Godd and Bad News

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:35 pm

I just read that rust monster article and I thought I'd type this in before I plucked my eyes out for reading such trash.

Anyhoo, I'm with the C&C crowd pretty much. We have all the things the 3e guys don't, A decent company behind the product, the best mix of oldschool designers and newcomers, a system that can be learned quick and that doesn't cost and arm and a leg.

Add in that the Trolls are not far from Missouri which is my home and the desire to support companies from this area mixed with the typical ozarks distrust of anything coming from the west coast and it's a no brainer which company to support.

TLG forever LOL!
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:35 am

I don't hate playing 3E, Kyle, I just hate DMing it. I could probably enjoy DMing just the Core books only, but I haven't ran in to many 3E players interested in playing such a "horribly restrictive" game. Meaning none.

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:00 am

I am most definitely in the "hate d20 Fantasy" crowd.

Don't ask me to spell out the reasons again, please? I'd have to try and dig up the twenty reasons post I threw up on Usenet in 2000, and I really don't want to have to go through Google Groups right now to find it.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:16 pm

Traveller wrote:
I am most definitely in the "hate d20 Fantasy" crowd.

Don't ask me to spell out the reasons again, please? I'd have to try and dig up the twenty reasons post I threw up on Usenet in 2000, and I really don't want to have to go through Google Groups right now to find it.

You have just 20 reasons? Why so few?
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vestinious · Post by **vestinious** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:51 pm

I have never had that many problems with D20.

I see it as a alternate take on classic AD&D/D&D and so for me is just a difference of ruling (as with Hackmaster and C&C).

It is also good to see the mechs used in the OGL for other genre's, some being just a D20+sci-fi or in others a complete rewrite of the rules but still familier.

BUT the one thing that got up my nose in a big way was WoTC going all guns in launching D&D 3rd edition with Greyhawk as its core and then with the release of Forgotten Realms they just dropped it - WHY?

Also I have found that WoTC get a bit picky with some comments about their products (this is from a playtest POV), and so I cant go into details.

Anyway it has given the RPG market a big boast in new gamers so it cant be all bad.

Rog.

Thulcondar · Post by **Thulcondar** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:00 pm

vestinious wrote:
BUT the one thing that got up my nose in a big way was WoTC going all guns in launching D&D 3rd edition with Greyhawk as its core and then with the release of Forgotten Realms they just dropped it - WHY?

Personally, I think that's a good thing.

If they drop it, they won't be screwing it up any more.

Thul

vestinious · Post by **vestinious** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:11 pm

Thulcondar wrote:
Personally, I think that's a good thing.

If they drop it, they won't be screwing it up any more.

Thul

You have a very good point there, lets try and get them to drop Dragonlance before the movie comes out.

PeelSeel2 · Post by **PeelSeel2** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:53 pm

Hmmmm....WOW. I just read that article. They are way off base with what pen and paper RPG's are IMO. I started gaming with Redbox D&D and AD&D 1st. Progressed through 2nd edition and then quit. I started up again with 3.5E, and liked it for the most part. It was still fun at low levels, but levels come too fast and are not challenging unless you want 8hr combat. Then C&C came along and got me back to the roots of the game. Combats are fast, and it easier to challenge characters at higher levels.

Why do people get together around a table? To have fun. Sometimes that fun is not 'fair' to the players (or characters). But fairness is never a goal of a RPG. Rule balance has never been a goal of a RPG. The main goal is to have fun with the adventures, get to put forth good ideas or crazy ones, and see if they work. This is not a 'fair' process. It is a chaotic process which keeps gamers coming back for more. Most players (even 'new' ones, which most of my group is) know that the odds are going to be stacked against them. They also know that I am a 'fair' DM. The rules do not have to be. Life is not fair. A mirror of life, of sorts, is what makes a good RPG. Things happen, characters die, they lose money, they get taken in by scoundrels, and they also win.

