Troll Lord Games

OK, the Trolls didn't call it that, but WOTC can't sue me.

Here it is:
http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/zagyg/8312.html

Looks like classic PC death Gygax style to me!
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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It's really disturbing how the write-ups for products on the TLG page have such glaring typos and grammatical errors.
Pushing that aside, however, I'm tempted to get the Castle Zygag products for my C&C campaign, looks like some good ol' fashioned roleplaying fun is waiting there for my new players.

Alcahaelas wrote:
It's really disturbing how the write-ups for products on the TLG page have such glaring typos and grammatical errors.
Pushing that aside, however, I'm tempted to get the Castle Zygag products for my C&C campaign, looks like some good ol' fashioned roleplaying fun is waiting there for my new players.

Okay, I'm only find one error, are there several dozen that I'm missing?

Steve
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The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

Troll Lord wrote:
Okay, I'm only find one error, are there several dozen that I'm missing?

Steve

I only see two at first glance. Both are in the third paragraph. The spelling of `players' is wrong- it's missing the r.

And in the sentence "Venture overland to a time now forgotten, to a gaming world where the challenge was the scenario and not the game.", the word "was" should be "is", since you're speaking in the present tense.

I'm not a grammatical god by any stretch, but those are the only two that seem `glaring' to me. I only mention them because you asked.
-Fizz

While there might be a spelling error here and there, at least there isn't a lot of attitude towards us.

Not to swerve too far off topic, but I have encountered and seen a lot of flack from a certain official messageboard that makes a certain fantasy role playing game that involves warhammers (while I know that Green Ronin actually makes the game, Black Industries holds the reins). Threads unceremoniously closed and snide comments made are a lot more irritating than a spelling error here and there, not that their books are perfect by any stretch.
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Deserve has nothing to do with it, if you think you're entitled. You're not.

--Stephen Chenault

Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.

J. R. R. Tolkien

Troll Lord wrote:
Okay, I'm only find one error, are there several dozen that I'm missing?

Steve

====================================

Deep in the pits of Castle Zagyg lies the Gate of Horn, a passage that leads to another world. Here the ancients hid their wealth in knowledge and artifacts, and closed the portals with powerful incantations. But the key has been gleaned and by mumbled spells and magical chimes the door is now open and the treasure ripe for the taking. Or so you can only hope.

Beyond the Horned Gate lies the Bears Tail and the Teeth of fable and lore. Beware your senses and trust not experience. Many will attempt to delay, detour and devour you. Only those who are able to fortitude their desire can dare to press on. And for those their lies the lurker, waiting in its own filth, cloaked and seeming harmlessness. Beyond it lies the cave where rest the wondrous teeth of Bourekshnar (Barkesh-Nour). For His teeth possess wonder and powers, locked their in ancient days. A single tooth imbibes the wielder with powers wondrous and wild, but possession of them all imparts power undreamed. But time is short, the alien sun stalks mercilessly across the sky - choose and carry forth, for time is not your friend here! Enter the nightmare realm of inverted logic and vicious monsters where fabled relics lie scattered in the dust of ruin.

The Teeth of the Barkash Nour was originally designed by Gary Gygax as a tournament module for play at Metro Detroit Game Convention where some 100 playes ventured through it. It has rested, forgotten in the labyrinth of his gaming library until now. This is classic Gygax with a multitude of challenges from traps to monsters, riddles and the peril of time. Gygax pulls no punches and the adventurer takes all the risks from the mundane to the wildly fantastic. Venture overland to a time now forgotten, to a gaming world where the challenge was the scenario and not the game. Step through the Gate of Horn and your party is plunged into a nightmare contest wherein they have 36 hours to enter in, retrieve and leave the land of fable wherein the Teeth lie hidden.

Designed for play with the Castles & Crusades Role Playing Game, for 4-6 characters with a challenge level of 8. Complete with copies of the original hand-drawn maps and Player character roster by the author as well as new revised maps and characters for use by the Castle Keeper.
====================================

I have highlighted the misspellings, awkward phrases/mixed verb tenses (past/present tense mixing) and redundant words I can see on a first skim through the text. There are other sentences I think could be rewritten a bit to read better, not sound quite so funky.

