This was a rather interesting find:

[slimykuotoan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mzciu8Hv ... re=related

[CharlieRock]

Quote:
On Aug. 4th 2007, the Senate passed the Bush backed 'spy bill', which preserves & expands the illegal domestic spying program

So if congress passed it and the president signs it ... how is it illegal?
Immoral? Maybe, and that is certainly debatable. But someone slipshod enough not to know the difference faces an uphill battle to convince me of any sort of conspiracy.
_________________
The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[serleran]

It could be illegal if it is un-Constitutional, such as not Mirandizing someone, which was perfectly acceptable some 40 years ago, but is now a free ticket out of jail.

[CharlieRock]

Constitutions can be changed. Alcohol, slvery, income taxes. Nothing new there.

Edit: From personal experience, the Miranda thing isn't quite the free ticket out it may have been before.
_________________
The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[GameOgre]

Sorry but IMHO 20% of the laws made in this country are un-Constitutional. To be honest as far as the spy bill, I see why the changes were"needed" and understand the reason behind it BUT what laws you pass today will be expanded and made broader tomorrow.

And yes I do think being unable to stop a terrorist attack as a result of not being able to track them would be worth it.

You cant defend this country by stomping over the rights that make it a worthwile country in the first place.
_________________
Baron Golden, Knights of the Tin Palace (GameOgre)

Subscriber to Crusader Magazine!
http://www.cncsociety.org

[CharlieRock]

That may be immoral, and I don't fret too much if it is. But loose pseudo-intellectual arguments won't convince me there is a giant well-organized conspiracy. I've worked for the government. It is one of the most haphazard organizations around.
_________________
The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[serleran]

Aye. I worked for the FAA a scant few weeks after the 9/11 attack, doing some security work for a couple LA-area airports (setting computer systems, biometrics, and that sort of thing) and the government is psychotic.

One of the cardinal rights of an individual in any government, save a dictatorship, is freedom from the government.

[CharlieRock]

serleran wrote:
One of the cardinal rights of an individual in any government, save a dictatorship, is freedom from the government.

My favorite daydream is getting on a spaceflight out to colonize a brand new (bereft of government) planet. Hopping off the ship first, right after slapping the "Return to Earth Auto-Pilot" button.
_________________
The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[Catweazle]

CharlieRock wrote:
That may be immoral, and I don't fret too much if it is. But loose pseudo-intellectual arguments won't convince me there is a giant well-organized conspiracy. I've worked for the government. It is one of the most haphazard organizations around.

Very true; Few governments have ever embarked upon skillfully-planned, perfectly-executed scemes to rob their citizens of their hard-won rights. They just bumble along, looking for opportunities to make things easier for themselves, let the people disenfranchise themselves and save the gov't the trouble, and to line their own pockets while they're at it.

And damnit if we don't just hand those opportunities over by the fistful.

I myself, living where I do, have spent my whole life under threat of terrorist attack. They almost got me once in fact (look up "Birmingham Pub Bombings" if you're interested- there's a bit of an odd tale of how our family escaped being killed). And yet, Blair and his cronies, especially but not limited to Blunkett, have spent the last years telling us that we are in greater danger than ever before, as though the bombings on the 7th of July '05 were the first Londan had seen since the Blitz. They may fool the microwave-pizza generation with its mayfly memory, but they don't fool me.

You mustn't allow two hundred-odd years of liberty and personal rights, won with generations of pain, blood and damned hard graft, to be pissed away in fright.

And I'll try to stop us from doing the same!
_________________
History teaches us that men behave wisely once they've exhausted all other alternatives.

[CharlieRock]

Catweazle wrote:
They may fool the microwave-pizza generation with its mayfly memory, but they don't fool me.

You mustn't allow two hundred-odd years of liberty and personal rights, won with generations of pain, blood and damned hard graft, to be pissed away in fright.

And I'll try to stop us from doing the same!

