Insta- death spells (WARNING!! Rant with vulgar language)

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Treebore
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Insta- death spells (WARNING!! Rant with vulgar language)

Post by Treebore »

So KIDS stay out!!

Another fundamental difference between me and the panzy 3E and 4E players,

Insta death spells are game breakers.
DUUUUUHHH!!!!

I guess since its so HARD to make a new character in 3E and 4E it wastes too much of their valuable time (how about getting rid of the need to refer to the books every 5 minutes?).

Gee! It sucks to die because I failed one roll! Guess you have never been shot! Or even shot at?

Or played WoW and had your character die again, within seconds after you spent 5 minutes walking back to where you died last time.

They want realism, but not too much! Dying is a bit too real, ain't it?

Sorry! But I just read how they are tweaking more game breakers like Etherealness and Scrying. Its too hard to account for such spells! I guess no one at WOTC or who plays 3E ever read the spell book !!! Plenty of ways to counter Etherealness and Scrying, etc...

I guess too many people are weak in the areas of planning , fore thought, and foresight!!

I guess thats why a DM should never run a game past levels he has ever played a character at.

Of course if you run a DM PC so you can learn how to play such characters as you run the game the all knowing players get upset at the DM's cheating and abuse of the game.

I think I have come to realize my real problem with 3E, and soon 4E, is the mamby pamby whimp players who cry every time their character gets a paper cut!! Plus the DM's who insist they are "facilitators" who are not antagonists, they are not trying to kill the PC's, etc... ad nauseum mamby pamby whimp crap!

What happened to real games? Where your PC's life was really on the line? Where the only thing between your PC and death was a bit of luck and quick thinking?

No wonder they lambast Tomb of Horrors and Ravenloft so much, their such whimp a** cowards they can't even deal with imaginary death!

Grow up whimps!! At least have enough guts to die an imaginary death!!

Have enough guts to deal with the fact your PC died because you were dumb s**T and took on those 6 monsters by yourself! Or that your the idiot who insisted on going off by yourself! Or that, yes, you had a spell that could have made you immune to disintegrate, or greatly increased your save, or made your castle immune to etherealness or Scrying, but you were TOO MUCH OF A DUMB SHIT TO USE IT despite the warnings given to you by your DM!! Despite being too stupid to consider the fact that you have enemies that are just as bad ass as you are, so defend against them like you would defend against yourself!!

Get your collective heads out of your collective arses and try and use that pea someone saw fit to stick inside your skull!!!

Plus, are DM's too stupid to warn their players? To have NPC's give them advice on defending themselves? To point out they have high level enemies who can go invisible (Improved), who can walk through walls!! Who can plane travel and by pass defenses with ease?

No, DM's can't be expected to do that. DM's and players are too stupid to read up on defensive spells and USE THEM!.

No! Instead the game wll be whimpified even further so thatthe stupid players and inexperienced and pathetic DM's might be able to run a "fair game"!!

I say take this whimp ass game and shove it up their asses!!!

/END RANT!!!
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Post by serleran »

So, how do you really feel? Want me to share my view? ;)

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Post by andakitty »

I have three things to say.

One; Try not to let it get to you, Treebore. You might give yourself a stroke.

Two; I agree with you.

Three; I would love to have you as a player in a Stormbringer game or even more, my BRP S&S game. You'd fit right in.

Oh, maybe four things; I think you should post this at rpg.net. It would start a right shit-storm. And I would love some of those punks to have strokes or something. Also, we could get banned and not go there and risk strokes ourselves anymore.

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Post by SoulCatcher78 »

This is the reason us old timers learned to generate multiple characters at one time, . You never know when you're going to need to use your backup!

Besides, it goes both ways...if you cant get disintigrated, neither can the opposition.

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Post by Treebore »

andakitty wrote:
I have three things to say.

One; Try not to let it get to you, Treebore. You might give yourself a stroke.

Two; I agree with you.

Three; I would love to have you as a player in a Stormbringer game or even more, my BRP S&S game. You'd fit right in.

Oh, maybe four things; I think you should post this at rpg.net. It would start a right shit-storm. And I would love some of those punks to have strokes or something. Also, we could get banned and not go there and risk strokes ourselves anymore.

