In the thread on things we dislike in rpgs, several mentioned thieves' guilds and how they were unlikely. So, I saw something the other night that I would like to share.
Have any of you seen Rome, the second season yet? In the second episode there is a very interesting sequence which illustrates EXACTLY how such a guild could get started. After Julius Caesar is killed, there is a power vacuum into which Marc Antony steps. However, Antony is either not as good at controlling the mob as Caesar was, or just doesn't care. But when Rome's economy begins to suffer due to the depredations of gangs on the Aventine, he sends 'representatives' to sort things out. The offer is a monthly stipend to the gangs in exchange for them toning down their warfare and other minor activities enough so that normal commerce can flourish again, or else. This sounds like how a thieves' guild could begin and even become stable enough to last, to me. Especially since the representatives are really scary and give the gangs not much choice...
Theives Guilds...in Rome
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SoulCatcher78
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The more there is to lose, the more real the need to deal with an element who it would be more expensive to root out. If the city is large enough to include a large poor community, the chance of gangs running things in that area become quite real. Branching out into other parts of the city is just a matter of time and ambition on their parts.
The Yggsburgh book deals with this in a manner that is unfamiliar but makes more sense as you read through it. Theft is inevitable so we might as well tax it.
The Yggsburgh book deals with this in a manner that is unfamiliar but makes more sense as you read through it. Theft is inevitable so we might as well tax it.
Has anyone ever heard of Los Angeles? Philedelphia? New York? Gangs/organized crime groups are RAMPANT in the larger cities of the USA.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sure, but I was thinking on lines of 'how would a thieves' guild get started? In 'Rome', there were numerous gangs; what Antony did basically legitimized them, ergo the start of a 'guild'. There are similarities to modern organized crime, but to be the same the maifa would have to be blatantly supported by the government. We aren't quite that bad off yet, are we? Another very crucial difference was, the streets of Rome at the time were packed with ex-soldiers with not a lot of legitimate jobs to go around, I guess. Apparently it was just totally out of control.
andakitty wrote:
Sure, but I was thinking on lines of 'how would a thieves' guild get started? In 'Rome', there were numerous gangs; what Antony did basically legitimized them, ergo the start of a 'guild'. There are similarities to modern organized crime, but to be the same the maifa would have to be blatantly supported by the government. We aren't quite that bad off yet, are we? Another very crucial difference was, the streets of Rome at the time were packed with ex-soldiers with not a lot of legitimate jobs to go around, I guess. Apparently it was just totally out of control.
As far as I know Italy is still that bad. Officially the US does not support or condone "criminal activities", they just don't try very hard to eliminate it. Just "control" it.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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SoulCatcher78
- Hlobane Orc
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andakitty wrote:
Sure, but I was thinking on lines of 'how would a thieves' guild get started? In 'Rome', there were numerous gangs; what Antony did basically legitimized them, ergo the start of a 'guild'. There are similarities to modern organized crime, but to be the same the maifa would have to be blatantly supported by the government. We aren't quite that bad off yet, are we? Another very crucial difference was, the streets of Rome at the time were packed with ex-soldiers with not a lot of legitimate jobs to go around, I guess. Apparently it was just totally out of control.
Think of the 1920s and the racial segregation of neighborhoods in places like NY, Chicago, and LA. The police were unable to communicate in the most commonly spoken languages in some of these areas (and a helathy mistrust of authority) so they were left to their own devices for protection. The criminal organizations were a natural extension of these "protection" services, collecting a monthly tithe from the occupants of the neighborhoods. One thing leads to another.
From an RPG standpoint, this works well if you have a variety of human populations (something like Wilderlands or even Faerun have the option of different human races with distinct cultural differences).
Okay, I'll grant that there are circumstances in which a Thieves' Guild (or something like it) could come into existence.
It doesn't address my complaint in any way, because I was talking about Classes at the time, and the way the whole "Guild-based" Class system dictates the path of all character development. Even in a world where there are Thieves' Guilds, it is still absurd to suggest that all Thieves must belong to such an organization.
It doesn't address my complaint in any way, because I was talking about Classes at the time, and the way the whole "Guild-based" Class system dictates the path of all character development. Even in a world where there are Thieves' Guilds, it is still absurd to suggest that all Thieves must belong to such an organization.
Yep, back then and in recent years in Italy and the US and today in Russia and other countries.
Not just thieve's guilds/mobs, but assassins, rioters, troublemakers, rabble rousers, arsonists, hecklers , et. al.
Just think. The populace of Rome at that time were the people (many listed above) who frequented the Coliseum to see the Circus Maximus and/or watch gladiators fight to the death, etc. They loved blood and guts and it was part of their everyday life in the city and they watched their leaders engage in this activity as well.
Caesar had intelligence, charisma, wisdom, dexterity and could control the masses, mobs and common populace quite easily. He had gifted oratory skills. He was from the noble class and one of Fortune's Favorite.
Marc Antony had some skills but was essentially a thug with little intelligence or wisdom. He had strength and con. He was Caesar's cousin I believe, and was able to play that along with his limited leadership ability to step in and lead the masses against the conspirators who killed Caesar (some believe he was one, or one who knew of the plot), so he was just saving his own neck.
Ancient Rome, IMO is easily the most interesting and amazing period of history. It had culture, law, oration, engineering, government, literature ~ right next to crucifixion, gladiator fights, poison, assassination, decimation in the ranks . . . etc.
