Down points of C&C:

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slimykuotoan
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Down points of C&C:

Post by slimykuotoan »

What are they?

I guess mine are pretty superficial: lack of options due to a lack of published material (ie. CK Guide).

More, more, more!

That, and I need more monster books.
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Post by thedungeondelver »

No official multiclassing system, positive AC, slow release of carefully hand-crafted adventure and campaign world information

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Post by andakitty »

HERETICAL THREAD.

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Post by Omote »

Agreed. Heritics, indeed. I'm pretty sure C&C is good as is. Personally, I would have liked to see some kinda of simple/basic Skills system, but that might appear in th CKG.

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Post by Fiffergrund »

Two words: Castle Keeper.
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Post by moriarty777 »

thedungeondelver wrote:
No official multiclassing system, positive AC, slow release of carefully hand-crafted adventure and campaign world information

Personally, I miss THAC0 !!

Seriously, even though there have been many multiclassing variations, I think this is one of the weak points that has been commented on. At this point, if an official one came to be (via the CKG for example) I'm not sure if I'd switch from what I'm presently using. I'm genuinely happy overall and look forward to future products.

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Post by Fiffergrund »

moriarty777 wrote:
At this point, if an official one came to be (via the CKG for example) I'm not sure if I'd switch from what I'm presently using.

This is precisely why an official rule doesn't exist. People would change it to make themselves happy anyway. No solution was going to please everyone, so it was decided that there'd be no official ruling. Since then, several suggested methods have been published, but overall, there have been relatively few gripes about multi-classing since C&C was released.

I use 1E style multiclassing and it works great, as do many other methods. Why screw that up with "official" rules that just box people in?
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Post by huds0n »

My down points are i don't get to play it as much as i'd like!
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Post by seskis281 »

One of the things I like most about the system and TLG in general is the openness to ideas and individual expansions on the game, and the encouragement and sharing of the same here. I like that the upcoming CKG is constantly promoted as "alternatives" rather than as a core rule book.

Downsides that has changed to Upside:

At first I grumbled like others that material (especially setting stuff) seemed slow; now after trying my hand at writing RPG material I kind of feel the other way and given the size of TLG (which in the end is a small indpendent co.) I have the utmost respect for the Trolls and think Steve, Davis et all have done quite a remarkable job - especially in the area of modules.

Downsides:

Ordering and getting material - I think this downside is soon to be rectified with the new basket being bandied about.

So that leaves my one major suggestion: editing a little tighter. While I personally couldn't care less about a few typos here and there, I do know personally at least two people who I steered towards C&C who used this as a reason not to pursue it further. I know its superficial, but a lot of gamers out there have been spoiled by the "packaging" of their books and (regretfully) jump too fast towards rejecting the whole based on these sort of minor quibbles. I think just a little further editing would help "sell" this outstanding product better. Just my opinion.
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Post by Tank »

Not enough people play. It's hard to find a group, so you have to convert your own.

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Post by Philotomy Jurament »

Sometimes the SIEGE engine is used in places where I think a separate subsystem works better (e.g. surprise, saving throws); this may be a taste issue.

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Post by Maliki »

Not a whole lot to complain about, I would like to finally get the CKG just to look at some options, but nothing really stands out as a problem.
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Post by slimykuotoan »

seskis281 wrote:
So that leaves my one major suggestion: editing a little tighter. While I personally couldn't care less about a few typos here and there, I do know personally at least two people who I steered towards C&C who used this as a reason not to pursue it further. I know its superficial, but a lot of gamers out there have been spoiled by the "packaging" of their books and (regretfully) jump too fast towards rejecting the whole based on these sort of minor quibbles. I think just a little further editing would help "sell" this outstanding product better. Just my opinion.

Unfortunately I agree.

I picked up a recent C&C product and was somewhat taken back by the really poor quality of its text, so much so, that I finally turned to my wife and read a few sections aloud, to demonstrate to her the awkward sentencing, strange word choice, poor grammer, etc.

At one point -I regret to say- I finally exclaimed: "That's it, I'm only buying C&C core products from now on!"

Whoever edited the Players and M & T should be consulted for the newer products as well methinks...
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Post by Philotomy Jurament »

slimykuotoan wrote:
...poor grammer...