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Post by moriarty777 »

I kinda curious what spurred this on... but at the same time I'm afraid to ask.

It's gotta be more than the usual 3.x and upcoming 4E nonsense.

For the record though... I agree completely.

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Post by Breakdaddy »

I agree, Treebore.
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Post by Treebore »

moriarty777 wrote:
I kinda curious what spurred this on... but at the same time I'm afraid to ask.

It's gotta be more than the usual 3.x and upcoming 4E nonsense.

For the record though... I agree completely.

Moriarty the Red

Etherealness and Scrying now "break the game". Guess whimpifying Disintegrate, Slay Living, etc... wasn't enough for the panzies.
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Post by Rhuvein »

andakitty wrote:
Oh, maybe four things; I think you should post this at rpg.net. It would start a right shit-storm. And I would love some of those punks to have strokes or something. Also, we could get banned and not go there and risk strokes ourselves anymore.

Hehe, that would be hilarious. I'd even jump in to fuel the fire!!
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Post by Treebore »

Tempting, but I don't want anyone to read the post and think that I hate 3E. I don't hate 3E, I am just sickened by the panzies who insist on making it a panzy game, and have gotten their way.
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Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Post by jman5000 »

too bad treebore, you are no longer a "target market"... these changes that I'm hearing about for this next edition - only reinforce in my mind at least that people at Wizards or hasbro or whatever it's called has seen the winds of change, and as the saying goes, if you can't beat them, join them...

This mini-rant in some ways (ok, HUGE GENERALIZATION COMING UP) reminds me of some of the old grognard board game players, you know, the ones that only play 1960's era WW2 simulation board games - and have only played that one game and will only ever play that game, and look upon all these other board game players with equal parts horror, disdain, bafflement and wonder as to why they haven't yet found the utter, true and complete perfection found only in this 1960's era WW2 board game.

I wonder...

has 4th edition not so much lost it's appeal but rather lost our understanding as to 'why'? pretty sure, the powers that be aren't simply making changes for the sake of change... but then again... what do I know
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Post by Treebore »

Oh they aren't changing things to simply change things, they are changing it so the whimpy's don't get their feelings hurt when they are too stupid to keep their character alive. Which is apparently a large percentage of their customer base.

Besides, I cna understand why people stay with the old board games, even the old editions of D&D. They have it figured out, they have come up with fixes that they like, and makes the game play the way they want it to, they still have plenty of fun playing it.

So why spend a bunch of money to get something that you'll have to fix all over again to get it to be the game you want to play, when you already have the game you like or love to play?
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Post by Omote »

Treebore wrote:
...I am just sickened by the panzies who insist on making it a panzy game, and have gotten their way.

And you have 4e. The game where Clerics arn't needed anymore (YES, Bill Slavisick stated this exactly). What a bunch of crap, I so agree with your friggin' rant Treebore that I feel the need to blow something up right now!!!
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Think they'll have +3 NERF Swords of Stern Chastisement? That way characters can be pummeled, and feel a sense of loss and/or shame without ever actually having to be in physical danger?

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Post by serleran »

No, they will have things like "the eye of shame:" when you use the eye of shame, select something about your character (such as an attribute score, a modifier, a class ability, a piece of equipment, your XP total, or even the amount of gold pieces you possess.) If any creature able to see or hear you does not have the same (in terms of numerical values, they must have more than you), they are chastised and rendered prone and defenseless for as long as you concentrate on the effect. Neat, huh?

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Post by seskis281 »

Tree my man - don't let it get to you lol.... WOTC will do what they will to jack up sales - wait, Microsoft does this too... maybe it's something in the water in Seattle and the NW... wait, I know... THEY'VE FLOURIDATED THE RAIN! They're polluting our precious bodily fluids.. Purity of Essence.. (ok, so a Stangelove reference maybe a bit over the top here).

Seriously, to some extent its a generational thing - a lot of gamers out there were produced in the era of save and restart quickly so "death" in a computer game has no meaning, so please god don't dare let it happen in an RPG! No need for clerics?? Well, might as well get rid of the Monster Manual altogether for simplicity's sake and have stat blocks that read:

"The Orcs fight with short swords. Over three rounds they can hurt 1d4 players randomly for up to (but not more than) 25% of HP; After RD 3 the Players slay the Orcs - please describe with as much gore as possible."