Love that bit about the micro-wave pizza generation.
Where did you get the part about Liberty and Personal Rights getting pissed away? Like you I had several close calls. My house got shot up in a drive by. Family members murdered. Drug dealers plying their wares on the corner unmolested by the cops. Gangs chasing me down alleyways.

What was I pissing away in fright? Because now the cops are actually doing cop stuff like looking for bad guys?
_________________
The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[Catweazle]

No, that's not what I mean at all. I'm not anti-police, not even anti-government, as long as both have a very close eye kept on them.

What I'm talking about is the continual pressure put on people to give up "inconvenient" rights in the name of some ever-changing emergency that'll just happen to last forever.

For instance, the current government is incredibly keen to introduce compulsory ID cards for all British citizens. They'll be linked to government records that'll have everytthing stored on a database. It'll cost tens of billion of pounds by the time they're finished and we're expected to foot that bill ourselves directly.

At first they said it was to protect us from the eevil terrorists. Then since we were unimpressed, it became the eevil benefit cheats. Then the eevil illegal imigrants. Then the eevil identity thieves, which given a couple of revelations lately has been something of a shot in their own foot. It changed from week to week, but it all boiled down to something we fought two world wars and sacrificed two generations to prevent. We simply don't have the national mindset that wants it to become a criminal offence to leave home without your wallet. And it will do NOTHING to stop terrorism. It'll just be a one-stop shop for identity theft.

While, as you point out, far more widespread and dangerous crimes go unchallenged.

Terrorism is just the new bogeyman; there'll be another one for the next generation, but the exhortations will be the same.
_________________
History teaches us that men behave wisely once they've exhausted all other alternatives.

[CharlieRock]

Catweazle wrote:
While, as you point out, far more widespread and dangerous crimes go unchallenged.

So really what is the difference? Let them do what they want with phone records or identity cards. Maybe they'll actually catch a bad guy. It's not any worse for me that now it's terrorists and last week it was gangbangers and the week before it was crackheads. It's been the same situation for me for quite awhile, except now people that really aren't put out about it are pist.

Did you think the government wouldn't tax you if they weren't building a giant monkey house of ID cards? If it wasn't that it would be a bigger stadium. That's what my town and county just passed a new tax on last year. And this year they are talking about building another one. It's not like they are one day going to go "Hey, we don't need to have all this tax money. Let's stop raising taxes all the time, guys."

Edit: I don't like where this conversation is going. And I hate politics. Ciao, dudes.
_________________
The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[Omote]

CharlieRock wrote:
"Hey, we don't need to have all this tax money. Let's stop raising taxes all the time, guys."

Well, say what you will but when the new democratic president gets elected to the White House, taxes going down will be long, long gone. You have a problem now with the way the governments works, wait until real big government comes out to say hi in 2009.

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Catweazle]

CharlieRock wrote:
So really what is the difference? Let them do what they want with phone records or identity cards. Maybe they'll actually catch a bad guy. It's not any worse for me that now it's terrorists and last week it was gangbangers and the week before it was crackheads. It's been the same situation for me for quite awhile, except now people that really aren't put out about it are pist.

Did you think the government wouldn't tax you if they weren't building a giant monkey house of ID cards? If it wasn't that it would be a bigger stadium. That's what my town and county just passed a new tax on last year. And this year they are talking about building another one. It's not like they are one day going to go "Hey, we don't need to have all this tax money. Let's stop raising taxes all the time, guys."

Edit: I don't like where this conversation is going. And I hate politics. Ciao, dudes.

Hey, no problem. I've never seen why an honest difference of opinion has to become acrimonious, despite the Internet's reputation otherwise! Anyway, it's a good question; I hope nobody minds if I answer?

The problem is the false dichotomy that is being presented. It's not a case of "Give the government free rein or be bombed in your bed by mad foreigners". The successful prevention of crime in any form, or the prosecution of its perpetrators, does not require us to live in a totalitarian state. In fact, the very opposite is generally true. When unregistered phone taps, detainment without charge or trial, unmonitored interviews and unauthorised searches become common, working in law enforcement starts to attract a very different sort of officer.