Whoops. That's always unfortunate...

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Post by slimykuotoan »

You got me there...but I'm not selling my poste...

...er...post.
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Post by serleran »

Not enough cowbell. We have didjeridoos but no cowbells? What the Davis?

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Post by ceallach66 »

I'm still new to it, but right now I'd have to say my only issues would be editing/typos and the encumbrance rules (and maybe it's just a matter of getting used to the latter).

Also, while I appreciate that one of the charms of C&C is that they don't give you rules for everything under the sun, there do seem to be a few minor but fundamental "rules gaps" here and there. I'd much prefer to create house rules to tweak things I'd like to do differently, rather than having to create them because there's isn't an existing rule in the book that covers it.

All in all though, I'm still very impressed.

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Post by ssfsx17 »

serleran wrote:
Not enough cowbell. We have didjeridoos but no cowbells? What the Davis?

And we've got walruses, but no eggmen or mailmen.

On a more serious note: the only thing C&C is lacking is the PHB in PDF format. I bought Condensed and M&T and I need more!
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Post by slimykuotoan »

Oh, and an optional skill system would be great.

And a wilderness/dungeoneers survival guide is needed.

Come on guys...I have money to spend here.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

slimykuotoan wrote:
Oh, and an optional skill system would be great.

See the free download in the Castle Zagyg section on the TLG website.

There's your official optional skills system. ^_~`

As to the original topic of this thread, see my post about 'personal perspective in the "whats wrong with 2e" thread. ^_~`
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Post by DangerDwarf »

My primary dislike is a minor one. I dislike the ascending nature of AC and BtH. As the game progresses it leads to large bonuses to a die roll.

A 10th level fighter with a 16 strength, specialized in the longsword and wielding a +2 weapon gets a+16 to hit.

I'm still one who prefers descending AC's and THAC0.

There's a few small things in M&T I didn't like but not enough to bitch too much about. Primarily is how the example shamans don't follow the standard XP value found in the chart at the beginning of the book. The XP for the shamans seems to be excessive as well. For example, the kobold shammy example would set him being worth more that 1,200XP. Seems a bit much. HOwever, at higher levels, it seems to work a lot better.

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Post by serleran »

Quote:
For example, the kobold shammy example would set him being worth more that 1,200XP.

Yes, well, that was written before there was an XP system... it never got changed. And, as for the "worth," they only get the XP if the shaman uses its spells... and its not common for a shaman to have 3rd level spells (and if it does, they probably shouldn't be used against a 1st level party unless you mean to kill them outright.)

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Post by DangerDwarf »

serleran wrote:
And, as for the "worth," they only get the XP if the shaman uses its spells.

I remember you saying that before. It just doesn't come across that way in the book.

I'm torn on the chart XP and trhe example XP at higher levels though. Using the kobold example at higher levels puts the XP in right about the correct range I think it should be.

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Post by Telhawk »

Gotta back up Philotomy Jurament here; the system on surprise and surprise attacks is a touch lacking. If there was a selection of five things I'd like to see addressed in future editions of the PHB, that'd be one of 'em. The C&C prime/non-prime saving throws I can live with...but it really puts the hurtin' on the poor individual who happens to get caught with an attack on a non-prime stat that he/she doesn't have any bonuses on.

And, since I believe that all instances of (hopefully) constructive criticism should be matched with a compliment, I really like the bit in M&T about land and property as a reward for advancing levels, with the specifics based on the nature of class. The exact nature of such, as always, is subject to negotiation/discussion between the player/s and the CK. I always felt that this was a weak spot in the AD&D systems - although they did mention about automatic followers garnered as an individual worked up to "name" level. The accumulation of property, however, I thought was a great touch that came with its own set of responsibilities and intrigues; subject to the player's level of interest, of course.

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Post by Treebore »

seskis281 wrote:
One of the things I like most about the system and TLG in general is the openness to ideas and individual expansions on the game, and the encouragement and sharing of the same here. I like that the upcoming CKG is constantly promoted as "alternatives" rather than as a core rule book.

Downsides that has changed to Upside:

At first I grumbled like others that material (especially setting stuff) seemed slow; now after trying my hand at writing RPG material I kind of feel the other way and given the size of TLG (which in the end is a small indpendent co.) I have the utmost respect for the Trolls and think Steve, Davis et all have done quite a remarkable job - especially in the area of modules.

