ZeornWarlock wrote:
The creature is like a double-edged sword.
Not to sidetrack, but I have an interesting one to relate, as the Narrator instead of player:
Like I said, gear breakers can be good when used judiciously. In one of the Tales of Middle-Earth Campaign modules I ran at a Con for Decipher, there is a Hobbit Sorcerer (nevermind that Tolkien flatly stated Hobbits never learned magic) and to keep him from being turned into Filet of Halfling, I had him cast Blade-shattering on the Dwarf Noble's battle-axe before he could take a swing at him. I somehow made the Weariness Test (failed a previous one) to cast the spell. The player was a friend of mine (and was using a pregen anyway instead of a character brought to the table) but was incredibly miffed about it.
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I have very little doubt that this is a look at things to come. There are quite a few articles on the WOTC site that talk about how nice it would be, from a designers standpoint, to get rid of the some of the old things they don't care for. Heck, that was one of the main reasons Monte Cook created his Arcana Unearthed - it was what 3rd edition would have looked like had he been in charge.
From what I've gathered, 4th edition will be something akin to a miniatures skirmish game with elements of role-playing, with many elements of the old game removed.
Luckily the folks on this board don't have to care - we have a game we love.
I can agree with that assessment of it. I also think that D&D miniatires is a model for a 4e which completly removes the DM. Remember this is a society that sees the DM as a stumbling block and has debated if Dungeon Master is a sensitive or politically correct term. They have also been alluding that the Rangers favored enemy ability is racist and other oddities.
I think 4e will be so far removed from what we know and love we won't recognize it anymore except some names. Even at that though they can't kill the OGL and SRD nor will they kill C&C so we're safe.
The part that interests me is how many other publishers will continue on with any 3e or SRD based things.
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AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06
You know, if 4E does go back to a Chainmail-like system, that might actually be very good. Hmmm... thinking of that, making it more like a wargame, like its roots... actually makes me hope it is!
serleran wrote:
You know, if 4E does go back to a Chainmail-like system, that might actually be very good. Hmmm... thinking of that, making it more like a wargame, like its roots... actually makes me hope it is!
Yeah but are you gonna pay $45 per mini, $50 for the first chapter and $30 for the official WOTC dice to play it?
Speaking of Chainmail I'd like to see it reprinted. I've been having poor luck on ebay finding a copy.
But a Chainmail like game would be nice (hint hint Trolls)!
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AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06
No, I wouldn't pay that much for a piece of plastic, especially one without a good paint job (or so I hear... I've only seen three WotC minis, so I don't know.) Anyway, the point is... it'd be a step in the right direction. Of course, they'd milk it with the whole "collectibility" thing, or, as it was known in Magic: he who spends more "wins." Of course, if they try to go that way, they've got Warhammer to contend with. I'm thinking that's a beast that isn't easy to knock down.
D&D Minis is quite a lucrative business if you tend to be lucky with booster pulls. I just sold a Drizzt for $90US! But that also has the reverse effect in that, if you want a particular mini, you have to be prepared to trade heavily for it or pay through the nose.
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This is one reason I wish someone would put up a cheap easy to play mini's game. They look good but I don't want to spend hundreds of bucks to get started or need to have a converted basement to have a decent battle.
I tried heroscape but the mixing of modern and fantasy mini's turned me off buying anymore. what am I going to do with a buch of cybergnats I'll never use?
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AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06
Julian Grimm wrote:
This is one reason I wish someone would put up a cheap easy to play mini's game. They look good but I don't want to spend hundreds of bucks to get started or need to have a converted basement to have a decent battle.
I tried heroscape but the mixing of modern and fantasy mini's turned me off buying anymore. what am I going to do with a buch of cybergnats I'll never use?
You will never find a cheap minis game. The cost of production is way too high to be "cheap".
Bahamut wrote:
You will never find a cheap minis game. The cost of production is way too high to be "cheap".