If I want fair and balances rules I will play Diablo. Man that article just says they are really out of touch.
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ZeornWarlock · Post by **ZeornWarlock** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:22 am

PeelSeel2 wrote:
Hmmmm....WOW. I just read that article. They are way off base with what pen and paper RPG's are IMO. I started gaming with Redbox D&D and AD&D 1st. Progressed through 2nd edition and then quit. I started up again with 3.5E, and liked it for the most part. It was still fun at low levels, but levels come too fast and are not challenging unless you want 8hr combat. Then C&C came along and got me back to the roots of the game. Combats are fast, and it easier to challenge characters at higher levels.

Why do people get together around a table? To have fun. Sometimes that fun is not 'fair' to the players (or characters). But fairness is never a goal of a RPG. Rule balance has never been a goal of a RPG. The main goal is to have fun with the adventures, get to put forth good ideas or crazy ones, and see if they work. This is not a 'fair' process. It is a chaotic process which keeps gamers coming back for more. Most players (even 'new' ones, which most of my group is) know that the odds are going to be stacked against them. They also know that I am a 'fair' DM. The rules do not have to be. Life is not fair. A mirror of life, of sorts, is what makes a good RPG. Things happen, characters die, they lose money, they get taken in by scoundrels, and they also win.

If I want fair and balances rules I will play Diablo. Man that article just says they are really out of touch.

You said it!
ZW.

Bowbe · Post by **Bowbe** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:20 am

Combat_Kyle wrote:
I am not in the hate 3E crowd. I really liked 3E, I played it with a bunch of guys in the Marines and to date was the best gaming group I've ever been in. 3E was extenively playtested and created by gamers not businessmen, the 3E core rules are still a great system IMO. What went wrong was 3.5E this is when those grubby suits from Hasbro ruined everything. 3.5 is nothing more than a vessel to sell WoTC D&D minis.

Anyway, C&C is my game of choice, Crusade on!

Very well said.

Also, as I mentioned on my normal haunt in the Necromancer Games Forums.. and I mention here... the whole article about the well known and revered/reviled/respected RM is just that an article from a former 3ed/3.5 ed small print author who is now testing his skills with the "big boys" for the official R&D department at his new job for WOTC. To my knowledge the article was just that, an article giving an insight into the machinations of the current crew of R&D people with WOTC. I haven't checked the SRD monsters section yet today but I'm pretty sure that the SRD version of the RM is still a metal eating armor and weapon destroying bastard same as it always was and more importantly always SHOULD be.

To be quite frank, if it isn't in paper print "stamped" as the difinitive final say on the matter then it isn't anything but an article. I'm not afraid of articles. Articles don't ruin the games I run or the adventures I write. Web based articles, like my own post here mean very little in the grand scheme of things. They don't have the punch of an official printed version or a justified and legal document beyond the copywright it is written under (if there is one). Hell I never used 3/4ths of the junk that was in old Dragon Magazines for more than a bit of seasoning to my own campaign.

I've stated elsewhere that worrying and hanging on every thread of what comes out of some message board, article, or unnoficial stuff that comes from an official source (even myself) is nothing more than Nerd Fu designed to stirr up the masses into a visceral frenzy! Keee YAH!

I think that the article has created more of a fire-storm than was expected or intended and at very least has exposed for a larger set of gamers the divide between current "official" 3.5 development at WOTC and what the home gamer expects out of their game. It has also re-opened wounds of edition wars that bloom and fade from time to time.

Thats an awesome thing for games like C&C because pissed off people tend to look for a different game to play rather than quit playing games all-together. Steve and Davis could easily put out an add in a trade magazine stating "C&C.. we have real Rust Monsters!" just to get some free press out of the deal. They won't but I would. I'm Eeeevil and have a black belt Nerd Fu!
Some posters on various boards have been of course their usual parrot selves. Chirping on what is expected of them and embracing any suggested changes as if they are "the way things always should have been all along." You know the ones, they go to extremes to find ways to drag E.G.G. down as their Nerd Fu Fighting stance of choice. Dispicable but all too common in my opinion.

Others will look at the developments, assume they are the new scripture, not look further into the matter and say "tis a load of crap and I'm done with em!" Such is always the case and we all know honestly always has been.

I won't fault the author of the article. Think about it folks. He is living his gamer dream come true to the max right now. He got the go ahead run from the company that owns the trademark to his favorite game of all time to go and work for them. His current boss gave him the nod to fiddle faddle with its design elements. Not bad for someone who like the rest of us is a total FAN of gaming. I don't know of a whole lot of people in his position who would turn that chance down.

