StarSIEGE... once more into the breach

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cheeplives
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Post by cheeplives »

CharlieRock wrote:
Whoa, afraid I can't hang with that. Best of luck to you on this. It is pretty cool to see your work in-print.

Are you serious? Can't tell with the wink included. The Skill Bundles are basically the same thing as using the Attributes as Prime, I just divorced them from the attributes and gave them more defined roles. So a character with Combat Expertise as a Prime is basically the same as a Strength Prime character but what he can do with it is more rigidly defined. I basically encoded the attribute primes and class abilities into the Skill Bundles and then let you pick and choose the Skill Bundles you wanted. And you can remove the actual "specialites" and just run with "experience level" and basically have a classed based system.

Moreover, I really think you'd like the equipment creation rules, cause you can make just about anything you want with it, from a flashlight to a star destroyer. It scales up with what you're making...

Oh well, to each his own, I guess.

As far as the "blaster being a blaster" there's not much I can say there... you can build in special effects and such to customize things some... I might need to see if I can come up with some rules to re-tooling eqiupment after it's been purchased. Hrrrm...
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Post by Treebore »

DangerDwarf wrote:
I agree there. I never liked how in a majority of sci-fi games that weapons are pretty generic and the same. I know its not an easy thing to fix, but some effort to differentiate makes things stand out.

Shadowrun did a fairly decent job of making the weapons seem different, even if they had similar stats. Some had certian options plugged in, some were more concealable, rates of fire, etc.

This is one of the minor reasons why I like Traveller. You have laser, you have plasma, you have needles, you have fusion, all dependent on the tech level the GM has the game set at. I like all the toys, so I always do Tech 17+.

Don't forget Battle Armors. Simple Battle Armors, not mechanized robots. Including robots will be cool too. I might help with that once this is printed, as Crusader article submissions. I love Gundams in particular.

Charlie Rock, you haven't checked out the Big Eye's Small Mouth Tri-Stat system? It has all the robot/mech warrior/Gundam love you can want. I found the system pretty darn cool too, just a little bit too abstract.

Plus I am curious as to why you find the skill Prime based to off from stat Prime based? Like I said in an earlier post in this thread I already do both in my C&C game, so I see it as insanely easy to be compatible.
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Post by CharlieRock »

cheeplives wrote:
Are you serious? Can't tell with the wink included. The Skill Bundles are basically the same thing as using the Attributes as Prime, I just divorced them from the attributes and gave them more defined roles. So a character with Combat Expertise as a Prime is basically the same as a Strength Prime character but what he can do with it is more rigidly defined. I basically encoded the attribute primes and class abilities into the Skill Bundles and then let you pick and choose the Skill Bundles you wanted. And you can remove the actual "specialites" and just run with "experience level" and basically have a classed based system.

Moreover, I really think you'd like the equipment creation rules, cause you can make just about anything you want with it, from a flashlight to a star destroyer. It scales up with what you're making...

Oh well, to each his own, I guess.

As far as the "blaster being a blaster" there's not much I can say there... you can build in special effects and such to customize things some... I might need to see if I can come up with some rules to re-tooling eqiupment after it's been purchased. Hrrrm...

Skill bundles just don't sound appealing. Especially with the breakdown you've got there. All too often I see in skills systems a set that is just too rigid.

Like ,d20's Diplomacy and Intimidate for example. Now if I describe my character diplomatically intimidating someone I force a call from the Ref as to which skill is being used (or possibly making two rolls). And why couldn't a Ref based character intimidate someone just as well as a Str based? Remember the scene in Raising Arizona where the bounty hunter catches a fly mere inches from the nose of Mr. Arizona? All before Mr. Arizona could blink. Ref based intimidation. Or Bruce Lee spinning nunchaku around too fast for the eye to follow. Not exactly a strength or charisma feat there.

I see a lot of potential there for skill blurring (which leads me to believe there will be redundant skills). Lore and faith. Combat Expertise and athletics. Mechanics and Technology. With a blur in what skills can do in scenarios I (as a Ref) will have to make calls like "Okay, you can wire the keypad to explode using Technology. But if you have had Mechanics you would have a bonus, too." (assuming this is the rogue type endeavor)

Have you ever seen GDW's Dark Conspiracy? A character got to pick from different career paths that each came with skill bundles. It was kind of fun rolling up a farmer who enlisted in the military, got out and became a lawyer. But you still encountered a bit of skill blur. Like, persuade and bluff. When is it that you "persuaded" someone to look the other way and not "bluffed" them?