Bah!
I was buying Ral Partha minis for $.99 each back in the day. "Minis game" my shiny metal butt, unless you're talking about 15mm Napoleonics or GDW Panzers. These newfangled "collectable miniatures" games, with mass-produced minis painted in the prisons of China, are just a scam to separate folks from their money.
Well if 4E goes the way of a minis game it will be perfect for those nights when one or more players can;t make it so we hold off on the campaign. Good stuff for one night only gaming sessions.
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Bahamut wrote:
You will never find a cheap minis game. The cost of production is way too high to be "cheap".
I'd like to see someone release a plastic line of fantasy type mini's that could be used along with some miniature warfare rules like chainmail. Even if they were like those green army men I would be happy. As it stands I don't have the access or the funds to keep up a pewter game.
I have gotten some paper ones off the net to use for gaming but they are not that varied.
Edit:
I want something to break into it with and see if I like it without spending a small fortune.
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AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06
On a more serious note ... it is ironic that even yesterday I got some major scoops about the future of D&D. It is sounding like some of our most paranoid fears are in fact in the works.
-4E already in the works? Check.
-Even more miniatures-centric? Check.
-Much smaller bundles of game info, packaged and sold separately? Check.
-A plan to possibly sell off RPGs entirely? Check. (Apparently only miniatures and Magic are making any money for WotC).
Unfortunately I can't go into how I got the info or who gave it to me. And I don't think even WotC knows when they're going to announce anything. I got the impression that timing such an announcement with GenCon was no longer seen as optimal or necessary. But please take all as unsubstantiated speculation ... as usual!
Hmmm. Interesting but I have the requisit salt shaker for 4e stuff. However of they sell out of RPGs would that mean D&D would be on the auction block or killed off?
Either way I smell opportunity if this is true. Someone with a better grasp on D&D could buy it and remake it closer to the older versions or games like C&C could fill the niche left by D&D's demise as an RPG.
This could be interesting if it is true...
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AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06
Wow I didn't know that they even sold this as a pdf...now where's the wife's debit card....
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AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06
Glad I could be of service in the pilfering of the missus' bank account!
Check out the other stuff too. They have plenty of basic D&D and AD&D modules. Its a treasure trove for the C&C gamer. Some of the scans arent the best, but considering when it was printed, its great to have them in electronic format.
And to remain on topic: now that it is an official rumor leaked through Dragon/Dungeon magazine, it's safe to assume there will be a 4th ed -- relatively speaking -- soon. Of course, as is the case with writers and publishers, how soon is anyone's guess.
Someone already mentioned that the OGL and SRD will long live past 3rd ed, and I agree. Whether WotC / Hasbro felt the boom or not, the RPG community and industry certainly did. Just like Troll Lord can make a business off the old school D&D, other companies can make theirs through 3.x, and they'll have a large installed fan base. Without official WotC 3.x products competing for shelf space, they'll probably do alright and the hobby will continue: with WotC or without.
BeZurKur wrote:
And to remain on topic: now that it is an official rumor leaked through Dragon/Dungeon magazine, it's safe to assume there will be a 4th ed -- relatively speaking -- soon. Of course, as is the case with writers and publishers, how soon is anyone's guess.
Is Eric working for Piazo/Dragon/Dungeon now? Last article listing I have for him is back in a 1994 issue of Dragon Magazine, which would put it in TSR days would it not?
He had the "unnoficial list" of rumors pre 3ed, and EN world is named after him
Eric Noah world...
Which is where this newest "leak" was sopped up from.
Eric is a cool guy who knows a lot of people. His info has typically been 60/40 so better than the average joe gamer.
Be that as it may, they can bring on the 4e if they want. Can't hurt the sales of C&C as the crossover multi genre multi style game formula that works!
Hopefully this inane (and not very new) rumor sells a crap pile of books for the trolls! hahah
Bowbe wrote:
Is Eric working for Piazo/Dragon/Dungeon now? Last article listing I have for him is back in a 1994 issue of Dragon Magazine, which would put it in TSR days would it not?