I'm not trying to criticize maliciously or make TLG look bad or anything, please don't take it that way (not saying you are, just offering a disclaimer here). I like the C&C game and the TLG offerings. However, putting a little extra spit and polish on the web pages/printed products would improve the overall quality and professionalism of the offerings.

You've got some great material here, I love the choices of products. Having Gary Gygax contribute to your product line is wonderful! As an English Major, though, I cringe here and there. Rarely big blunders but enough of the little things can grate on the nerves while reading web pages/PDFs/modules/handbooks.

One forgets some awkwardness is stylistic. There is, also, "proper" English and that of the conveyance of an idea - ie, Tolkien vs Faulkner. Surely, as an English major, you have been forced to read both and know exactly what I mean.

But, maybe that's from my decision to stop being an English major, because it was far too corncobbed for my rear.

Treebore wrote:
Looks like classic PC death Gygax style to me!

Ooohh, challenge level of 8. Can't wait to see this module in print!!
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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Yes, that is true. If the awkwardness is intentional then I stand corrected. However, with the mixing of tenses, misspelled words and redundant use of a few words, I got the impression it wasn't entirely by design. I'm certainly prone to misperception though so if I'm looking at it the wrong way then you have my apologies.

I just thought they were trying to write it the way Gary would have.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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I love the Trolls and their products. They care about the game, about gamers, and about their customers. In saying this I have come to just accept that their enthusiasm comes at the cost of some grammatical and/or spelling infelicities. After all, only the TLG site could misspell "errata" on the link for downloading errata. Classic Trolls! It's just who they are. Gotta love 'em!

Geleg wrote:
I love the Trolls and their products. They care about the game, about gamers, and about their customers. In saying this I have come to just accept that their enthusiasm comes at the cost of some grammatical and/or spelling infelicities. After all, only the TLG site could misspell "errata" on the link for downloading errata. Classic Trolls! It's just who they are. Gotta love 'em!

Maybe they should put this under their logo:

"We shpel lice troollz two!"

"We spell like Trolls too!"
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Hey, at least the errors aren't TOO bad. There was this other d20 / rpg game maker that was known for their way painful typos and errs... yowch. But they have vastly improved since.

I don't get all that excited about prefab adventures, but I will concede a "Hoody huzzah!" for this one, as it seems pretty darn cool.
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"Um... just how -does- one wield a vorpal gnome, man?"

Gamers looking for a new system might be a little put off by the text. Naturally hardcore gamers or those that are recommended to the system will overlook the minor details (I did, having recently found C&C and made a healthy purchase) but others who are browsing may decide it's from a lack of oversight/editing and choose to look for a more polished product.

Hey, I've read the materials, bought some and browsed a lot of the other goods here; I like the system. I will buy more as my campaign develops. I would recommend it to anyone who wants a nice, clean system that hearkens back to the good ol' days of early D&D/AD&D (like myself). I simply think a little extra review might serve the company a tad better for having a slightly more polished offering that could lure in more sales. If somebody's on the fence on whether to click that "Add To Cart" button, poorly-edited text could be the difference.

Again, I'm not trying to put down the company or the community. The typos and such didn't ward me away but the editor in me can't help but notice the little things. Sorry if that offended anyone.

Typoes have been a big issue with TLG. Fortunately they are much better about it now then before. Still, it wouldn't hurt to strive for perfection.

So hopefully the Trolls will keep working towards cleaning this up as much as possible.

Editing is something I am willing to do too. But I am far from an englsih major, but I am good at spelling and if it sounds good.

Just don't expect me to use effect and affect properly.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Spelling and basic grammar, yes. But, what I find with "editors" is they have a great love for changing text, simply because they do not like the way it "sounds." That "sound" is the author's voice, and the editor should leave it alone. I hate, for example, opening something of mine and reading it over and saying "that is not what I wrote." This is why, when I did some editing work for Gary, all I did was make sure the words were spelled right, didn't have any punctuation problems, and had no missing words - I never altered the actual text. That pisses me off to no end, but that's me. Some don't care, saying "a great editor makes a bad author good" but I disagree -- a good author makes an editor unnecessary.