The quipment part does sound great. I forget which game it was (Paranoia?) where all equipment had the same stats, just some were 0 or n/a. So a blaster rifle did X for damage at Y range, but had a movement of 0 (you carried it) while a blaster drone had all those plus movement and armor rating and so forth. Whatever game had that system I couldn't get enough of it. My team and I made piles of gear. So much we never used it all. Paranoia is also where I "borrowed" the idea of different colored lasers having different effects. Except that there it merely represented the damage scale. Why not have green lasers be "sleep rays" and orange ones be "blister beams" that effect exposed skin?

Also, no equipment is fully 3D (or that bigger word people like to use now, verisimilitude) without rules to break them.
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Post by CharlieRock »

Treebore wrote:
This is one of the minor reasons why I like Traveller. You have laser, you have plasma, you have needles, you have fusion, all dependent on the tech level the GM has the game set at. I like all the toys, so I always do Tech 17+.

Don't forget Battle Armors. Simple Battle Armors, not mechanized robots. Including robots will be cool too. I might help with that once this is printed, as Crusader article submissions. I love Gundams in particular.

Charlie Rock, you haven't checked out the Big Eye's Small Mouth Tri-Stat system? It has all the robot/mech warrior/Gundam love you can want. I found the system pretty darn cool too, just a little bit too abstract.

Plus I am curious as to why you find the skill Prime based to off from stat Prime based? Like I said in an earlier post in this thread I already do both in my C&C game, so I see it as insanely easy to be compatible.

I do like Traveller and Tri-Stat.

I hope my earlier post explained what I don't like about skill prime based games. Basically, skills are either too vague ("I'm certified in every melee weapon imaginable") or too rigid ("Sorry, I just don't know how to wield, even though I'm a armorer")
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Post by cheeplives »

So how do you handle abilities in C&C, since the Primes are just Skill Bundles that are named by Attributes? Like climbing... it's both DEX and STR based, heck even CON based, depending on how you do it. I don't have the class ability, but I can still try it, so which attribute do I use? What is a STR check mean? How is it different from a CON check? Lore and Spiritual are very different in the game, I assure you... Lore is your knowledge of things while Spiritual is used to influence the emotions of others. Persuasion and Spiritual *could* possibly overlap, save the Persuasoin is about changing the mind while Spiritual is about changing the heart. Basically I use Persuasion to convince you to sell me something cheaper while I use Spiritual to convince you to convert to my god or to believe in yourself.

Also, to me the fact that you could, as a GM, choose to let someone use multiple Skill Bundles is a feature, not a flaw. This puts more power into both the GM's and player's hands... letting two characters solve the same problem with different Skill Bundles shows flexibility on both the system and the participant's part.
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Post by Treebore »

Plus I also find it insanely easy to edit skill bundles to make sense to me and my players.

Like in 3E I long ago bundled Spot, Search, and Listen into "Perception", and even thought about rolling Sense Motive into it. Then I created "stealth" from Moving Silently and Hiding in Shadows. Of course in my homemade skill system I used in 2E this is how I had broke them down anyhow. So it makes sense, to me, that I would house rule back to that.

So if I like the skill bundles in Star Siege I may use that instead of my current skill system.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Post by cheeplives »

This discussion has me considering dropping Technology and rolling it into Lore and Mechanics. I would then create a Tech stat that tracks the level of technology the character is familiar with. Then your Tech stat will determine what objects you are versed in and what objects are completely alien to you. So a character with a Tech 5 stat wants to fix a Tech 8 object will have difficulty...
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Post by Treebore »

cheeplives wrote:
This discussion has me considering dropping Technology and rolling it into Lore and Mechanics. I would then create a Tech stat that tracks the level of technology the character is familiar with. Then your Tech stat will determine what objects you are versed in and what objects are completely alien to you. So a character with a Tech 5 stat wants to fix a Tech 8 object will have difficulty...

That sounds like a good mechanic to ad. Plus in such games you do need to do repairs pretty frequently. Where as in a fantasy game you might use a craft type skill 3 times over 15 levels "in game". Most times that stuff is handled in the background.

So, at least in my experiences, having a mechanic to use for repairing equipment will get a lot fo use.

So does research. In my Traveller game there is this group of scientists that started with two PC's, mine and another played by Mike Hassel, and they are into doing "super research". They are the group I use to introduce new technologies into the Traveller universe. Based on ideas that come to mind when I read about new scientific advances in our real world.

