Here's an idea: How about all new mods be C&C/LA dual-st

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:51 am

Well, I suppose the title says it all, but to reiterate...

I've been poking around through the various items listed in the catalogue, and noticed that there's a lot of variety, but with little overlap. Plenty of cool stuff that, unfortunately, isn't geared for a particular system that one might prefer. I also see that a lot of the d20 stuff is being scrapped, with C&C versions in the works for re-release. I think that's a great idea (I won't get into the whole "d20 sucks" argument, no matter how fun I'd find it to be --lol, but no one can deny d20's heyday is over, and you can't throw a rock in any direction without hitting a stack of $1 clearance books).

Anywho, I love the idea of retooling older d20 books over to C&C, but a much cooler thought occurs. I'd like to suggest that you consider making all future releases dual-stat, so they can be used with both Lejendary Adventures and Castles & Crusades. Not only would that help support and promote the games (LA could certainly use a boost right about now), but it would just be the coolest thing. Nobody'd have to worry whether something's going to be done for "their" system or not. It'd be a brilliant strategy, if feasible.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:13 am

I understand the idea, but it would make me less likely to buy the module. I dislike dual statted products. Always have and probably always will. I don't have a particular reason I can put my finger on. I just generally will not buy them.

RakintheBlue · Post by **RakintheBlue** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:02 pm

I like the idea, since LA is my game of choice.
But to 100% honest I don't buy enough modules for it to really matter for me for a while.

Also I remember reading in another forum someone mentioning Gary has a crap load of LA stuff just waiting around to be published. I don't think it came from the horses mouth, so take it as it is.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:40 pm

Not likely to happen, as discussed in the other thread about this same topic.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:43 pm

Dual statted or multi statted modules don't sell to a wide audience. Bottom line.
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RakintheBlue · Post by **RakintheBlue** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:06 pm

Nerds are so picky.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:36 pm

Uhm, need I remind you that the modules I'm referring to are not directed at a "wide audience," but would normally be for either C&C or LA? I mean, really, think about that.

1 company.

2 games.

Multiple mods/supps, some for C&C, some for LA.

Options:

A: Maintain the divide, and only sell a portion of each game's support products to each respective half of the community.

Or

B: Include stats for both systems in all support products, so all of them will be useable by the full community, potentially doubling sales.

And yet all I'm seeing are negative comments about the idea.

Honestly, I'm simultaneously stunned, floored, amazed, and mildly saddened by that.

Edit: Just had a follow-up idea. Maybe they could simply publish the alternate stats for each module/supp on the website? This way each item could still remain dedicated to its primary "system" as they are now, but people who use the opposing system could just grab the small PDF (or whatever) and print it out to so that they could make use of the product, too?

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:47 pm

Need you be reminded that

1) not every C&C player plays LA

2) not every LA player plays C&C

3) not everyone wants stuff for a game they don't play

4) both games are so simple that conversion from one to the other is a matter of minutes, rendering the "necessity" of dual-stats moot

5) including other game systems increases page count, making the price higher

?

Seriously, I would not buy a product that was half dedicated to something I don't use, or want. I'd rather spend half the money to get the half I did want.... would you? If so, you're a minority of a niche within a niche.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:50 pm

Yeah, but you're making it sound like it'd be some huge amount of extra material. I'm talking about a few stats. We've already seen them do this with some of the d20 products, and it worked fine, and didn't take up lots of extra room.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:57 pm

Oh, you mean things like the GFW series of books which had hardly any stats to begin with, or something like Hall of Many Panes, where a good 25-33% is d20 stats (and that, because its not 3.5 stats or that horrendous "delve format"?)

Sure, if the book is just a reference thing... like "in C&C this cost 10 gp, but in LA it is $30" then so what? But stat lines (especially C&C ones - they are "literary") fill up at least 3-5 lines and there's bound to be 10-15 of them per module (and if there are any new monsters those would have to have a page or so at least) resulting in at least 4-5 pages of an already small book (let's say its the normal 12 page module) as useless for those who don't want it. If the book is longer, so is the "conversion stuff."

Dual stating is a matter of logistics and value... for the consumer.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:26 pm

Kurgan wrote:
And yet all I'm seeing are negative comments about the idea.

Honestly, I'm simultaneously stunned, floored, amazed, and mildly saddened by that.