The sort who belongs behind bars, in fact. Doing a thorough and conscientious job is rarely at the top of their priority list.

You see, it does nothing to take criminals off the streets, this kind of thinking. It just puts them in uniform, where they truly are a terror. By then, by the time someone is breaking into our houses, robbing us in the street or assaulting our loved ones, it's a good chance they're wearing uniforms, and we do not dare to voice an objection.

Please don't dismiss these concerns as the ramblings of an internet nutjob with tinfoil in his hat. I'm not an ararchist, nor do I live in paranoid terror of Them; in fact my views on law and order are probably more draconian than many. I just read my history. There is NO COUNTRY in the world where this has not already happened. None. We are dealing with established fact, not flights of fancy. The network of checks and balances has been painstakingly pieced together is there because it had to be.

Terrorism is a bogeyman. The true risk is miniscule; we are all far more likely to die in plane crashes.

And as for ID cards? This is the government that has lost (yes, lost in the post!) the confidential financial and medical records of well over a million people. And I'm seriously supposed to trust them with records of my DNA, biological key indicators, and complete personal record?

They're asking me that with a straight face? Come on.
_________________
History teaches us that men behave wisely once they've exhausted all other alternatives.

[GameOgre]

Quote:
This is the government that has lost (yes, lost in the post!) the confidential financial and medical records of well over a million people. And I'm seriously supposed to trust them with records of my DNA, biological key indicators, and complete personal record?

I was on the USS Pen a SSBN almost 20 years ago and was informed by the government 3 years ago that the entires crew information from 1989 was stolen from a laptop. they have no clue who has it. what they are doing with it and they have all our SS# and medical information as well as other personal information. I was told to be aware of this fact.
WTH?? I wouldnt trust them to water my grass for me if I was going out of town.
_________________
Baron Golden, Knights of the Tin Palace (GameOgre)

Subscriber to Crusader Magazine!
http://www.cncsociety.org

[slimykuotoan]

Catweazle wrote:
What I'm talking about is the continual pressure put on people to give up "inconvenient" rights in the name of some ever-changing emergency that'll just happen to last forever.

The scary thing is that governments don't want us having these conversations, so the internet's been a big worry for them, as they are unable to control information.

As seen when U.S. soldiers started posting 'none to funny' images of Iraq on youtube, and the military began banning any war images on the internet citing: "Problems with bandwith" as their concern.

So only smiling faces of soldiers once again on posters for us.

So time for the internet boggyman: child porn, terrorists, etc.

"...the US government has greatly increased the scope of legislation introduced in 1994, regarding the electronic monitoring of telecommunications providers.

The legislation, known as the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA) obliges telephone companies to make it possible for law enforcement agencies to intercept any phone conversations carried out over its networks, as well as making call records available. The act also stipulates that it must not be possible for a person to detect that his or her conversation is being monitored by the respective government agency.

An order issued by the Federal Communications Commission in August and first published in the Federal Register of October 13 extends the requirement of the 1994 legislation to cover broadband Internet access services, including wireless and voice-over-IP (VoIP) Internet telephony services."

And when google was forced to hand over all search records made by consumers to the U.S. government, google promptly told the public that the government requested records having nothing to do with pornography searches.

Oh well, better talk while we can.

[serleran]

Mmm, Project Wolverine coming into fruition. Big brother is out there, and he's in your head. Judas Priest was right!

[slimykuotoan]

It's pretty funny the way things work for those at the top:

Hmm, google fights U.S. government order to access all of our searches, then gives in, then alerts people government accessed info having nothing to do with porn, then shuts up about it, then gets lucrative contract actually working for the federal intelligence community.
http://www.fcw.com/print/11_39/news/90984-1.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02359.html

hmm...

[slimykuotoan]

Watch some politicians squirm live, when questioned by a youtuber:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOZIGPUPQVc

And Ron Paul 'owns' the Federal Reserve:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4kxTkhw ... re=related

[Treebore]

I have accepted that "the american way" is a carefully fabricated illusion with smoke screens freshened every once in a while to keep up appearances.