Anyways, I have had several scientist types over the years actually played, one of whom got good enough to be solicited by my NPC science group. So I find reasearch rules handy.
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Post by FTracer »

The character's race could have a default Tech stat or bonus (positive or negative) to the Tech stat which could be changed by what faction they are in.

For example, Lok' Tar's people do not have means of intergalactic travel so his default stat is 4. Joining raiders that came to his planet he then began learning new things. His tech stat could be bumped up over a few levels.

I think I'd prefer a selection of equipment at different tech levels as well. I was kind of disappointed of how it was handled in Star Wars SAGA. It's not that I need a metric ton of laser pistols and rifles but some variety would be nice. I think Alternity handled this pretty well. That is a selection with tech level assigned to it.

I think the skill packages are fine but it needs to link to ability primes somehow. That way even though someone does have that skill they have a shot at it. Or perhaps you already factored that it.

A little off topic, Treebore do you have a writeup on which skills/feats you tied to attribute checks? I think people would find that handy. At least I would.

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Post by Treebore »

FTracer wrote:
A little off topic, Treebore do you have a writeup on which skills/feats you tied to attribute checks? I think people would find that handy. At least I would.

I use the 3E skill list as my basis, so I assign them to the same attributes used in 3E. Which matches up with what C&C did with the class skills, so I am pretty sure the Trolls did the same thing.

The SRD online thing is an easy way to find a write up if you don't have a 3E PH.

I'll see if I can link it to this thread.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Post by Treebore »

Here is a link to the descriptions. The attribute it is related to is in (...) when you open up the description. You'll find most of them make sense. Knowledge is INT based, perception type skills are WIS based, etc...
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/skills.htm
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Post by CharlieRock »

cheeplives wrote:
So how do you handle abilities in C&C, since the Primes are just Skill Bundles that are named by Attributes? Like climbing... it's both DEX and STR based, heck even CON based, depending on how you do it. I don't have the class ability, but I can still try it, so which attribute do I use? What is a STR check mean? How is it different from a CON check? Lore and Spiritual are very different in the game, I assure you... Lore is your knowledge of things while Spiritual is used to influence the emotions of others. Persuasion and Spiritual *could* possibly overlap, save the Persuasoin is about changing the mind while Spiritual is about changing the heart. Basically I use Persuasion to convince you to sell me something cheaper while I use Spiritual to convince you to convert to my god or to believe in yourself.

Also, to me the fact that you could, as a GM, choose to let someone use multiple Skill Bundles is a feature, not a flaw. This puts more power into both the GM's and player's hands... letting two characters solve the same problem with different Skill Bundles shows flexibility on both the system and the participant's part.

I usually don't have someone make climb checks. If you have the STR to carry your own weight you can carry it up a rope. You may need to make a Falling check if someone (or something) messes with you while climbing. But that is not the same as a Climb (can my character make it up there?) check. If a character is overloaded or low STR then "no, they cannot climb up there."

Tech levels are a nifty mechanic.

What have you got for a wounding mechanic? We know no hit points. Do things do Stat damage? Can I shoot someone with a "muscle tissue decay beam" that damages physique or reflexes (or both)? Say yes, because I would like to imagine a "stupid beam" that deals INT damage. You may survive the beam's blast, but will you be able to pilot your ship, muahahaha. Or,like old 1e GURPS (where a stat directly was used as the "hit points")? Or are wound points static from person to person (a la CyberPunk).
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Post by cheeplives »

There's no reason why you couldn't create something that does Stat Damage. Right now, each character has Wound Boxes (3 or more) that are just very simplified hit points. Every successful attack does one Wound Box of damage (or more). Every character also has 3 "Critical" boxes that represent more serious damage (basically the equivalent of 0 or less Hit Points.

This would translate well into a Hit Point system for those who want it. But when you create items, you can specify "Special Effects". These effects can be whatever you want (some examples are "More Damaging" allowing the weapon to do 2 wound boxes of damage or "Armor Piercing" to ignore armor). You can create a weapon that saps the character's Knowledge or Reflex stats if you want... nothing in the system stops you. I'll try to make a note of them... perhaps a "Confusion" effect that reduces the character's Savvy or Reflexes... ooh... or, since I have both Physical and Mental Wound boxes, you could mimic it by doing damage to the character's Mental Wounds.