Thanks for that. You are right to correct me. I didn't care to check my sources, which can only lead to more rumor-mongering.
As others have said, it would take a major reversal of direction for me to lay out cash for the game. I'm not short of cash to lay out, I'm just not stupid.
I don't mind businessmen making the business decisions, it's just unfortunate that my tastes do not match the style of game they wish to make. Like any other product, I don't have to buy it if, IMO, it sucks.
Thankfully, we have options. That makes me happy.
Don.
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The rumor has been debunked by a WotC official and Eric has put in his thread where he announced the rumor the items stating that it is not true.
There IS speculation that WotC put out a feeler rumor to see fan reaction of what would happen if they DID put out a 4e. From the reactions I saw...it wasn't overly good. Hence even if it were true, it is possible they either decided that it was bad timing and not to go forward with it, OR, they are going forward with it, but not quite announcing it yet.
From what I've gathered from the REAL sources of info on their sales (I've pointed it out for months and even some years on their real financial status but always had it denied by their PR folks on their boards...you don't fire people when you just had the "best year" ever as their PR put it...) their RPG line sales are doing REALLY poorly currently, not as bad as some would want, but nothing in comparison to 2001 or even 2003 from what I gather (RPG line sales DOES NOT include miniatures and such...just rulebooks).
From a sales standpoint, I'd say putting out a 4e or selling it actually makes a whole lot of sense monetarily speaking...though perhaps they have some new tricks up their sleeves to boost sales. I suppose they could keep relying on miniatures to prop them up...
However, it wouldn't surprise me if this actually wasn't a false rumor, but a feeler rumor.
However, officially, the rumor has been debunked concerning 4e...just so you guys know.
Just because WOTC said it, doesn't make it so. After they screwed up and left the Halfling Outrider's base attack out of "Sword and Fist," they claimed that the class wasn't supposed to have a base attack, rather than admit they goofed. So, imo, just because they officially claim there is no 4e in the works does not make it so.
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You face 99 beserkers, 99 beserkers, 99 beserkers, and 99 beserkers.
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Well, according to someone I trust, who knows a director at WOTC, 4E isn't even in the works yet.
Who is it that I trust? A co-owner of my favorite 3E adventure selling company. He says the director at WOTC is one of his best friends as well.
So we have at least two years before 4E will even be announced. Assuming friends are still trust worthy.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
People assume that D&D is all WOTC has to offer and forget their administration of a good dozen other game lines. While their bread and butter happens to be Miniatures games and CCC games, even if their "sales are down" in the CCC market they still OWN that market.
Since they have the copywright to CCC games, every other company who makes a CCC game has to pay them for the privlidge of using the concept! Wild huh? So if WOTC produced CCC games are down, what does that say about every other company on the CCC bandwagon? Obviously they are doing even worse... and in most cases still have to pay a royalty to WOTC.
The Axis and Allies miniatures are cool, though from what I understand most people who buy those miniatures use them in a different games, like flames of war which have arguably better rules. Sorta like people who buy D&D mini's and play C&C, True20 or any other FRPG.
Despite WOTC bashing that goes on here there and everywhere, they aren't a horrible company. Sure they do boneheaded things, but what corporation doesnt? What small imprints dont drop everything to try and chase the "next big trend" in RPGs only to have it sting them in the ass? Answer: None of them. Everyone is guilty of that, despite going in, knowing that gamers are a very fickle and choosy market!
D&D and D&D mini's are only a part of their entire franchise.
overall, what WOTC does or does not do, have no impact on my gaming. The games I have settled on buying and supporting are Castles&Crusades, GURPS (at least for books that I find cool), Warhammer roleplay, and, possibly Runequest, depending on what the new book does, that 3e didn't.
Other than that, my shelves are brimming with fun old games.
