I would like to convert the current game I'm running from AD&D 2e to C&C. I plan on introducing this idea to my group, who have to the best of my knowledge never heard of C&C, this coming game session.
I would like to know how long you think it will take to convert the characters they have to C&C character sheets. Also, since as the GM I hold the sheets between game, do you think the players would mind if I did this for them prior to the session?
Basically, I want to switch systems without alienating my players, making them feel like they're losing control, or making them feel like they have no say in the direction of the game.
Advice appreciated.
-Ryan
Converting a game in progress
How long have you been running the campaign?
If it's been a long run, I'd suggest taking the time out of a game night to have everyone convert their characters at the table. That way they'd have some insight into how C&C works. Even if it's not an old campaign, I still wouldn't just surprise the players with it. My DM took some time to discuss everything with us before we switched, and gave us a chance to air out our beefs, before we finally jumped in feet first. His angle was a success, short term and long. He did a darn fine job of selling us on the game, and addressing our concerns beforehand.
If it's been a long run, I'd suggest taking the time out of a game night to have everyone convert their characters at the table. That way they'd have some insight into how C&C works. Even if it's not an old campaign, I still wouldn't just surprise the players with it. My DM took some time to discuss everything with us before we switched, and gave us a chance to air out our beefs, before we finally jumped in feet first. His angle was a success, short term and long. He did a darn fine job of selling us on the game, and addressing our concerns beforehand.
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gideon_thorne
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Re: Converting a game in progress
Honestly, run the game with Siege engine checks via C&C for a while. Leave the C&C book laying about so folks can look it over at their leisure. There's no reason why the skills, proficiency's and other details of 2e cant be run with attribute checks.
The only other real change, in essence, would be an AC going up instead of down, which is a simple calculation. Or even leave it the way it is. Its just a number after all and not all that relevant.
Personally, I wouldn't update the sheets themselves. Thats a sure fire way to have the players feel out of control. Instead, I recommend a paper clipped note onto each sheet noting the relatively minor change in die rolling procedure. The fact that a prime attribute is going to give the characters a +6 to their roll is going to make for some happy players if you think about it.
Emphasize the positives. Pretty much all your doing, or need to do, with C&C is making your work a bit more streamlined with a little less math involved. Even with the extra detail of rules in 2e, its not a huge leap.
My two cents anyhow. And I played 2e for a good long while.
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The only other real change, in essence, would be an AC going up instead of down, which is a simple calculation. Or even leave it the way it is. Its just a number after all and not all that relevant.
Personally, I wouldn't update the sheets themselves. Thats a sure fire way to have the players feel out of control. Instead, I recommend a paper clipped note onto each sheet noting the relatively minor change in die rolling procedure. The fact that a prime attribute is going to give the characters a +6 to their roll is going to make for some happy players if you think about it.
Emphasize the positives. Pretty much all your doing, or need to do, with C&C is making your work a bit more streamlined with a little less math involved. Even with the extra detail of rules in 2e, its not a huge leap.
My two cents anyhow. And I played 2e for a good long while.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
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ryguysolis
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Philotomy Jurament
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I wouldn't do a full conversion, immediately. Instead, just try adding in the SIEGE engine for ability checks/skills/NWPs, and maybe for saving throws. You can continue to use your current classes, monsters, and combat system, unchanged while seeing how the SIEGE engine works for you and your group (and the SIEGE engine is really the heart of C&C, IMO).
If that works out well, you can introduce other changes.
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If that works out well, you can introduce other changes.
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Breakdaddy
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Some good advice here. I am with Philotomy and Pete. Leave the characters alone and just give em primes and start using the SIEGE engine for a while. The relative power level between 2e and CnC is pretty similar, so if a PC dies or retires you can bring the players new PC in from CnC. You can also do the above and slowly start getting the players used to CnC while planning all along to fully convert the characters within an alotted timeframe. It will take very little time to convert 2e characters to CnC, but I would try just snapping the SIEGE engine on your 2e game to start and slowly convert from there. Im half asleep so sorry if this is rambling (more than usual )
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ryguysolis
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Jonathan of White Haven
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Re: Converting a game in progress
ryguysolis wrote:
I would like to convert the current game I'm running from AD&D 2e to C&C. I plan on introducing this idea to my group, who have to the best of my knowledge never heard of C&C, this coming game session.
I would like to know how long you think it will take to convert the characters they have to C&C character sheets. Also, since as the GM I hold the sheets between game, do you think the players would mind if I did this for them prior to the session?
As some of the others have suggested, not only does it not take a huge amount of time to convert existing 1E and 2E characters to C&C, but having the players themselves do the conversion under your direction is the better way to go. I'm not all that familiar with 2E, but it shouldn't be too difficult.
Quote:
Basically, I want to switch systems without alienating my players, making them feel like they're losing control, or making them feel like they have no say in the direction of the game.