Mainly because the idea has been tried by many companies over the last several years for various systems and the products do not sell. Not trying to be negative, just factual.
Now if someone were to check with Steve and ask if they could do fan stat block conversions, I imagine he would have no problem hosting such on the TLG site.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:59 pm

Hmm, I've been buying modules for both systems, and then converting the LA ones to play in C&C. Matter of fact, the LA module Fish for Breakfast I converted into C&C AND v3.5. Good stuff.

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Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:41 pm

Having played through HOMP and having seen the results of the dual statted product, I don't think its a very good idea - and not from the point that they don't sell well ( a major roadblock).

The main reason, I think, is that not all the encounters turn out the way that the author intended it. As in HOMP, all of the encounters were perfect for the LA system, can't say that for the D20 side of it. C&C and LA are two completely different systems and when you get done converting it, some of the original "flavor" is lost - lost in translation as they say.

So, you won't see me jumping for joy at the idea. Just my couple of coppers!
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:47 pm

Deogolf wrote:
The main reason, I think, is that not all the encounters turn out the way that the author intended it. As in HOMP, all of the encounters were perfect for the LA system, can't say that for the D20 side of it. C&C and LA are two completely different systems and when you get done converting it, some of the original "flavor" is lost - lost in translation as they say.

That was the other point. The two systems have incompatible standards when it comes to crafting adventures. C&C adventures are linear level advancement plots, LA doesn't follow the same linear advancement progression so is in need of a different literary paradigm.

*chuckles* In short, the changes aren't just stat block deep.
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Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:47 pm

@serleran Guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree. I simply don't see it as you do, nor do I believe it would be anywhere as difficult or expansive as you're implying. I've seen plenty of modules and supplements that had stats for multiple systems, not even just two, and all it required was a few extra lines and notations.
@anybody I've also just gotta say, I'm having a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to the overwhelming sentiment that somehow having a few extra stats in the books would somehow be an inconvenience to other people, who react as if those extra stats diminish "their" product and/or wouldn't match their friggin' drapes, and so naturally must not be considered.

Quote:
Mainly because the idea has been tried by many companies over the last several years for various systems and the products do not sell. Not trying to be negative, just factual.

I don't entirely agree with this, either. The only relative failures were for d20-based dual-stat books. Other companies, who focused on specific games, did fairly well, although I'll agree nobody put their kids through college on the revenue, either. (But then again, I don't think those books sold any less than the single-system versions.) Chaosium did rather well back in the '80s with some of their multi-stat books, which proved to be very popular at the time. The only drawback proved to be in the area of follow-up printings, since some companies would later drop the contract, and the books had to have those systems removed. Now that's definitely an inconvenience, to be sure. However, since in this instance we're talking about two games that are published by TL, that drawback would be moot.

It's obvious that I'm not going to get my wish on this, but I will nevertheless continue to evince surprise at the general reaction to the idea. It seems like such a logical, easy, and convenient thing, from both a marketing and end-user viewpoint. That people could actually get upset at the notion, because the extra material would somehow be annoying or offensive to them, just blows my mind.

I'd still push for online conversions to be made available, if that idea would fly, but I wouldn't want them to be fan-made uploads, I'd at least want them to be "official" downloads in some capacity, for the sake of avoiding subsequent arguments with players over the accuracy of the stats.

Hmmm. I wonder if they could do two versions of each new book, one for each system, and let people choose which version they wanted when they ordered 'em? There's a company or two doing that already, and from what I remember (vague) it was working out alright, and people were pleased with the choice. I dunno, food for thought, anyway.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:56 pm

Deogolf & gideon_thorne

An interesting argument.
I've always thought that a good adventure shouldn't be something that required tailoring due to its associated rules, though.

Have you ever heard of Powers & Perils? It's an old FRPG from Avalon Hill. It's one of my all-time favorite game system. No levels, no classes, just realism. There's a similar problem there where you can't just dive into any adventure, since there are no definable markers to indicate whether a particular adventure is of the same "level" as the characters. For P&P, you really just have to prep a lot of possible avenues of adventuring, and let the players make the call, and decide if one path is likely too much of a challenge for them at that point in time. It's risky, but if done right, it can be a very rewarding and realistic environment. So yeah, I can see how things could be geared differently for different setups, but even still, all that really means is that a particular adventure might simply be needed at different times under differing systems.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:25 pm

Quote:
I've seen plenty of modules and supplements that had stats for multiple systems, not even just two, and all it required was a few extra lines and notations.