America is now the land of "being milked", and has been for decades. Milking techniques are just getting very fine tuned.

Our government isn't here to pretect the american public, they are here to protect and expand the corporate bottom line.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Omote]

Treebore wrote:
Our government isn't here to pretect the american public, they are here to protect and expand the corporate bottom line.

Let's assume that this is a true statement, Treebore. If so, wouldn't you say that by protecting the bottom line, you are also then protecting the public?

Also, if you take the view that America is nothing more then a big corporation, then wouldn't protecting the public be THE primary way to keep your America corporation in business?

Don't let the media, and extremist left wingers TELL you that this government is not trying to protect the public. Yeah, maybe this country is not perfect, and we haven't found a way to protect all 300 million Americans yet, but I challange you to find a single country on this planet that is perfect. You won't because that utopia does not exist. Trust me, I am not blinded by mistakes by U.S. policy, but bet your bottom dollar that the U.S. government is not actively seeking to raise a bottom line by hurting its public. FORGET THAT!

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[gideon_thorne]

Omote wrote:
Let's assume that this is a true statement, Treebore. If so, wouldn't you say that by protecting the bottom line, you are also then protecting the public?

Also, if you take the view that America is nothing more then a big corporation, then wouldn't protecting the public be THE primary way to keep your America corporation in business?

That would be the sensible course, sure. But as history has shown, despots rarely ever take the sensible course of keeping their sheep fat for the eventual slaughter.

Knowing a number of folks who live on the low end of the economic scale, its easy to see how the practice of paying the least amount one can for the most work out of a person, instead of paying people what they are worth, has tipped the scales of rich vs poor into a c**k eyed margin.

And since it is to the best interest of a privileged few to keep it that way, its easy to see how and why these folks have effectively bought the government.

Those of privilege can hardly see, from their rarefied heights, how the lives are of those who put them there.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[slimykuotoan]

The problem Omote, is that you're a good person.

Eh?

Yip, believe it or not, this can be a problem:

I get that sense that you and I are fairly decent human beings -through our upbringings- and it therefore follows that we wouldn't think of actively hurting others.

So we often assume others observe and follow the same logic we do.

Unfortunately, 'others' really don't.

While the common masses go to schools and learn things like: thou shall not steal, careful not to hurt others' feelings, honesty is the best policy, etc...

...others go to elite and private -often super private- schools to learn a very different set of messages...

Indeedy, it really can be quite a horrific experience, when some of the 'goings on' reaches the light of the common masses.

[serleran]

I need some tea.

[Omote]

What makes people in this day and age so jaded, and filled with angst against the US government? What is it in YOUR life that makes you hate the way our government works? I just don't understand.

Are you mad at the gas prices? Are you mad at healthcare? What is wrong?

OK, so the topic here is based on the fact that the United States upped the Patriot Act, and has developed more laws and legislation that pay attention to what a citizen of the US does. I understand that you feel like the gov't is getting into your business, but why would one think that this legislation is not put in place to protect America?! The fact of the matter is that if the Patriot Act existed before 9/11, certain events may not have happened. I'm not saying that they wouldn't happen, but there would have been more safeguards. If another event like 9/11 were to happen, the people of the USA would blame the gov't... I fear that I'm getting too far off topic, so I'll just sum up quickly here.

For the most part, the US government is taking care of it's citizens the best way possible. The explosion of the US culture, the internet and the ability to access and manipulate information is growing at in geometric rate. The US gov't (and most other gov'ts) cannot keep up, but IS trying as hard to keep the American way of life going as Americans have enjoyed it for the past 231 years. To do that is massively difficult. People in office today have to make the tough decisions to ensure OUR way of life in the coming decades.

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[gideon_thorne]

Omote wrote:
What makes people in this day and age so jaded, and filled with angst against the US government? What is it in YOUR life that makes you hate the way our government works? I just don't understand.