In the end, I did my best to create an effects based creation system, so you're only limited by what you can come up with. I'll definitely add Attribute damage to the list of possible options, though.

Now I just need to some how work Tech into the item creation rules... which sucks cause it took a LONG time to create them as they are. Oh well.
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Post by Treebore »

Tech Lvl is somewhat subjective anyways.

Like Traveller assumes magnetic field needle guns come right after ballistic gunpowder type weapons. Then lasers. Then Plasma, then fusion.

So it might be simplest to list tech levels with what examples you think would follow the tech level prgression. Then invite CK's to alter it to suit their preferences. Then for repair and research purposes, say the Tech Level difference between the tech level the character is at, to what the "jump" would be for what they are repairing or researching is an additional CL to add to the base TN.

So not only do you have the difficulty of the severity of the damage to repair, but the difference of the tech level you are used to is also added.

Say your "society" is Tech Lvl 15. Your repairing a severely damaged engine that is TL (Tech Lvl) 12. The severity warrants a CL modifier of 8, then the difference in Tech Level (3) further modifies it to a total of 11.

Why even for older TL's? Well, have someone who has only learned and worked on car engines made in the last 10 years try and repair or rebuild an engine from the 60's. Yes, there is a certain amount of familiarity, but a lot of that 30 year old engine is still "greek" to the mechanic.

Take todays micro board electronics expert, sit him in front of a 1970's computer with all their transistor tubes and they are going to be at a severe disadvantage to figure out how to troubleshoot and fix it. Let alone hunt up repair parts.

So getting the spare parts is also covered by the modifier. If no spares are available (the technology is 200 years old) then the modifier can be even higher because repair parts need to be fabricated.

Or something like that.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Post by kaomera »

I'm liking what I'm seeing, and I'd definitely be down with a SIEGE-engine scifi game...

But I keep wondering, when seeing the "StarSIEGE" title, if you are aware of the PC games Starsiege and Starsiege: Tribes, and consequently if their existence would end up having any impact on the game's name...
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Post by cheeplives »

I was thinking of doing Tech Level as based off of the "galactic standard" that the group is using... basically saying X society is Y steps (above or below) the galactic standard... thus I don't have to define what the "galactic standard" is and leave it up to the individual group.

I do like the idea of having problems going back as well as forward. I would probably rule that going back is a simple 1 for 1 penalty while going forward is a 2 for 1 penalty... but I'll probably leave that as an optional rule too.

As far as the name, yes, I have brought up the StarSIEGE title to the Troll Lords. I also checked the Patent and Trademarks office and there is still an active Trademark on StarSIEGE... I hope the Troll Lords have had Mac look into it.

For a while I was working with the game under the title of NovaSIEGE... I tried to think of some kind of aliterative name for it like Castles and Crusades but came up short. NovaSIEGE was the one that got the most votes here when I posited out new names a while ago.
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Post by FTracer »

cheeplives I do think it's pretty cool that you're asking what we think. Ultimately it's your decision what goes into the game and I think you'd do fine.

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Post by Treebore »

FTracer wrote:
cheeplives I do think it's pretty cool that you're asking what we think. Ultimately it's your decision what goes into the game and I think you'd do fine.

Me too. I just look at this thread as "brainstorming" for Cheaplives. To help him get ideas and clarify what directions to go in.

See one things about C&C, is many people cannot deal with how general the system is. The "holes" it has. Which was needed, since one of the design goals was to have the system open to house ruling and customization.

I just seeing people who like Sci-Fi having even more problems with a system that is too generalized.

However, with you offering up guidleines for adding to the base line game, through item creation rules, etc... I see this as appealing more to both the "generalist" type fo gamer like me, as well as to the "detail oriented" gamer.

As for a name I like "Stars and Space" best. You visit stars to explore possibly alien life, or to find great mineral supplies, and you travel through space to get there. So I think "Stars and Space" are the words that best sum up the sci fi experience.

Plus it fits into the two word dynamic so loved by gamers. IE D&D=Dungeons and Dragons, T&T=Tunnels and Trolls, C&C=Castles and Crusades, S&S=Swords and Sorcery, and now Stars and Space. Plus Stars and Space are all short words.
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Post by cheeplives »

Okay, I'm working on Tech in StarSIEGE and, as such, am re-tooling the equipment to take into account this change.