Downsides:

Ordering and getting material - I think this downside is soon to be rectified with the new basket being bandied about.

So that leaves my one major suggestion: editing a little tighter. While I personally couldn't care less about a few typos here and there, I do know personally at least two people who I steered towards C&C who used this as a reason not to pursue it further. I know its superficial, but a lot of gamers out there have been spoiled by the "packaging" of their books and (regretfully) jump too fast towards rejecting the whole based on these sort of minor quibbles. I think just a little further editing would help "sell" this outstanding product better. Just my opinion.

What company do they buy RPG's from that do a better job than the PH second printing and the M&T second printing (heck, even the first)? IT sure isn't WOTC, or they are biased for other reasons. WOTC has quit a bit of grammar and spelling issues. Plus if they read Harry Potter they better demand their money back on the last book.
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Post by Philotomy Jurament »

DangerDwarf wrote:
I'm still one who prefers descending AC's and THAC0.

I've come back around to preferring descending ACs, too, although I'm not attached to THAC0 -- I just use the table. I like OD&D's approach to AC. For humanoids, at least, it's more like an "armor type." In fact, you could swap the numbers for letters, since very little modifies AC in OD&D.

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Post by Dangersaurus »

I prefer damage reduction to "+1 or better to hit." or "1/2 damage from slashing or piercing."

I'm sticking with the BtB style for now, but I'm also treating it as DR (5 + 5/+1 or special material required) if the attack would be a "crushing blow" in 1e, or if the attacker has a prime in the attribute that modifies the attack... and of course the attacker has to say something about how they're trying to get through the defenses/hide/magic aura as well.

I like the way fighter-types in 1e were able to clear out mooks nearly as well as spellcasters, and have pumped up combat dominance to allow this (as well as adding a lesser form of it to all the other warrior classes.)

Spell saves seem a little tough, but I have to see how it feels at higher levels before I decide on that one. My gut feeling is to lower the challenge base by 3.

I also like dragons to be a little less overpowering - more like 1e and less like the 2e/C&C style (but none of this "a dragon for every class level! Even your 1st level characters should get a chance to slay dragons!" from 3E). I'm working on a retrofit, combining the milder stats of 1e with the more variable breath weapons of later editions.

Last (I think)... judging monster power straight BtB can be hard. The xp scale is sort of odd, and just comparing HD doesn't give the complete picture. For now I'm just eyeballing it, running quick sample combats and in the end mostly just going with the MMII tables... but I think it's going to diverge more and more as the levels go on.

I don't know though. It's hard to call any of these points "down points." C&C is so simple you can quickly see the effect on the game that changing any of them will have... almost like it was designed to be house-ruled.

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Post by Dristram »

This is a fantastic thread as I love 95% of C&C, as Im sure a lot of us do, but the Trolls can peek at the 5% or so that their fans dont like.

On a personal note, I don't like the smooth shiny pages of the newer modules and PHB3. I like the feel of rough paper. It makes the book feel more like a tome than a magazine.

I feel the XP values for monsters is a bit low. So I give each character X.P. up to the monsters total depending on their level of participation or mostly if they were there for the whole battle or not.

I personally see multi-classing as creating a new class instead of combining two. So I would have liked rules explaining how to customize the classes a bit rather than worry about multi-classing Im looking forward to the CKG as it may address this.

I would have preferred armor have an armor class rather than a bonus to AC. But I just did that myself easy enough. Now that I think about it, it is probably a better way to go to make transition from 3e easier to handle.

Can you tell Im really reaching here?

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Post by kaomera »

No official, non-optional, pre-painted, randomly-assorted miniatures that better serve an awful tabletop skirmish system that I never want to have to play again than the RPG that they are branded off of (and that I'm buying them for) and which progressively get worse and worse each set and...

Oh... Wait, "Down points"??? Uh, sorry, nevermind...

(Not that I'm bitter, or anything... )

But I really would like some cool official C&C minis based on Peter Bradeley's awesome artworks...
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Post by gideon_thorne »

kaomera wrote:
But I really would like some cool official C&C minis based on Peter Bradeley's awesome artworks...

Working on it, mate.
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