Explaining Polytheism to a Monotheist.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:48 pm

Yeah, I don't want to get into a who's right or wrong argument or a my religion is better than yours debate. So let's not. However, this is an issue that I have repeatedly ran into in my gaming career.

In all honesty religion is a very minor role in my games and it is usually covered by less than a paragraph on beliefs and holidays. But, My wife and I were discussing our upcoming campaign and after we both read the article by Casey on building a setting we concluded that being monotheists we find the concept and practice of polytheism alien and hard enough to understand. That is Intellectually we know how the practice works but having not been a part of a polytheistic culture we are missing the whole of the practices of worship and meanings of it.

So I decided that maybe we could learn from some that may understand the practice more and eventually wrap our heads around the concept. As I said before we're not the only ones that have this issue as this has been a bump for many of my players.
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Yamo · Post by **Yamo** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:54 pm

Just think of it as a system of divine bureaucracies.

You don't go to the DMV to get a marriage license, right?

So why pray to the fire god for rain?

Responsibilities are compartmentalized. These things have to go through the proper channels, you see.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:02 pm

First, there are different types of polytheism, and the specific type might give a better understanding of the general practices. For example, there are pantheons where the gods are all considered equal, with none "more important" than another, but, specific to a specific thing. For example, you wouldn't pray to a god of war about childbirth (usually - there are times when you pray to multiple gods if there is some aspect of that god you're calling for, like, say, if you wanted a child like Achilles.) There tends to be few gods in a pantheon like this, as each god will tend to have multiple things they cover (think of it as spheres of influence.) Each god will typically be pretty powerful.

And then, there are the kinds where gods are arranged in a hierarchy, where each is relegated a status, and you work your way up, like following militayr protocol... if X didn't answer, you ask Y. This type of pantheon tends to have few very powerful beings, but lots of lesser beings.

There is also the combo-pack, where you have some combination of the above, like, say, God X is a wussy because all he does is Y. Here, you might have one really powerful god, some fairly mighty ones, and a crapton of one-offs that don't really do anything ("I'm the goddess of the river Grippa!")

There are, of course, numerous variations and comparisons to real-world religions to make, but I won't... since some of them would involve Christianity itself being treated as polytheistic, in some views.

Coleston the Cavalier · Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:27 pm

I'll add my two cents - with apologies to anybody who worships Roman gods today!

By the time of the Roman Empire, most folk had just one or maybe a small group of 2-3 gods that they actually paid homage to (celebrated holidays, gave monitary gifts. etc). But often only one god was their "patron," like the god the city was dedicated to.

Like today, many Romans paid little attention to religion, even though daily life was filled with rituals, symbols, etc with religious signifigance.

Some folks had even less use for the gods and treated their exploits like some today think of soap operas or some reality tv shows -in no way connected to the ordinary person's life.

With that said, a few were very religious and dedicated to forwarding the praise and appeal of their god, even fashioning their life around what they beleived to be their god's calling on them.

The early Christians were called "atheists" by the Romans because they beleived in only one deity. They couldn't imagine someone beleiving in just one god - that sounded almost primitive to them.

Just some thoughts that I hope help you get some feel for polytheism.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:51 pm

I'm not sure exactly what you are wanting to know, but I'll give it a shot. Like Serl pointed out, you have various types of Polytheism.so,depending on where you sit, some things may be different. I can only comment on my own particular "brand".

Various gods, goddesses and even ancestral spirits have various specialties to which you give tribute for. Alot of holy days have a special meaning to a certain divinity and you may focus on that during the holidays. Other holidays may be more "universal" wherein several members of your pantheon may be honored.

We have a few shrines in our home dedicated to different deities, some with various customs we carry out with. For example, on Fridays my wife makes extra food for supper and an extra plate is made and placed upon the Idesa shrine.

It doesn't seem odd to us, that is just how things are for our family. Its as normal as any thing else to us. In fact, in my homebrew world,clerics are representatives of an entire pantheon, not a single divinity (there can be specialists however). The polytheistic monotheism of the D&D worlds seems odd to me.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:51 pm

serleran wrote:
since some of them would involve Christianity itself being treated as polytheistic, in some views.