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"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth
Not just thieve's guilds/mobs, but assassins, rioters, troublemakers, rabble rousers, arsonists, hecklers , et. al.
Just think. The populace of Rome at that time were the people (many listed above) who frequented the Coliseum to see the Circus Maximus and/or watch gladiators fight to the death, etc. They loved blood and guts and it was part of their everyday life in the city and they watched their leaders engage in this activity as well.
Caesar had intelligence, charisma, wisdom, dexterity and could control the masses, mobs and common populace quite easily. He had gifted oratory skills. He was from the noble class and one of Fortune's Favorite.
Marc Antony had some skills but was essentially a thug with little intelligence or wisdom. He had strength and con. He was Caesar's cousin I believe, and was able to play that along with his limited leadership ability to step in and lead the masses against the conspirators who killed Caesar (some believe he was one, or one who knew of the plot), so he was just saving his own neck.
Ancient Rome, IMO is easily the most interesting and amazing period of history. It had culture, law, oration, engineering, government, literature ~ right next to crucifixion, gladiator fights, poison, assassination, decimation in the ranks . . . etc.
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte
"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax
"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte
"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax
"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth
"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax
"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth
They do not have to belong to any such organization, but not doing so has problems, such as... oh, let's say... fencing stolen goods, for example, or avoiding some of the more common run-ins with city guards. It is like any guild... membership has its advantages, disadvantages, and so does not belonging. These things are mentioned, purposefully, to be used by th DM as they want... which means totally ignoring them if you see no use for them, or making it into a viable part of the campaign, even integral. if you like.
Can you show me a reference in an AD&D core book where it explicitly states that a thief must, and i mean must be part of a "guild?" I can think of one such reference, as regards assassins in OAD&D, but that is only by the level title (Grandfather of Assassins, as I recall), but the description of the class mentions no such requirement (that I remember.) Oh, and yakuza in Oriental Adventures - they are the only one I can remember making such a mandate.
Don't get me wrong, I think a thieves guild is out of line in some settings, settlements, and campaigns... but the idea is interesting. Crime does not need to be organized, but when it is, it can make for some very arousing (hehe) adventures.
Can you show me a reference in an AD&D core book where it explicitly states that a thief must, and i mean must be part of a "guild?" I can think of one such reference, as regards assassins in OAD&D, but that is only by the level title (Grandfather of Assassins, as I recall), but the description of the class mentions no such requirement (that I remember.) Oh, and yakuza in Oriental Adventures - they are the only one I can remember making such a mandate.
Don't get me wrong, I think a thieves guild is out of line in some settings, settlements, and campaigns... but the idea is interesting. Crime does not need to be organized, but when it is, it can make for some very arousing (hehe) adventures.
*shrug* I just thought that episode was a reasonable insight into how a fantasy-type thieves guild might begin. Power vacuum, lazy leadership, something gets started that would not be so easy to stop.
It didn't strike me as something much related to real world organized crime. In the episode what Marc Antony did legitimized the gangs'activities. I don't know how accurate those events were, I was just looking at how a 'thieves guild' might get started in a fantasy setting. Like the Jhereg series. The Dragaerans allowed the organized crime because they found it useful from time to time, apparently. It seems a bit different from simple corruption, imo.
And I am sure I remember some stuff in the 1e PHB about not attracting the guilds' attention or performing contracts without permission. I had a hardnosed DM who enforced it.
It didn't strike me as something much related to real world organized crime. In the episode what Marc Antony did legitimized the gangs'activities. I don't know how accurate those events were, I was just looking at how a 'thieves guild' might get started in a fantasy setting. Like the Jhereg series. The Dragaerans allowed the organized crime because they found it useful from time to time, apparently. It seems a bit different from simple corruption, imo.
And I am sure I remember some stuff in the 1e PHB about not attracting the guilds' attention or performing contracts without permission. I had a hardnosed DM who enforced it.
I agree. I use thieves guilds all the time. Their greatest power is resources. Resources of man power, resources of information, resources of supplies. That is what unifies them. It allows them to accomplish things that they can't do alone.
ITs why guidls of any kind exist.
Yes, 1e, and 2E said watch it if you operate outside of a guild on their property. Quick way to die.
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ITs why guidls of any kind exist.
Yes, 1e, and 2E said watch it if you operate outside of a guild on their property. Quick way to die.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sure, Treebore. It just didn't look organized in Rome right about that time, you know? Just rival gangs and so much chaos commerce was threatened to the extent that things were ready to collapse. In short, what Antony did created the unification that probably would lead to the formation of a guild. That is what it looked like to me anyway.
Well, a lot of people initially thought the same about gangs in LA. At first they had no idea how organized they were. Officials went into fits when "chapters" showed up nation wide.
So Rome probably was shocked every time the "leaders" realized their were people in their home city that were about as powerful as they were.
So I would say it was probably a pretty realistic representation.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
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So Rome probably was shocked every time the "leaders" realized their were people in their home city that were about as powerful as they were.
So I would say it was probably a pretty realistic representation.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Re: Theives Guilds...in Rome
andakitty wrote:
several mentioned thieves' guilds and how they were unlikely.
Must not have heard of the Cour des Miracles ("miracles' court") in XVIIth century France - Paris. Unfortunately internet doesn't have much info on it, especially in English. So, it was a quarter in Paris, inhabited by the destitutes who were organized into a beggar guild, with their "elected king", and that had over time become a place of bandits and criminals of all sorts. So in real medieval life, this is close to a large thieves' guild...
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