Then something came to me as an option that I'd like to bounce off of people. In another RPG I've designed, I made equipment disposable to characters. That means you can basically sacrifice items rather than taking damage... in adding Tech to the equipment in StarSIEGE I decided to remove the equipment "Durability" attribute to keep things simple.

What I was thinking was allowing all pieces of equipment to have a single "Wound Box" that they can take... if they take damage to that wound box, then they are destroyed. Some items can have multiple Wound Boxes, if they are such designed. Not too big a departure from "attacking objects in the OGL".

Now, here's the part I was wondering on... say instead of targetting an object or something, we let the player whose character is being attacked choose to allow an item they are carrying/wearing take the damage rather than the character. This way I can sacrifice my handgun to not take damage, or have my sword sundered while lunging in to throttle my opponent. This makes armor particularly useful, since it's basically ablative hits (as well as a defensive bonus to your "AC"). I might have to figure out some way to keep people from saying "you've destroyed my book of matches! damn you!" but the encumbrance system makes up for some of that... basically the rule would be that you can only "sacrifice" a meaningful piece of equipment... This means, however, you can have your eyeglasses destroyed to keep you from taking damage, but leaving you blind... hrrmm... I like this...

Any thoughts?
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Post by FTracer »

I kinna like it.

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Post by gideon_thorne »

Its almost got a movie cinema action film flavor to it. One could perhaps even defend oneself with found objects. Furniture and the like. I can dig it.
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Post by Omote »

I don't think using my eyeglasses to defend from a chair being smashed across my face, or for that matter a light sabre attack is a good idea. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your post. As long as the mechanic is a simple one, thus taking up very little room in the book for rules, then it's might be OK.

Most of the explanation text seems like it would be devoted to telling players that you couldn't block a light sabre with your eyesglasses though.

Just my thought.

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Post by CharlieRock »

To solve the issue Omote brings up; have predetermined items only designated as "blocking" items. Armors, jet packs, force fields, etc. Items designated as "blocking" items will have this attribute listed as well as the tech level. Could be something like "* blockable items".

How is furniture counted as equipment, Gideon?
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Post by boxcornersdiety »

Omote wrote:
That being said, if this is a root/toolkit for all settings, it might be a good idea to incorporate into the StarSEIGE book a small psionics system. Possibly a system where psionic powers can be created.

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Another way would be to keep things compatible enough so that psionics could be stolen from the spell lists of C&C. For example, an Illusionist with careful spell choices could be a Mentalist archetype. Perhaps a simple rule set for determining how (and how often) psionic powers can be used would be enough for the GM to fill in the specific descriptions and effects from C&C or other sources.

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Post by serleran »

Or, you could simply compare Tech levels. A weapon of a higher Tech always penetrates a lower Tech defense. For example:

Steel Shield - Tech 4 (or whatever)

Laser Sword - Tech 15 (or whatever)

The sword cuts right through the shield.

In cases where it might not be so obvious, you only add a "unless the SIEGE Engineer states otherwise."

And, of course, lower Tech weapons than the defense would not be able to inflict damage.

Rely on the players, their referee, and not the mechanics to do it all - that is what C&C, and the SIEGE Engine, are about.

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Post by cheeplives »

That's a good idea serleran... I'll make a note of it in the rules.
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Post by old school gamer »

Just curious, will this be a class/level based system or more skill based?

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Post by gideon_thorne »

Seems to be more skill rank based.
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Post by Treebore »

gideon_thorne wrote:
Seems to be more skill rank based.

Which is good with me, its how I adapted Traveller to the SIEGE engine for my game.

Maybe it will help to think of "skill ranks" as that characters "level within that field of expertise.

So it isn't exactly going "classless", its further breaking down a class into the individual things that class can do, and give it a level rating.

So a Marine in my Traveller game, is still a Marine, he is just much more likely than the Merchant or Scientist to kick butt in Combat. Where as the Merchant will handle trade negotiations (hugely critical in a technological setting) very well, but not shoot worth a darn in comparison to the Marine.

The Scientist will obviously be very knowledgeable about esoteric things, like the Physics of why some phenomenon is occurring. Things the Merchant and Marine would be totally oblivious about.

So it isn't going classless, its a more detailed build of ones class. Where you have varying "levels" of your specific skills, rather than a general "class level".
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Post by old school gamer »

Yeah, I got that, made the post before I finished reading the thread, and I like it. After dealing with systems like D20 Modern I think that level/classed based systems don't really work well in a modern/science fiction setting.

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