Kenzer Co. out of D&D game

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:04 pm

Did anyone else catch that Kenzer's license has been dropped for both HM and D&D?

I thought I'd post because with other threads discussing use of d20 materials I thought I'd say I always thought Kenzer produced some really good 3.x material (I just mentioned James Mishler's Lost Tomb of Kruk-Ma-Kali elsewhere as a favorite), and it really does show that (whether for good or for bad) WotC is consolidating the D&D brand name back exclusively....

Perhaps Kalamar might have a future with C&C similar to the Wilderlands or the Goodman Games conversions. It certainly has a lot of players out there.
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kaomera · Post by **kaomera** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:18 pm

My understanding was that Kenzer will continue to produce OGL products, although they will be finding a new system upon which to base future HackMaster products. WotC has always wanted the "D&D" brand to be exclusive to whatever edition they are currently pushing, and you can't really argue from a business standpoint. I was really surprised back around when 3.0 came out that they actually allowed that Italian company to produce the "novelty-sized" reprints of older edition stuff.

The issue is that, regardless of having more or less the same name, the different editions (and some of the revisions / sub-editions) of D&D are really not the same game. They where not written with the same intent, for the same target audience, or based upon the same sources. Luckily this has (at least in part) produced Castles & Crusades. Would C&C have appeared if WotC was still printing a "collectors' edition" of 1e AD&D? Or would the Troll Lords be supporting the old rules? I don't know, but (and it pains me to say this...) I think C&C is actually much more the game I want to be playing, at least right now, than 1e...
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:32 pm

Look at C&C as 1E with some brilliant house rules.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:57 pm

Kenzer announced it some time ago. I suspect that any new material will be put through their Aces and Eights game system.
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seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:05 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Kenzer announced it some time ago. I suspect that any new material will be put through their Aces and Eights game system.

Ah I see... I just missed that one. Don't know Aces and Eights.

Still, just wanted to give kudos to the stuff they had done well.. just wishful thinking on my part that some of the Kalamar stuff might find a connection with C&Cers... I know others around here had some fondness for it as well.
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cleaverthepit · Post by **cleaverthepit** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:09 pm

I believe Aces and Eight contains the genes for their own game system. Hackmaster, as I understand it, will be regeared a little but still remain like AD&D on steroids (without the humor) - though I did not have a chance to talk with any of the Kenzer crew about it.

Davis

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:30 pm

cleaverthepit wrote:
I believe Aces and Eight contains the genes for their own game system. Hackmaster, as I understand it, will be regeared a little but still remain like AD&D on steroids (without the humor) - though I did not have a chance to talk with any of the Kenzer crew about it.

Davis

So Hackmaster could be bearable to read?
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:06 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
So Hackmaster could be bearable to read?

I found several of the books worth reading.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:27 am

Actually some of it was. I just wasn't impressed by the humor in the game.
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Dyne · Post by **Dyne** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:26 am

WotC has canceled every single license that has come up in the last few years. The reasoning has become obvious recently: 4th edition. I'm sure they don't want other companies producing 3.x material which would compete with their overpriced 4e books.

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:37 pm

I like Hackmaster and I really loved what I saw of Aces & Eights at the Con. The production values were extremely high on that game and I'm very happy for the Kenzer crew for selling out of the game at the con.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:48 pm

Aces & Eights is pretty close to the older editions of the D&D mechanic in some respects, kinda. But it's far enough to be a different game. As for Hackmaster, haven't cared about that game in 5 years or so.

I got a copy of the HMPHB and the HMGMG signed by Jolly (Fame Rub area) Any buyers?
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:51 pm

I got the Kalamar hardback, and a trilogy of modules, but for some reason none of it really clicked with me.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:55 pm

Not surprising, seeing as there hasn't been much coming from Kenzer in that area anyway for some 4 years roughly. Still have my non-d20 KoK and the first couple of HackMaster things, if I wanted to use them. Want to see A&E, but am looking more forward to development of the world, especially the natives.

old school gamer · Post by **old school gamer** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:08 pm

I don't think that Aces and Eights are going to be the same as HackMaster in that it is a skill based game as opposed to level based.

Celestian · Post by **Celestian** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:52 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
So Hackmaster could be bearable to read?

The hackmaster rule books are a great read. The silly rules for gnome titans and a large amount of the quirks and flaws... thats the bits that should be dropped.

The only reason Kenzer had the D&D logo was that TSR reproduced a lot of the KoDT comics in the Dragon CD Archive and it's believed by many that this was a "out of court" settlement for that.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:24 pm

I may have given Hackmaster a serious look as a gaming alternative but the many many volumes (splat books) of monsters discouraged the notion of even doing so...

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Emryys · Post by **Emryys** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:47 pm

Kalamar written for C&C... Hmmmm...
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Wes · Post by **Wes** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:49 am

Emryys wrote:
Kalamar written for C&C... Hmmmm...