I returned to gaming with 3rd Edition. At first it excited me, and had a lot I liked. What I liked is now in C&C and what I didn't I had houseruled out, although like many of us I still ran into players yanking books to prove my houserules were "wrong." I still remember never getting a player to understand why his rogue couldn't Flank on every attack, especially in the 12x12 dungeon room filled with a.) Party, b.) 3 or 4 baddass creatures, and c.) a magically enchanted floor that changed gravity ever round so it felt like a whirly top. I'm not a 3.x hater... I just gave up on it as a useful system when WOTC went for the unending feats and power-ups to do what you're ranting about.

Interestingly enough I just purchased the one and only WOTC product I have gotten in 3 years: Greyhawk Ruins. I bought it for only two reasons: as a lover of Greyhawk I still feel the need to get everything (even this recent "stuff"), and secondly I wanted to have it to compare to Gary's real castle material when it comes out. Something in this "Expedition" is telling - and I don't want to disparage Eric Mona because I do think he's a good writer and a true lover of Greyhawk - but at one point Iuz actually appears, and the text reads, I swear "this encounter shouldn't kill any of the players, just give them a scare and make them aware of the stakes" -- a bit of a paraphrase I guess, but the sentiment proves the point.

A party comes face to face with Iuz the Old One and everyone of them should live to tell the tale. Hmmmm...... Demigods aren't what they used to be, are they?

Just for the record, when I ran 3rd edition for several years I had players die... some as heroes, a few because they role-played their zealous characters to the hilt, a few through stupidity in their character's choices. My wife will never let me forget her character died the 2nd session of her first game with me. The ones who died "in character," either as heroes or through character flaws ultimately enjoyed the games more and appreciated their longer living characters more because of this.

So I say, forget about 4e and WOTC. Up with the Crusade. I didn't even go to GenCon and I just bought about $125 worth of C&C stuff the last couple of days - finally got my Crusader subscription this morning!

From what I see, a lot of people are going to start casting about for alternatives to WOTC, and those that buy up all the 4e stuff will just have to go through all this again around 2010 or 2012 when 4.5 comes out, then again with 5e, and so on and so on.... wait, D&D is beginning to resemble the Rocky movies in terms of sequels.

So there's my missive to add to your rant... not nearly as angry, but probably more verbose.
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Post by stoneshape »

Treebore

I agree 100%. And coming from a gentleman such as yourself you must be #$@^@&$!

Just never concide to this at your table. As a player wisen and embolden your fellows. Give confidence to your DM. As you no doubt do, march on bro.

I also would like to know what ignited this brew?

Oh, and seskis your 3rd paragragh says volumes.

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Post by Treebore »

The 4E WOTC designers changing Ehterealness and Scrying because they "break the game". Whats next? Allowing only swords because blunt weapons break bones?
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Post by DangerDwarf »

seskis281 wrote:
"The Orcs fight with short swords. Over three rounds they can hurt 1d4 players randomly for up to (but not more than) 25% of HP; After RD 3 the Players slay the Orcs - please describe with as much gore as possible."

What is scary, is that I can actually see something like that happening.

With their talk of a "new way of thinking about encounters" with creatures to serve as a specific role in an encounter.

The role in your quote? To tax 25% of the party's resources.

Yay.

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Post by SavageRobby »

Eh, with 3.5 Wizards lost me as believing they made real D&D. So the things they're planning on doing doesn't come as a shocker.

And you know what? If I hadn't played real D&D before, and other older school games, I might even like what they're shoveling out. A man who has only tasted shit doesn't know any better, y'know? It fits with their target market (which we ain't anymore). It fits with trying to get new people to play. It fits with their competition with MMORPGs and video RPGs. It fits with this newer, softer generation of gamers.

In some ways, its too bad it has the D&D label on it. I'd actually be interested to see what they were cooking up as a small time RPG. It'd be fun. But as the flagship brand of RPGs ... well, I'm not so sure.

What is funny is that, as a GM, I don't like Divinations and Teleports and Etherealness and other powers like that, and do my utmost to restrict them to players. (They never just "find" those, they gotta research them.) So I understand where they're coming from. But that is a case where they're hoist in their own petard, I mean, giving players a choice of a new spell, *any* spell, every level? What genius came up with that?