Are you mad at the gas prices? Are you mad at healthcare? What is wrong?

Yes. The one is unnecessary, and the health care system in this nation is a disaster. And the system of government doesn't work the way it was intended and hasn't done so since the early 1800's.

Quote:
OK, so the topic here is based on the fact that the United States upped the Patriot Act, and has developed more laws and legislation that pay attention to what a citizen of the US does. I understand that you feel like the gov't is getting into your business, but why would one think that this legislation is not put in place to protect America?! The fact of the matter is that if the Patriot Act existed before 9/11, certain events may not have happened.

This is not true. The events would have happened exactly the same way because the causal factors that enabled them would still exist. Its not tighter security, and the erosion of the values of the US that is needed. Its learning to live with the differences in other cultures and respecting them that is needed.
One doesn't use unconstitutional means to protect the constitution. That way lay victory for ones enemy's.

Quote:
I'm not saying that they wouldn't happen, but there would have been more safeguards. If another event like 9/11 were to happen, the people of the USA would blame the gov't... I fear that I'm getting too far off topic, so I'll just sum up quickly here.

The Patriot act and all its provisions are doing exactly nothing to protect the nations borders. Security is just as permeable, if not more so. But now, on top of that, there is a resentful nation uninterested in cooperating with those who abuse their elected authority.

Quote:
For the most part, the US government is taking care of it's citizens the best way possible. The explosion of the US culture, the internet and the ability to access and manipulate information is growing at in geometric rate. The US gov't (and most other gov'ts) cannot keep up, but IS trying as hard to keep the American way of life going as Americans have enjoyed it for the past 231 years. To do that is massively difficult. People in office today have to make the tough decisions to ensure OUR way of life in the coming decades.

-O

Ah. No. I'm afraid not. The illusion is there, but the slow erosion of education, the poor health care and general health of the people this nation, the vast increase in poverty, lack of affordable health care and over all apathy of the populace is a far cry from being 'taken care of in the best way possible. You assume a lot more nobility in our elected officials than I do. I know from up close and personal experience that it just isn't there in significant enough force to matter.

The people in this nation need to take back their government and elect responsible representatives who know how to look to the future and not all this short sighted business of the last few decades.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Omote]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Ah. No. I'm afraid not. The illusion is there, but the slow erosion of education, the poor health care and general health of the people this nation, the vast increase in poverty, lack of affordable health care and over all apathy of the populace is a far cry from being 'taken care of in the best way possible. You assume a lot more nobility in our elected officials than I do. I know from up close and personal experience that it just isn't there in significant enough force to matter.

The people in this nation need to take back their government and elect responsible representatives who know how to look to the future and not all this short sighted business of the last few decades.

I will admit that this country has made mistakes, and that not every step is being taken to protect us... but steps ARE being taken. The Healthcare system is failing, and failing fast (because of the crappy system of law which enabled people to friviously sue, amoung other reasons), but I challange you to name a perfect healthcare system... and don't tell me socialized medicine like Canada is the answer, because I can go back and forth all day on that argument.

Fact of the matter is that the Government is not resonsible for every aspect of the US citizen's life. One of the biggest problems as I see it is lazy Americans who wontonly spend their savings and get into massive debt, and cannot afford to pay for themselves. I see it daily. Americans have no self control, blame everybody else for their problems, and ask the government to bail them out... and cry foul when the gov't does nothing.

Americans need elect, responsible, people. This is true. But americans need to take some responsibility

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[gideon_thorne]

Quote:
I will admit that this country has made mistakes, and that not every step is being taken to protect us... but steps ARE being taken. The Healthcare system is failing, and failing fast (because of the crappy system of law which enabled people to friviously sue, amoung other reasons), but I challange you to name a perfect healthcare system... and don't tell me socialized medicine like Canada is the answer, because I can go back and forth all day on that argument.

I can't name a perfect system. But I can name a block of nations who have far superior systems. The whole of europe as one example. But if your not going to listen to information about a system that does work, and very well I might add, whats the point?