I'm under the impression that future Kalamar stuff will be rules-light or rules nuetral - as to be easily melded with other RPG systems. Check out the campaign hardback and KoK atlas- great books and usable with any system.

As for Aces and Eights vs. a new Hackmaster: I would venture a guess that much of a new Hackmaster (if it did happen) would be based on the Aces and Eights engine, but would maintain the level-based aspect. Western genre games just lend themselves to skill-based games, where as fantasy games run well as level-based, IMHO. I would also expect much of the siller humor aspect to fade out of a new edition - if that ever happened. I'm under the impression that much of the sillier things were mandated by WoTC. But I could be wrong.

Another side note to Aces and Eights. The guys and gals at Kenzerco report that their last copy of the book was sold at Gencon. That's two months to sell through their stock. I call that a home run!

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:27 pm

Ok, this is something I can actually help on. I'm a Hackmaster nut, and can answer a lot of the questions and comments above.

First off, Kenzer didn't lose the license, they chose not to renew it. They got it initially as part of the settlement from the lawsuit (over the Dragon Magazine CDs, which Kenzer never agreed to or was compensated for). After that, WotC, who had retained the right to inspect every new "hack" before allowing it, began sitting on stuff for months at a time, causing Kenzer to not be able to get things out on schedule as promised. About halfway through the license, the tactic worked, and Kenzer knew they weren't going to renew it, not wanting the hassle to continue.

So, yes, there will be a new HackMaster 5th edition (which, in case you didn't know, is also part of the joke, since HM4 was actually the first, being named that after the game in the comic strip). It's possible the new system from Aces & Eights will be used, or some variation, but it's not set in stone. They're going to want to retain some element of compatibility with the older material, since not doing so would defeat the purpose of the system. Not sure how they're going to do it yet.

Garweeze Wurld is no longer the official, default setting for it. Kalamar will take its place (a choice I completely disagree with, but oh well).

As for the humor element, that's only half the picture, and is... optional, for lack of a better description. On one hand, it was fun to actually create the game from the comic strip, which in and of itself was a parody of AD&D for power gamers. On the other hand, though, they actually took the opportunity to effectively and faithfully reprint AD&D, cleaning it up and enhancing it with the best elements of 2E, to pretty much give us what 3.0 would have been if WotC had never been born and taken over TSR. Even better, they gave it a lot of thought, and were extremely faithful to the original style and intent of the game, and instead of just going for "the joke" that everyone expected, they actually played both sides of the fence (and did it successfully, amazingly enough). What I mean by that is that they knew there would be hack-n-slash power gamer types jumping on it (y'know, Rifts players), so they intentionally left some of the loopholes that rules-rapists would naturally exploit. But before you make any assumptions about that, take notice that they then went and created counter rules for those loopholes, and placed all that info in the GM's guide! Absolutely brilliant foresight on their part.

For example, there are things players can take for their character to give them more advantages during creation, and one of those is alcoholism. Seems harmless enough from a player's perspective, but little do the players know that there are extensive charts and probabilities in the GM's guide to determine just how badly your character needs a drink, can avoid booze, and how bad it'll screw you up when you slip and go for the gusto. Even better, they then made sure to toss a random bottle of hooch in every damned module, so there's no way you won't at least see it sitting there during play and have to start "saving" against it. lol

So, bottom line, HM can be used as a serious, classic AD&D game, as a light-hearted parody of gaming, as a simplified ruleset if preferred for more cinematic gaming, or as a die-hard, rules-lawyering, kill everything and take all the treasure sort of game. It's got all the bases covered, and to be honest, it took me quite awhile before I realized that this is what they'd done (I made the same, common mistake early on and assumed it was both forcefully satirical and absolutely hack-n-slash).

And if you're wondering what the big difference is between C&C and HM, it is this: HackMaster is what 3.0 could have been had it stayed on-course, with a lot of the fluff from 2E removed, and just the logical enhancements one would expect with a new edition. It's truly just AD&D with a facelift. Castles & Crusades is, on the other hand, took things farther back, to the "brown book" level of OD&D, and gave it a facelift, using the benefits of 30 years of gaming experience. The two games aren't in competition with each other, and both fill a parallel niche very nicely; two sides of the same historic coin.

Oh, and regarding the comment about all the Hacklopedia of Beasts volumes, you've sort of missed the point just a little, but that's ok. You don't have to have all of those, nor do you need them. That was more on the satire side of things, to poke fun at the hack-n-slash mentality that just loves monsters, more monsters, and even more monsters. Like AD&D, there are just a few core books that are needed. All you really need for monsters is the "Field Manual," which is the renamed Monster Manual, and if you need a little extra, like Fiend Folio, just grab the Monster Matrix. They've also combined the best of all the zillions of manuals into just a few, directed at character classes (such as The Combatant's Guide to Slaughtering Foes, which is for Fighters, or the Spellslinger's Guide to Wurld Domination, for Magic Users, etc). It's actually pretty cool and simple.