Treebore wrote:
Typoes have been a big issue with TLG. Fortunately they are much better about it now then before. Still, it wouldn't hurt to strive for perfection.

So hopefully the Trolls will keep working towards cleaning this up as much as possible.

Editing is something I am willing to do too. But I am far from an englsih major, but I am good at spelling and if it sounds good.

Just don't expect me to use effect and affect properly.

I'm a History guy myself, but I'm pretty good at spotting errors. Except in my own stuff... Ugh. I always miss things in my own work.

So, yeah, I'll throw my hat into the proofreading ring as well.
Treebore, effect and affect is a tough one that took me years to sort out... I can still feel the affects, er, you know.
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"Um... just how -does- one wield a vorpal gnome, man?"

Alcahaelas wrote:
Again, I'm not trying to put down the company or the community. The typos and such didn't ward me away but the editor in me can't help but notice the little things. Sorry if that offended anyone.

Trust me dadeo, if I hadn't wanted you to point out errors, I wouldn't have asked about them. Serleran is right, some of these are stylistic. My prose is a bit heavy sometimes and I try to turn a phrase that sounds a bit more archaic. That said mis-using words like there and their is obviously wrong.

What's the color coding you go going there?

To give a bit of explanation, I generally write this material (ad copy) and do it pretty quickly. I leave it for awhile and go back over it. This particular ad copy was read by three people, none looking to edit, but rather to embellish. Then I upload it, usually on the boards here first so people can have a fresh look at it and I fix it accordingly. Problem now is that I don't have instant access to the webpage, so when I find something I can't immediately fix it.

But if you guys see any errors like this on any page, it would be a huge favor if you would PM Aztecman so he can get it fixed.

Thanks!

Steve
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The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

We've had innumerable problems with editors. They generally do a good job on the first two or three books and crap out. My sister and Guy Lancaster have been the most consistently good (she did the AWD book, and as Treebore noted there aren't that many errors, and most of those are my misplaced words like Aenochia).

Problem is that, with something like the ad copy, I don't have time to send it to someone to edit it. I'm only barely on top of that part of the business as it is (I already work about 10 hours a day here) and all the copy is timed on Alliance's schedule. I don't have the capacity to stop and regroup for a month as we have to keep a presence out there or we get lost in the shuffle. Anyway, its not so much complicated as exhausting to explain (and I would rather be working on C2 right now).

As for finding an editor. Its tough, far tougher than one might think. And Serleran is right. I had someone edit my Lothian chronicles story for Crusader and they ripped it apart, changed words, sentences, phrases, meanings and the like. I dumped the edited copy.

Then the problem with checking on them. We've hired professional editors and the books they did, didn't come off so good. How do I get my money back? If Casey writes a crappy book I can say "rewrite" same with art. But not on editing. Its too much. But a solution must and will be found.

Steve
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The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

Troll Lord wrote:
We've had innumerable problems with editors. They generally do a good job on the first two or three books and crap out. My sister and Guy Lancaster have been the most consistently good (she did the AWD book, and as Treebore noted there aren't that many errors, and most of those are my misplaced words like Aenochia).

Problem is that, with something like the ad copy, I don't have time to send it to someone to edit it. I'm only barely on top of that part of the business as it is (I already work about 10 hours a day here) and all the copy is timed on Alliance's schedule. I don't have the capacity to stop and regroup for a month as we have to keep a presence out there or we get lost in the shuffle. Anyway, its not so much complicated as exhausting to explain (and I would rather be working on C2 right now).

As for finding an editor. Its tough, far tougher than one might think. And Serleran is right. I had someone edit my Lothian chronicles story for Crusader and they ripped it apart, changed words, sentences, phrases, meanings and the like. I dumped the edited copy.

Then the problem with checking on them. We've hired professional editors and the books they did, didn't come off so good. How do I get my money back? If Casey writes a crappy book I can say "rewrite" same with art. But not on editing. Its too much. But a solution must and will be found.