Quote:
Fact of the matter is that the Government is not responsible for every aspect of the US citizen's life. One f the biggest problems as I see it is lazy Americans who wantonly spend their savings and get into massive debt, and cannot afford to pay for themselves. I see it daily. Americans have no self control, blame everybody else for their problems, and ask the government to bail them out... and cry foul when the gov't does nothing.

But people who are elected to represent the people ARE responsible for representing the people properly. That is the reality of the system of government chosen by this nation. And America is demanding certain things, and the representatives are not listening. Its the job of the representatives of the people to do as they are told, full stop.

I see that non sequitur argument offered all the time. No one is suggesting that every aspect of life be brought under control. But a prudent safety net would not go amiss. No one in europe, for example, ends up broke or homeless because of high medical costs.

Its not the self control of the american people thats the problem. Its all the catch 22's in the various involuted laws that is the problem. People aren't wantonly spending their savings. They are having to dig into money they would otherwise save for retirement because the cost of heathcare is beyond the pale. My folks, for example, can't retire completely because of the cost of medication they have to come up with every month. And yes, they have very good insurance, and yet still have to come up with thousands of dollars every month. Were they still in europe, they would not have that problem.

I can cite literally hundreds of examples of hard working and responsible people who, despite having good jobs, are barely scraping because of out of control costs of living.

Quote:
Americans need elect, responsible, people. This is true. But americans need to take some responsibility

The majority is trying. Unfortunately a minority group of uncaring rich despots, who control the oil, tobacco, and pharmacological industries is blocking them. ^_~`
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Eisenmann]

Omote, I'm with you on this subject.

A common gripe is that oil companies charge too much for gasoline, etc. Truth of the matter is that adjusted costs are lower than they "ought to be", said from a purely economics viewpoint. Oil companies do not decide the cost at the pump. That is "decided" in great part in the futures market.

I hear a lot about how Europe does things better than here in the US. I've been there. They don't. Their healthcare systems are okay but going broke as fast or faster than that of other 1st world nations. Remember, they didn't pay for their own national security for over 50 years. In lieu they developed social programs and now they're coming apart. Europe is having the same exact demographic problem as we are with the ratio of workers to non-workers. Only the issue there is more dramatic because the misery index (tax rate) is higher and that the programs are almost universally viewed as an entitlement. Couple that with double digit unemployment rates.

On security issues here in the US. A lot of good people put their necks on the line for us both overseas and here at home. We've got an enemy that is using our system against us. That's a fact. What is the alternative? Wait till they subvert the Constitution via its use? This is no easy question with no easy answer and I'm not sure how to answer it really. I'm in a position to know about what happens in the US regarding security. And you know what? I almost never hear about the incidents in the reports. And they aren't secret! If the incidents were of US law enforcement screwing up you darned well know that it would be front page/lead news.

A major problem is that we've got, to put it into game terms, rules lawyer weasels embedded in the permanent bureaucracy that is the Federal Government. They're unelected and can't be voted out of office. A president, any president cans them and it's a major news story that MUST BE INVESTIGATED!

I used to rail against government corruption till I looked at myself and the rest of society and realized that you get the government you deserve. The ancient greek philosophers had it figured out. Nothing here will change till "we" figure it out and discover that the problem is "us" not some vague "they" or "them".

Edit:

Yes, when unseemly photos were coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan the clamp was put down. I dunno, but I agree with that. I want to win this.

But I also know that there are bandwidth issues. It's not because it's a bad design, it's because bandwidth is not unlimited. I've had actual conversations with the individual who designed the com network for OIF.

[slimykuotoan]

For anyone who's interested:

If you ever get sick of the lies...

If you ever want something new...

...feel free to send me all of your money and I will agree to be the planet's sorcerer god-king.

I'll start with some agressive research into cybernetics etc...ever augmenting my body...

...until you'll eventually see my giant, arachnid form looming on the horison, my auto-sensor tendrils hooked into every satellite relay...etc.

Just think of the possibilities people...er...underlings!!!