I know of a crap-load of old-schoolers who initially embraced and enjoyed 3.0 and house ruled the things they found to be crap from that system just as they house ruled stuff they thought was crap 30 years ago. They didn't mind having their names in the lime-light again or getting calls from up and coming d20 companies to produce materials. I would doubt many of them turned down the chance or the $$ that was offered them at the dawn of 3ed.

3.5 on the other hand did a lot of screwy things. By screwy I mean it really screwed the d20 companies who were making great gains because it stalled their steaming production lines to a grinding halt, it pulled many of the traditinal sacred cows of hardcore gaming out from under them (being monsters no longer included in the SRD) and did more than simply clarify or edit 3.0 rules as was claimed. It changed them. In some ways it changed them drastically and as Combat Kyle has mentioned, it did so to sell miniatures for a toy company. All true.

It also managed to sour relations between folks who warehoused and distributed the 3.0 small print books and those publisers of said material because it stuck the distributers with mountains of 3.0 stuff that was no "invalid". It put a TON of people out of business. Good folks. Gamers with an idea! People who hadn't had a snowball's chance in hell of getting "in" with WOTC any other way than to let their product be seen by the masses and adored or scorned as their quality of writing and art deemed it to be.

3.5 managed to alienate a lot of the "old school folks" who had initially embraced a 2nd chance to shine!

But we know all that don't we? Boo Yah! So what?

Thanks to Ryan Dancy... we have a working and LEGAL SRD. Thanks to the Trolls we have a C&C for the long forseeable future. All good! With the exception of some 3ed manuscripts that I have in a holding pattern thanks to these lame rumors of a 4ed game being "right around the corner" I could really care less what guys in WOTC R&D want to do with pet monsters of my youth. They can go the Lucas route and destroy people's childhoods and fond memories if people let them. It matters not to me because I have the ability to use the C&C rules set to create new adventures at a sharp pace. Also all good.

Sorry for any meandering there.

Case

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:26 am

*chuckles* Now ya know why Case bangs out modules so fast. He's a wordy chap.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:04 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
You have just 20 reasons? Why so few?

You should seek out the thread. 137 responses, and the vast majority of them from d20 fanboys.
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miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:46 am

WOTC is the dominant producer; however, with loyal supporters (like the people from this forum) growing by the day, I believe C&C stands a chance of making significant gains in the long run. They have my vote of confidence, and as a loyal supporter, my focus will be on their contributions to the industry from now on.
Brian Miller

"Rust monster article? What rust monster article? I don't recall any C&C rust monster article."
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:11 am

I think part of us being C&C fans means that we shouldn't stay away from d20 forums or people. Just patiently point out that all this frustration SO MANY of them are expressing would be cured by going to C&C.

Maybe True20 is good enough of a fix, I don't know yet, haven't bought it, but I intend to. Plus Caliphate Nights(?) looks too good to pass up for "City of Brass" lovers.

Granted I often feel like the "irritating" dog that is tolerated and patted on the head and told to go lay down, but I am stubborn.

Plus I think C&C deserves my efforts. Not the Trolls, but the game itself. I still feel giddy when I think about how awesome the SIEGE engine is and how much better the game is because of it. I love running a game where the story is center stage instead of constantly interrupted by rules consultations.

In fact, I hardly know, for sure, what a lot of rules in C&C are. The system works so well we never feel the need to look anything up, except spells.

So I continue to mention on ENWorld and the Necromancer boards, and every once in great while the WOTC boards, how much fun C&C has brought back to my gaming experience.

This is why I asked for everyones input on the "Why C&C?" document I am gelling together. I think a "testimonial" type presentation will have more impact on people who read it. IT is easy to discaount one persons voice, but when they are told it represents the voices of 23 DM's and over a hundred players, I hope they will seriously consider, or reconsider, giving C&C a fair try.

I want to get it done so those who are going to GenCon will want to hopefully print out a bunch and hand them out. If I end up going I'll be handing them out, the short periods of time I won't be at the Ram.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:12 pm

I had an embolism on the DF boards regarding this topic, so I will not revisit that, but the developmental Rust Monster article is an early response of things that are to come, IMO.