Something you might consider doing before plunging into the conversion process: Have your players generate new "disposable" 1st level C&C characters and run them through a 1st level module. Include whatever house rules you currently have (or tailor them to C&C, if necessary.) Not only will your players get a chance to see what it would take to convert their existing characters, but it gives both you and them a taste for how the system works. This is what my DM, another player, and I did (with a fourth party acting as CK), and it showed us how much simpler (in game terms) C&C and the SIEGE engine were in comparison with the 1E rules. It sold us.
There will still be some rough spots to get over, especially if you're not quite sure about what you're doing. But in my opinion, C&C flows much more smoothly for new players than 1E AD&D ever did.
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Jonathan of White Haven
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ryguysolis wrote:
What could I do to make the transition easier on the fighter in the group with a 18/79 Str. It seems like in moving to a straight 18 in C&C he'll be the only one taking a power cut.
There's no difference (in pluses to hit and damage) in C&C between an 18 and 19 STR. They're both +3, so he'd still be taking a power cut. You could continue to use the AD&D STR bonus for fighters with exceptional (18/xx) strength, if you think it won't affect the game balance and would avoid a problem with that player.
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Plus, if you want, we have on line games via SKYPE twice per week (Monday and Wed, even alternating Sundays) that you can listen in on and ask questions, with 3 different CK's, with 3 different ways of running C&C.
We do 3 hour sessions, and questions would best be held until the end or we take bathroom breaks.
But I am sure all 3 of us would be willing to let you listen in. Then you can ask how you might do things in 2E, transition, etc...
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We do 3 hour sessions, and questions would best be held until the end or we take bathroom breaks.
But I am sure all 3 of us would be willing to let you listen in. Then you can ask how you might do things in 2E, transition, etc...
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Ah, I will post here what I posted on DF...
You could make the new character sheets, give them these new sheets, and then ask them if they are okay to try this set of rules. Now as to the change, it should be easy, but otherwise mostly depends on what they play. Here is some suggestions:
1) Assuming low to mid-level PCs, here is points to consider when reworking same character using C&C rules:
-- Cleric is mostly identical, yet has a slightly inferior BtH (Thac0). However, if you are regularly using other spells that from the PHB, that would be a good thing to allow these other spells (can be used as is). Also, specialty clerics may have to be converted if any.
-- Rogues should be better than thieves at skills, but have a slightly inferior BtH (Thac0).
-- Warriors with 18-percentage strength will be at a loss as exceptional strength don't exist in C&C. However, you could give 19 or 20 strength to a C&C character who had 18-percentage strength in AD&D.
-- Warriors will have less attacks per round than their AD&D counterparts at 7th and higher levels.
-- C&C rangers are more effective, but lack spells and two weapon fighting. I would prefer to play a C&C ranger over a AD&D2e ranger.
-- Wizards specialists would have to be converted over, but it's easy. Generalist wizards are slightly better in C&C, but I suggest to let them keep their AD&D spellbooks (i.e.: to keep versions of AD&D spells that don't exist in C&C).
-- Bards are very different. However, it's easy to convert the AD&D2e bard to C&C. In fact this leads me to another suggestion:
2) Converting AD&D characters to C&C style PCs. It's relatively easy to do: basically it's mostly inverting the Thac0 and AC systems, and changing percentages to +1 per level, but keeping other things mostly as they are.
-- Thac0 of 20 = BtH of +0 ; 19 becomes +1 ; 18 becomes +2 ; etc.
-- C&C AC = 20 - AD&D AC. (example: AC3 becomes AC 17)
-- % in skills are replaced by a straight +1 per level.
-- Remove weapons and non-weapons proficiencies. For W prof. give the list of weapons given to the same class in C&C. For NW prof. it's a little more tricky, see what's ability score is used the most and choose Prime accordingly. A character who has lot of NW prof. relying on Charisma should have Charisma as a prime for example.
-- AD&D saves disappear; in C&C saves are handled with an ability check.
-- Ability scores should use the C&C system. Percentage strength should be replaced by a strength of 19 or 20.
-- AD&D spells are most usable as they are in C&C.
-- Kits could be ported over relatively easily. I suggest that "bonus proficiencies" become bonus class skills.
All in all, converting AD&D to C&C should prove easy. Don't impose the change upon your players though; make the new char. sheets yourself, but just ask them to try during one or two session, then decide democratically if converting.
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You could make the new character sheets, give them these new sheets, and then ask them if they are okay to try this set of rules. Now as to the change, it should be easy, but otherwise mostly depends on what they play. Here is some suggestions:
1) Assuming low to mid-level PCs, here is points to consider when reworking same character using C&C rules:
-- Cleric is mostly identical, yet has a slightly inferior BtH (Thac0). However, if you are regularly using other spells that from the PHB, that would be a good thing to allow these other spells (can be used as is). Also, specialty clerics may have to be converted if any.