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Post by Fiffergrund »

Amen, brother Treebore. Amen.

That matches my feelings about, oh, 90% of the spell and rule revisions in 3E+. Think about how many things in 3E are meant specifically to make things easier on the players/garner fewer complaints from wimps?

This latest butchery just continues the trend.

Give me 5 old-school gamers and 5 gamers weaned on 3E, and put them in a tournament with any game system, and there'd be no contest. The old-school approach to gaming produces smarter play in a challenging environment.
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Post by Telhawk »

Quote:
And you have 4e. The game where Clerics arn't needed anymore (YES, Bill Slavisick stated this exactly).

Omote, this (almost) had me laughing out loud. As I watch, more alien genetic material is being injected - and indigenous genetic material being deleted, apparently - in an effort to produce the Perpetual Money-Making Machine (yes, I know I'm mixing my metaphors, but I like the image, so nyah nyah).

Well in this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!

My - and, I would like to think, our - discontent over a "game" that we're no longer involved in stems from a sense of outraged propriety more than anything else; every step that WotC has taken in order to "modify" and "better" the original has only rendered it more hobbled and straitjacketed as a game...even while the cash continues to pour in. Monte Cook's statement about how the nightmarish d20 Call of Cthulhu sold out its first two printings, so it must be good, is a perfect capstone for exactly why this group and Troll Lords stand on opposite ends of the spectrum.
D&D without clerics...Bill, you make me laugh. All best with your hobbled alien money-making machine...meanwhile, I've gotta get back to my student and, later tonight, start thinking about how best to get Aramet (my cleric, natch) the best spells for the next session...

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Post by Omote »

Let me clarify a bit, Clerics WILL be in the 4e game. However, Bill said that parties without clerics won't be penalized for being so. Long gone are the days where a party gets into a fight, and a cleric will be needed to heal the party immediately there after... Oh really?!

Nuts.

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Post by johns »

It appears to me that 4E is just a bunch of geeks at WOTC making their house rules official. And who knew that every other edition of D&D was broken and un-fun? Amazing.

And do yourself a favor - don't read their new design diary on dragons - essentially they've improved the game by making all of the numbers BIGGER. Real chicken shit stuff.

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Post by serleran »

I love how, in one hit, the fighter can reduce the dragon's HP by half, to under 500, which means... something like 250 damage in one shot. Woohoo... exciting.

250 or 25... same difference. Only, one is believable, and the other just "shock."

Oh, and I really dig that a cleric can heal anytime they score a critical hit. Clerics are now vampiric. I'm so playing one.

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Post by gideon_thorne »

*chuckles*

*in 300 movie style voice* "WE ARE CRUSADERS!"
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Post by Omote »

serleran wrote:
I love how, in one hit, the fighter can reduce the dragon's HP by half, to under 500, which means... something like 250 damage in one shot. Woohoo... exciting.

250 or 25... same difference. Only, one is believable, and the other just "shock."

Oh, and I really dig that a cleric can heal anytime they score a critical hit. Clerics are now vampiric. I'm so playing one.

I read that today and thought the same thing. WTF. Ooooh, beware ancient red dragons, even though a skilled fighter can take them down in 3-4 hits.
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Post by Geleg »

great thread!

I'm with you Treebore. I don't get the wimpiness - especially since it is acompanied by uber-kewl, micromanaged feats, etc. What's the point of all the micromanaging if it's all only about resource management [a bit of an exaggeration, but still ...]? If I want resource management I'll play Civilization.

My biggest rant: all those who speak about 'trying out a new build' in this campaign. "build"? I thought they were characters!

BTW, this is why I love C&C, AD&D and the WIlderlands. No f*ing around there, or you die ... and fast!!!

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Post by seskis281 »

"New build" - this becomes especially true and apparent when players spend more time during sessions with stacks of books making their characters and leveling than actually playing lol.

As I said, if they're going this route why not get rid of all the stat blocks and use dice just to roll up how many rounds it takes to slay the bestie?
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Post by jman5000 »

[quote="johns"]It appears to me that 4E is just a bunch of geeks at WOTC making their house rules official. [/quote]

funny, thought this was exactly was C&C was as well
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