Steve

I can feel your pain here. What some small publishers (of comics and the like from my end) do is instead of having "real editors" they have people the trust (at least in an editing sense) just proofread and see if everything makes sense and is err-free. Some publishers have a small team, some have 1 or two people. Normally its volunteer work with some perks thrown in for a job well done. Or something like that. If there's a major problem in the proofreaders eyes they contact the writer/powers-that-be etc ("Uh, do you want this character to say this on this panel really?? It seems out of place and wrong"). So, maybe having a proofreader/s is the way to go.

The major downside to volunteers is that life can and will get in the way.

Just slinging some suggestions around if you don't mind
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"Um... just how -does- one wield a vorpal gnome, man?"

Write this day down, folks. Steve said I was right. Twice.

The key to having a good editor is making it known the level of editing you desire. If you want minimal editing--meaning, spelling and grammar checks and only pointing out sentences that read awkwardly without actually changing them, then that's the level of editing that should be done by a good editor. If you give them a broader scope (usually based on their experience and your comfort level with them) then they can edit content to a limited extent, of course with the intent of maintaining the original flavor and meaning.

As a writer and editor during the course of my technical career I understand the frustrations that can occur with bad editing as well as people that start out strong but lose steam quickly and fade out. I'm the coordinator of the Help Desk center where I work and believe me, I've seen a score of technical reps come and go over the years.
Note regarding the coloring--I just winged that. Red indicates awkward sentences, spelling errors and misused tense. The blue words note the redundancy of using wondrous, wonder and wondrous in a very short span of words. Green points out the inconsistency of the two spellings/hyphenation of the highlighted words.

Ah... Quality Assurance: Living off other peoples mistakes.
-Fizz

Editing isn't exactly easy either. It took me 3 hours to go through the Airhde Folio to find the 18 "errors" I found, and I didn't look for over use of words or comment on the wierd word useage, because I figured it was going for stylistic, just not as heavy as it was in the Codex.

I'm not saying use me heavily, but one or two a month? Yeah, I'm willing to give it a look over and see what I find.

Just don't send me modules. I want to buy those, and if I edit, I'll have it in my head and keep putting off buying it until I don't remember it anymore.

Books, I'll forget what I read 10 pages ago, so I'll get those as soon as they come out, if it was something I liked.

So if you have one or two 100 to 200 page books, and you need some eyes to look it over, send me the PDF. I'll even sign an NDA if you want. Not that you need it with me.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Fizz wrote:
Ah... Quality Assurance: Living off other peoples mistakes.
-Fizz

I suppose that would apply to many service-oriented professions. Police, military, lawyers, etc. If it were a perfect and peaceful world there would be no need for borders and security and other means of arbitration and defense.

Oh--you didn't put an apostrophe in "peoples" to show possession.

Can't wait!

Alcahaelas wrote:
Oh--you didn't put an apostrophe in "peoples" to show possession.

But what if I don't want to own an apostrophe ...or any sort of trophe for that matter?
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

How is it that everyone is a grammar expert these days?
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The Lord of Ravens
My blog

trollwad1 wrote:
See Troll announcement today

Teeth of Barkash Nour (shall I say Dahlver-Nar) sounds cool.

Since it is set in Zagyg (loosely), how will it handle PC access? In other words, will you have to have the first parts of Castle Zagyg to access it?

Any time associated with this - this year?

I thought trollwad1 had a good guestion from down in the CZ forum that I'd bring up here.

From what I understand in the Mouths of Madness adventurer in the CZ Eastmark Gaz, the question is asked in the website blurb, "Do these so-called Mouths of Madness provide ingress to the fabled dungeons below Castle Zagyg?"

Since The Gate of Horn (to access Teeth) is located under CZ, will "Mouths" allow this connection or do we wait for the full CZ Upper Works??

Thanks.
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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Julian Grimm wrote:
How is it that everyone is a grammar expert these days?

I cannot answer for anyone else but I have been doing copy editing/technical writing for 15 years.