Actually I have ran onto this and don't entirely disagree with the theories. But I agree this could cause some controversy so we can take this to PM if need be.
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pactmaster · Post by **pactmaster** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:51 pm

As a polytheist myself, I describe it this way:

All major beliefs (with a deity), even those with multiple deities, believe in one supreme creator deity, including Hinduism, which also has a Supreme Being.

Most people can understand the belief in saints even if they are not Catholic. My analogy (which isn't intended to and so far hasn't infuriated any Catholics) points out that saints are somewhat like the lesser gods of other religions. Not exactly, but similar, each having their own sphere of influence. While they may be closer to us and therefore easier to contact (theoritically) they still defer to the one ultimate deity. The main difference being that the lesser deities are not (for the most part) ascended humans, but deities unto themselves.

A sticky topic, to be sure, but one that can be discussed in a mature and informative way.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:55 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Various gods, goddesses and even ancestral spirits...

Now we get into something interesting. I'd like to know more about these...I can explain why if you need me to.

Quote:
It doesn't seem odd to us, that is just how things are for our family. Its as normal as any thing else to us. In fact, in my homebrew world,clerics are representatives of an entire pantheon, not a single divinity (there can be specialists however). The polytheistic monotheism of the D&D worlds seems odd to me.

And there is where I get into the confusion. The D&D style is confusing speaking of polytheistic views in a monotheistic sense. This could be where the entire problem is.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:57 pm

pactmaster wrote:
As a polytheist myself, I describe it this way:

All major beliefs (with a deity), even those with multiple deities, believe in one supreme creator deity, including Hinduism, which also has a Supreme Being.

Most people can understand the belief in saints even if they are not Catholic. My analogy (which isn't intended to and so far hasn't infuriated any Catholics) points out that saints are somewhat like the lesser gods of other religions. Not exactly, but similar, each having their own sphere of influence. While they may be closer to us and therefore easier to contact (theoritically) they still defer to the one ultimate deity. The main difference being that the lesser deities are not (for the most part) ascended humans, but deities unto themselves.

A sticky topic, to be sure, but one that can be discussed in a mature and informative way.

This is something I noticed as well. And has helped me to try to wrap my head around it.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:16 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
Now we get into something interesting. I'd like to know more about these...I can explain why if you need me to.

In my family's faith, in addition to the gods, we also give honor to the Idesa (female ancestral spirits). You give them honor because it is from them that you come and it is them that are closest to your family. Our faith isn't really big on "praying" asking for assistance or whatever, but if you do it is generally the Idesa you turn to. Why? Because they have a "vested interest" in your family, you are their mortal kin. They are the closet and they are the most likely to "intervene" on your behalf especially in regards to matters which affect the well being of home and family.

Quote:
And there is where I get into the confusion. The D&D style is confusing speaking of polytheistic views in a monotheistic sense. This could be where the entire problem is.

Yeah, the D&D polytheism differs from our real world polytheism in my humble opinion. In D&D you have a universal pantheon in which people generally have a single patron they draw from. In the real world, pantheons are culturally defined, not universal and it is not uncommon for members of that culture to honor their entire pantheon, not just a single deity.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:57 pm

In general terms, an ancestral spirit is something, or someone, associated to your family, unique to you and yours, though others might have their own. The idea has been modernized as "guardian spirit" in many ways, but ranges from both those of a helpful nature, to those of a more malign one. These are not necessarily human-like (if you're into shamanism, for example, you might discover your ancestors are animals,) but always have human tendencies. Sometimes they are worshiped, other times they are just acknowledged (like The Day of the Dead or Samhain / Halloween). This type of structure exists in many portions of the world, and, if you've seen the Disney movie Mulan, you've seen it in action (I only say this because its a movie that wouldn't be offensive to at least watch to get a general idea of one way an ancestor spirit can be seen...)

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:42 am

Interesting. So what about your actual ancestors? Do they also have a part in this as well?
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:00 pm

Again,I only speak from my perspective JG. Generally, in most cases the ancestor spirits are given honor as a collective whole, not individually. Now, various ancestors may have pictures or items on our Idesa shrine however.

Ancestors usually receive individual mention during sumbel though. Sumbel is religious rounds of drinking and toasting, from a drinking horn.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:43 pm

Even Mexican Catholics still practice a form of ancestor worship.

Plus it kind of makes sense to me that if you want God to hear a plea from you, it just might more likely be given attention if you ask your grandfathers soul to deliver it, etc...