Case is right, really we shouldn'be be afraid of a single article, and especially not an online article, but the article is difficult to handle nonetheless.

I think the development of the rust monster signals yet another shift in modern roleplaying development. With WOTC being THE market to promote and distribute the most visable products, they drive the fantasy roleplaying market to a certain degree. This article proves that roleplaying is moving away from the traditional sense to a more point-click-result mechanic, i.e. video game like roleplaying.

The way C&Cers and oldschool D&Ders play the game is really disappearing, and in under 40 years. In another 40-50 years there will be no more "grognards," or "oldschoolers" anymore. And I think that is a shame. As time presses on, there is no doubt in my mind that things change. Time changes eveything, but in this case the development of modern fantasy roleplaying is turning away from a sense of imagination to a data-set of numbers with random outcomes... and with little imagination. To me, that spells L-A-Z-Y.

............................................Omote

FPQ
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Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:52 pm

The thing that made my jaw drop was the statement about the WotC development team assuming that the DM heartlessly applied the rules, like a computer. Boy, does that explain a lot. The other one was the assertion that losing some equipment made the game "not fun."

(I got involved in late in the thread at EN World.)

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:26 pm

Omote wrote:
Case is right, really we shouldn'be be afraid of a single article, and especially not an online article, but the article is difficult to handle nonetheless.

*wry smile* Quite a few of us just think the article is really damn funny. Maintaining one's sense of humor is a veritable prerequisite in this industry.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:31 pm

Ooooh. I've been maintaining a sense of anger. Maybe I should try humor instead.
...................................................Omote

FPQ
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Bowbe · Post by **Bowbe** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:08 pm

Humor works
Speaking of losing items not being fun... I was running one of my upcoming adventures for my group... and there is an encounter with an undead creature triggered with a desintegrate trap.

Of course the stud barbarian dwarf who gets off on bashing things without thinking threw a massive blow into the critter... and we rolled the item save (failed) and damage to item based on 3.5 desintegrate rules and wump, no more +3 dwarven war-axe of deadly damage.

He spent the rest of the adventure having to use someone else's weapon that he did not have all the extra abilities in using. Yeah he was kinda at first but agreed that it was the style of his character to attack in such a manner and thus deserved what he got. The same IS true for PCs that go toe to toe with Rusty. Some folks forget that I guess.

Roll on!

Case

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:08 pm

For stupidity, nothing beats a NERF rust monster.

Made of spongy material, the NERF rust monster only takes 1 point of damage from edged weapons, and is impervious to blows from blunt weapons (the spongy material absorbs impact and bounces back as if untouched). Water absorbent, the creature is slowed by half when a bucket of water is poured on it (due to the added weight of the water). The NERF rust monster takes double damage from fire, though if filled with water, the damage is reduced to normal. If filled with water and frozen, the NERF rust monster will shred to pieces as the water within expands.

Any metal weapon touching the NERF rust monster rusts, no saving throw.

Can you see just how stupid those changes above are? The article is just as stupid. It's just not obvious in its stupidity.
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Mcrow · Post by **Mcrow** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:04 pm

I don't know if anyone else already said it but:

I highly doubt 4E (whenever it does come) will be have an Open License like 3.x did. WotC cut about 2-3 years out of their own release schedule by letting third party publishers do their thing. Now you look @ the books they release and you can tell they are really having a hard time finding original and useful concepts. I think they will make that mistake again.

That said the current OGL will still exist and shouldn't matter much for C&C.

miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:48 pm

Traveller wrote:
Made of spongy material, the NERF rust monster only takes 1 point of damage from edged weapons, and is impervious to blows from blunt weapons (the spongy material absorbs impact and bounces back as if untouched). Water absorbent, the creature is slowed by half when a bucket of water is poured on it (due to the added weight of the water). The NERF rust monster takes double damage from fire, though if filled with water, the damage is reduced to normal. If filled with water and frozen, the NERF rust monster will shred to pieces as the water within expands. Any metal weapon touching the NERF rust monster rusts, no saving throw.

If only there was an elemental plane of NERF to explain this critters's existance. Maybe a wizard made it as an automaton?