-- Rogues should be better than thieves at skills, but have a slightly inferior BtH (Thac0).
-- Warriors with 18-percentage strength will be at a loss as exceptional strength don't exist in C&C. However, you could give 19 or 20 strength to a C&C character who had 18-percentage strength in AD&D.
-- Warriors will have less attacks per round than their AD&D counterparts at 7th and higher levels.
-- C&C rangers are more effective, but lack spells and two weapon fighting. I would prefer to play a C&C ranger over a AD&D2e ranger.
-- Wizards specialists would have to be converted over, but it's easy. Generalist wizards are slightly better in C&C, but I suggest to let them keep their AD&D spellbooks (i.e.: to keep versions of AD&D spells that don't exist in C&C).
-- Bards are very different. However, it's easy to convert the AD&D2e bard to C&C. In fact this leads me to another suggestion:
2) Converting AD&D characters to C&C style PCs. It's relatively easy to do: basically it's mostly inverting the Thac0 and AC systems, and changing percentages to +1 per level, but keeping other things mostly as they are.
-- Thac0 of 20 = BtH of +0 ; 19 becomes +1 ; 18 becomes +2 ; etc.
-- C&C AC = 20 - AD&D AC. (example: AC3 becomes AC 17)
-- % in skills are replaced by a straight +1 per level.
-- Remove weapons and non-weapons proficiencies. For W prof. give the list of weapons given to the same class in C&C. For NW prof. it's a little more tricky, see what's ability score is used the most and choose Prime accordingly. A character who has lot of NW prof. relying on Charisma should have Charisma as a prime for example.
-- AD&D saves disappear; in C&C saves are handled with an ability check.
-- Ability scores should use the C&C system. Percentage strength should be replaced by a strength of 19 or 20.
-- AD&D spells are most usable as they are in C&C.
-- Kits could be ported over relatively easily. I suggest that "bonus proficiencies" become bonus class skills.
All in all, converting AD&D to C&C should prove easy. Don't impose the change upon your players though; make the new char. sheets yourself, but just ask them to try during one or two session, then decide democratically if converting.
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gideon_thorne
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ryguysolis wrote:
What could I do to make the transition easier on the fighter in the group with a 18/79 Str. It seems like in moving to a straight 18 in C&C he'll be the only one taking a power cut.
Simple, give the fighter a damage/to hit bonus that is representational of 'training' or some such. Perhaps he knows how to land blows a bit more efficiently than his fellows? Another possibility, you could allow the character to add their intelligence or wisdom bonus to damage/to hit if one or the other is prime and the modifier is high enough. This represents either trained knowledge of anatomy or refined instinct for the flow of combat.
Its not an official rule, but its a good piece of story telling bullshit that puts a good 'why' on prime development..
In fact this is some useful advice for canny and intelligent fighters in general to give them a bit more oomph.
An addendum I just thought of. Perhaps intelligence and or wisdom could be used for 'to hit' purposes, and the extra endurance provided by con could be for added damage.
Charisma prime could be used to offset AC of the adversary as an intimidation factor. This could require a charisma check to bluff one's adversary with BS first.
Ok.. ill shut up now... Too many ideas floating around in my head.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
Treebore wrote:
Plus, if you want, we have on line games via SKYPE twice per week (Monday and Wed, even alternating Sundays) that you can listen in on and ask questions, with 3 different CK's, with 3 different ways of running C&C.
We do 3 hour sessions, and questions would best be held until the end or we take bathroom breaks.
But I am sure all 3 of us would be willing to let you listen in. Then you can ask how you might do things in 2E, transition, etc...
I run the alternating Sunday game and I'd have no problem with you listening in. As for suggestions, I would talk to your group before switching. If they have any reservations, you could always run a 1 shot game so they can see how the system works.
R-
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CharlieRock
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ryguysolis
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CharlieRock wrote:
Don't forget that Quick-Start Rules for C&C are free at RPGNow. This can give your players a look at the game they don't have to fight over your books for.
Printed 4 copies courtesy of the University library this afternoon. Also, since one of the PCs is a barbarian I'm going to copy that page out of my book. I won't be attacked by Troll Lords for that will I? I don't get a bonus size modifier against large creatures so I sincerely hope not.
ryguysolis wrote:
Printed 4 copies courtesy of the University library this afternoon. Also, since one of the PCs is a barbarian I'm going to copy that page out of my book. I won't be attacked by Troll Lords for that will I? I don't get a bonus size modifier against large creatures so I sincerely hope not.
You can use whatever you need around your gaming table, its giving xeroxed/scanned copies of the books away for free that would be the problem.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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ryguysolis
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Skype Games...
I'd be interested in listening in on the Skype games (I plan on running one myself soon). What's the protocol for this?
Best,
~AoB
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Best,
~AoB
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~Adaen of Bridgewater, www.highadventuregames.com