Sure, 10-20 years ago, when there were actually different systems that were popular, and used... because the owners of those systems didn't really care. Sure, today there are lots of game systems, but they are proprietary and you have to pay to convert to them. That's another expense.

When AD&D was king, all you had to do was use generic stats and slightly rename a thing or two.... now, that's just not true. You can make it Open, of course, but that gives access to only d20 and other "OGL games."

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:29 pm

Well, let's not beat this to death. Bout the only way one is going to see any sort of multi stated anything is through fan support. Time and resources just aren't there for any other means.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:35 pm

I didn't like the L5R stuff being dual statted for d20 and d10, and I still bought the material. I would have been much happier if it had all been d10, but thats because I think L5R works much better in its d10 form.

But I also know AEG, the makers of L5R, said the dual stat books did not work for them, sales wise. Which is why the dropped the d20 line and went back to being strictly D10. So I am much happier now, and so are the vast majority of L5R fans. AEG's L5R sales have been picking up considerably in the last 6 months in particular. Then again, so has their CCG for L5R. So I suspect a direct link there.

Like Omote said, I am fine with converting LA to C&C as I use them.

Plus what Peter and Serleran said about the writing Paradigm for LA explains why I like reading them much more than C&C mods.
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Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:46 pm

Quote:
Sure, 10-20 years ago...

No, I wasn't just talking about old stuff.

Quote:
...when there were actually different systems that were popular, and used.

Ah, and here's where I suspect the confusion originates. You're looking at it from the standpoint of someone who sees d20 as the only "real" thing on the block, and everything else is inconsequential and not popular (not that you necessarily like or agree with it, only that you appear to have accepted it as fact). I, on the other hand, have loathed and despised it from the get-go, and have continued to focus on what I view as "real" RPG material. Lots and lots of great, original, worth-the-paper-they're-printed-on games remained popular while mediocre, craptastic d20 was raping the landscape, and some new ones even managed to get printed and become popular, too. Multi- and dual-stat books have been printed during this time. Some were utter failures, some succeeded. Heh, one of the most hilarious instances is that annoyingly prolific Smuggler's Cove adventure. Instead of making it a single, multi-stat book, they instead just released it a dozen times over, tailored to every game system they could find (which wouldn't have been such a bad idea if they'd retained some consistancy and done the errata first --have you ever compared various editions? Whole paragraphs and maps are sometimes missing!). lol

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:05 pm

No, I'm talking about: what I see when I walk into a game store.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:48 pm

Heh, not that I'm overly crazy about it, but when I walk into the stores I'm assaulted not by a majority d20 stuff, but lots of White Wolf, Warhammer, and Savage Worlds books, with some of the WotC D&D books prominent, and a few of the OGL lines (Necromancer's stuff, for example) as well. Tons of CCGs, and lots of miniature-based stuff nowadays, too. Oh, and Chaosium, of course. Always a smattering of Cthulhu books, too. Walk past all that, and then you'll see all the other games, and beyond that, stacks of d20 books with little color-coded circular stickers on 'em denoting clearance prices.
I'll call that a happy tradeoff I can live with. lol I'm not into White Wolf stuff (although the new Pendragon is simply a masterpiece --referring mainly to the massive campaign book, but the new core book is pretty awesome, too), nor am I a Warhammer junkie (never played it, probably never will). Savage Worlds looks kinda neat, and being a huge fan of any piratic or age-of-sail stuff I'm please at the current influx of that sort of material. Love Cthulhu, though.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:51 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Savage Worlds looks kinda neat

It is.

Great system. I give it

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:47 pm

I like the idea of dual stating and would buy modules that were done thusly.

On the other hand, I buy both LA and C&C. And there several excellent LA mods that I've thought about running under C&C.

They wouldn't be hard to convert at all, so there's that.

Several could be dropped in any campaign world, but there's just something about them that makes me hesitate to run them under C&C.

I'm sure it must be that I really want to run them under LA. We've talked about it briefly in our gaming group, so it just may happen.

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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:02 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
It is.

Great system. I give it

Seconded. Now that you can get the complete system in the explorers handbook for 10 bucks you can't lose.