Oh, if you haven't seen it, take a look at the GM's screen. It shows the traditional pic of the fighter, bravely facing ahead, sword in hand and maiden crouched behind him. However, when combat actually starts, the GM flips a hidden panel over, and the picture changes to the fighter getting ripped to shreds by a monster. lol And to poke fun at the whole "player's screen" concept, they created a huge Player's Mat, that looks like a castle, with a little door to move your figures through or toss dice out through, and even special places outlined for you to keep your dice. It's friggin hilarious, even moreso because it's actually useful.

Anyway, I just love both HM and C&C, and am looking forward to seeing where both of them go over time. Sure, I'm wary of the changes coming for HM5 (which I begged them to call 4.5, but they didn't get the joke), but I'm sure it'll do fine.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:41 pm

My problem with HM wasn't the rules. Those were solid and quite good. The humor however seemed to move from parody to damn near insulting in my book. Maybe I was a bit thin skinned being raw from WOTC's treatment of older edition fans. Maybe not. All I remember about looking over the books when I was looking for an alternative to 3e was that the humor seemed like an insult.
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Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:00 pm

Insulting? How so? I can't fathom how someone could view it that way.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:09 pm

Julian,

Have you ever read the "Knights of the Dinner Table" comic? Its that kind of humor, from "Jolly" Blackburn, that permeates HM. I have by no means bought a lot of Hackmaster, but the half dozen or so books and modules I own are all of that same "tongue in cheek" humor about gamers.

so if you found any of it insulting I would appreciate knowing the "gist" of the poor humor and which book you found it in, so if I have it I can look and see if I missed something, or see if maybe you took it as insulting because you don't know the context of "Knights of the Dinnertable", which my kids also love.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:47 pm

That may be it. And it's been so long since I read any of them I can't remember what it was that came across so badly. Like I said I was a bit raw from some things by WOTC and the fanboys so I may have taken it wrong.

And no I never read KODT but I may look the comics over some and get a feel for it.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:05 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
That may be it. And it's been so long since I read any of them I can't remember what it was that came across so badly. Like I said I was a bit raw from some things by WOTC and the fanboys so I may have taken it wrong.

And no I never read KODT but I may look the comics over some and get a feel for it.

We do enjoy the comic. I even subscribed to it for a couple fo years, and will again subscribe once the VA quits screwing my wife over about rating her disablity.

She can't drive and has to spend 22 out of 24 hours in bed, or laying on the couch, or maybe sit in a chair, but they say she only deserves 60% for her service connected disability. Not to mention other problems directly caused by her primary condition.

Yeah, they are very intentionally screwing her around, since we gave them plenty of medical documentation, and every one of her doctors, including about half a dozen VA doctors, all support her claim. Plus sent them quotes of their own guidelines showing why she should be getting several thousand more per month, and two years+ of back pay.

Sorry to go off about that, but I guess I just needed to get it off my chest, again. For about the 600th time.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:19 pm

You have my sympathies on that. I never served due to some issues but I think that those that did serve deserve alot more than they are getting.
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jaybird216 · Post by **jaybird216** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:20 pm

Kurgan wrote:
over the Dragon Magazine CDs, which Kenzer never agreed to or was compensated for).

Ironically, Blackburn's Shadis magazine sent me a rejection letter for some art that I submitted to them at GenCon in 1995. A few months later, I was flipping through the new issue and Lo! There was one of my pieces.

Not only wasn't I compensated, I was never even informed. If I hadn't bought the mag that day, I'd have never even known. Needless to say, they never got another dime from me, and they never will.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:42 pm

jaybird216 wrote:
Ironically, Blackburn's Shadis magazine sent me a rejection letter for some art that I submitted to them at GenCon in 1995. A few months later, I was flipping through the new issue and Lo! There was one of my pieces.

Not only wasn't I compensated, I was never even informed. If I hadn't bought the mag that day, I'd have never even known. Needless to say, they never got another dime from me, and they never will.

I'd almost be willing to bet it was a snafu of some sort. Y'know, one person turns the piece down, another stumbles across it and thinks it's on the to-do list, --that sort of thing. I don't know the people, but Blackburn is a regular poster on the K&C forums, and has always come across as a really nice, friendly guy. Hard to imagine he'd ever knowingly screw someone over. Did you ever try to talk to him about it afterwards to find out what had happened and get paid?

jaybird216 · Post by **jaybird216** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:17 pm

I was young and inexperienced, so I just figured I'd been hornswaggled. It wasn't even the point of the money, but the fact that I'd never have known if I wasn't a loyal reader. On one hand, it was cool to be published, but on the other it felt pretty crappy.

I heard that the magazine tanked a little while after that (I never bought another issue, though I'd thumb through now and then to see if anything else made it in), so I chalked it up to karma. Later on, I discovered K&Co but it just dredged up the old grudge.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:18 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Ok, this is something I can actually help on. I'm a Hackmaster nut, and can answer a lot of the questions and comments above...

Cool ... thanks Kurgan for all that info, I might look a bit more into it and see where to go from there.

M
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