Pretty funny if you ask me.

Brian Miller
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:22 pm

You'd have to ask the boys at Wizards. They're the ones that created the Elemental Plane of NERF and infested it with their inferior constructs.

It's been rumored that the true NERF rust monster has been listed as an endangered species by the introduction of a new, much weaker breed with a lot of backing by humans wearing odd clothing, one hand holding strange rectangular boxes with a handle. Occasionally, green sheets of paper are passed amongst the humans, and suddenly another human, dressed in weird khaki-colored clothing, holding a long metal rod, appears and begins to track the NERF rust monster. Occasionally, a flash of light comes from one end of the rod, but the Nerf rust monster is unaffected.
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My small homage to E.G.G.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:24 pm

Ok...now I'm sitting here suffering from a highly entertaining visual about a new creature called...

The Nerf Bat!
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miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:37 am

I especially like the part about no saves on the magic items turning to rust. Even C&C backs off on that.

Brian Miller
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PeelSeel2 · Post by **PeelSeel2** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:01 pm

Thinking about it more, what is upsetting about the article, is not the fact they are reworking the Rust Monster for more balance. It is the direction they are coming from.

WOTC mindset: The most sales happen off from things that are player related, not DM related (thus the statement that it is not profitable to do adventures ). They are of the mind set that players drive the game, when the opposite is true. It is the GM that drives the game. They realize this, however, on some level, and that is why they have been trying to marganilize the DM's impact on the game by regulating his/her role to an arbitor of rules.

The DM's job is not about that, as we all know. The DM makes the players come back for more, makes it interesting. The DM's job is really 'Storytelling' that appeals to the various nature of all his/her players (hack and slash, roleplaying, problem solving, wealth, etc). The rules are but a vessel to these goals.

I guess what is upsetting, but GREAT for C&C, is that the stewards of this game cannot see the forest through the trees. The fourth edition will be a failure because of their lack of insight. The best legacy for legal house rules left behind by WOTC, and it's greatest legacy, the SRD. It makes possible C&C, Goodman games, and other publishers that will run the market as WOTC is screwing up theirs.
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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:44 pm

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
The other one was the assertion that losing some equipment made the game "not fun."

*snicker*

Ah, but it will teach them not to frag with the things, though I do admit that having your brand new +1 sword that you finally got your hands upon go up in rust DOES suck. The Rust Monster can be a great little way to liven up things, when its applied properly. Having one run around in a dungeon full of armed Orcs, with its own foundry and smithy, but happens to just run into the PCs, is not necessarily good. Judicious use of 'gear breakers' is one thing. Being a jackarse about it is another.

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:45 pm

I think that it's not only unfair to say that WotC staff aren't gamers, but also simply untrue. Wizards just supports a different style of play that most of us don't appreciate, that's all. TSR, after all, not WotC, is still the proud holder of the "All-Time Vindictively Litigious Arsewipe of the Gaming Industry" title.

I just find it a little depressing when we seem to so enjoy tearing our hobby apart from the inside.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:49 pm

That tearing has been going on since the first change of editions, you just hear more of the tearing taking place because of the internet.

ZeornWarlock · Post by **ZeornWarlock** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:29 pm

Keolander wrote:
*snicker*

Ah, but it will teach them not to frag with the things, though I do admit that having your brand new +1 sword that you finally got your hands upon go up in rust DOES suck. The Rust Monster can be a great little way to liven up things, when its applied properly. Having one run around in a dungeon full of armed Orcs, with its own foundry and smithy, but happens to just run into the PCs, is not necessarily good. Judicious use of 'gear breakers' is one thing. Being a jackarse about it is another.

A dungeon full of armed Orcs, with its own foundry and smithy would be in a bad position if a rust monster were around. The creature is like a double-edged sword.

Occasionally I get to be the player instead of the Game master. At one point my full plate fighter simply attracted the Rust Monster into a room with two huge Iron golems we possibly couldn't defeat by force alone. I had to sacrifice parts of my plate armor, but eck, that was a whole lot of fun! The tactic also gave me the Golems' XPs!
ZW.

Troll Lord Games

Godd and Bad News

Humor Works