Plus I am a blasphemer in that I think the last people to know how God "works" is those among the living.

But yes, in a Polytheistic setting, which even our real world still is, is characterized by "compartmentalization". Specific powers/deities are responsible for specific things. Even Catholics today have saints to pray to for guidance and even to get your house sold.

So in a polythistic religion, such as that in Greyhawk, you pray to specific gods for specific things. You would only serve one, have it as your patron deity, if that deity is all about what is most important to your success in life. Like farmers pray to gods who help crops grow abundantly, so do merchants who make most of their money off of buying, shipping, and reselling those crops.

Hunters would worship gods of the hunt, or of animals, and either ask for their arrow to fly true, or for an animal to be willing to sacrifice itself to feed the hunter and his family.

Warriors/fighters would worship primarily gods that would help them live through their fights/battles.

And so on.

So its really just as simple as the beliefs of the people. Which means its very complex. Unless you only pay attention to the God your worried about and how you worship them.

Catholocims and Judaism are actually very complex. Especially if the Catholic happens to seriously venerate the many Saints of Catholocism. Even so, most still venerate the "father", "son", and "holy ghost" as separate entities, then others think they are all facets of God himself.

So real life religion is only as simple or complex as you want it to be.

The same can be said for the "fantasy" religions too.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:07 pm

I follow all this amazingly. Tanks for the help guys and it really is helping with my understanding of it in real life as well as in game terms. (And they say Christians are narrow minded )

Seriously though, I would like to think that ones actual ancestors do have a role in their families and in the life of their decendants. It is something that has made it into my games and a personal gut belief based on certain experiences in my own life.

In my games all families have a 'spiritual house' that their ancestors go to after they pass on. From there they guide the decendants and look out for them. At times say, an uncle who's favorite nephew is in some sort of crisis may have some guidance from the uncle either in a dream or in an actual, though rare, appearance. So family Heirlooms and history are an important part of life.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:17 pm

The only reason I can take "ancestor worship" seriously is I know that if there is anything I can do for my kids in the afterlife, I'm going to do it.

So I have been finding myself asking my recently deceased Grandparents for guidance/opinions. I haven't gotten any responses, but it feels good to do it. If nothing else it has seemed to open up paths of inspiration, so maybe I am getting answers, just not in a way I "know" its an answer.

Which fits right in with "faith" in general, so who knows?
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Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:35 pm

Treebore wrote:
Catholocims and Judaism are actually very complex. Especially if the Catholic happens to seriously venerate the many Saints of Catholocism. Even so, most still venerate the "father", "son", and "holy ghost" as separate entities, then others think they are all facets of God himself.

Official Catholic doctrine draws a distinction between worship and veneration. That is, an orthodox Catholic worships only God, understood as one god in three persons (theological language would avoid the terms entities or facets, both of which suggest different Trinitarian heresies*). Saints may be venerated, but never worshiped in the same sense as God. (Prayers to saints are viewed in much the same way as asking your friend to pray for you or your specific concern.) Using the Greek terms, rather than the English, helps with the distinctions. The adoration given to God is latria, while the honor given to saints is dulia or hyperdulia.

* I use the word in its strict sense, as it relates to official/orthodox Catholic doctrine, and not as a value judgment.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:05 am

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
Official Catholic doctrine draws a distinction between worship and veneration. That is, an orthodox Catholic worships only God, understood as one god in three persons (theological language would avoid the terms entities or facets, both of which suggest different Trinitarian heresies*). Saints may be venerated, but never worshiped in the same sense as God. (Prayers to saints are viewed in much the same way as asking your friend to pray for you or your specific concern.) Using the Greek terms, rather than the English, helps with the distinctions. The adoration given to God is latria, while the honor given to saints is dulia or hyperdulia.

* I use the word in its strict sense, as it relates to official/orthodox Catholic doctrine, and not as a value judgment.

Yeah, I know. Being raised Roman Catholic I saw many people where it would have been very hard to see the distinction.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:16 am

Not being a Catholic I find this very interesting and it does explain some things. Of course, I'm also not so fully convinced on the nature of the trinity as well. I've mulled all this over in my mind and have decided that the true nature of things is not really known and all we have is our best guesses.

Not downing anyone, just adding my 2 cents.
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