Troll Lord Games

First the Good News:

I sent an email to Steve Goodman at Goodman games inquiring:

1) did they plan more C&C modules and his response is all future Dungeon Crawl Classics modules should have an appendix with C&C conversion notes in it. Awesome.

2) are they going to re-release the out of pring Dungeon Crawl Classic modules. Though not expecially for C&C - easily convertable. THey hope to re-release those modules but....[ and the bad news is....]...

Now the Bad News...

Steve Goodman stated that there was a rummor that Wizards plans to announce Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition at Gen Con this year!!! Arrgh!!! the result would be that the out of print DCC modules would staty out of print.

tcabril wrote:
Steve Goodman stated that there was a rummor that Wizards plans to announce Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition at Gen Con this year!!! Arrgh!!! the result would be that the out of print DCC modules would staty out of print.

I thought it's not coming out till 2011. Check this link...
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp? ... x20010401a

tcabril wrote:
Steve Goodman stated that there was a rummor that Wizards plans to announce Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition at Gen Con this year!!!

I never said that the rumor was true but Mr. Goodman seemed to be taking it seriously.

I hope its just a rumor...

Jynx: That link was originally posted on April 1st (04 or 05 if I remember right) so it was a joke.

Otherwise, the "rumor" of 4th edition has been around for about 2 years. It will be coming... but when is anyone's guess. Those on the inside admit there are no official discussions of it, but, then that might be because they don't want to circulate the truth.

In any event, unless 4th edition does a complete reversal of playing style and rules heaviness, I'll just skip it completely, which will be sad, since that will be the first time in all D&Ds history I quit playing.

There is no doubt in my mind that the mechanics of 4th edition are well into the developmental stage, however I would think that Wizards wouldn't annouce 4th edition UNTIL the 4th ed book was nearing completion.

My bet is that a true 4th edition is still some time away.

.......................................Omote

FPQ
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tcabril wrote:
... the result would be that the out of print DCC modules would staty out of print.

Of course the out of print DCC's are available as pdf's!
Personally, I prefer the pdf format for modules, since I like to mark them up quite a bit.
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Akrasia wrote:
Of course the out of print DCC's are available as pdf's!

Even the convention-only specials?
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Trampas Whiteman
---DragonHelm--->
Dragonlance Nexus

I dunno, such would follow the current merchandising strategy WizBro is running on....

They might announce 4E before its fully developed in order to try to recreate the hype and anticipation of 3E. It won't succeed, but remember that these are businessmen making the decisions, not game designers.

Or...

They might want to keep it quiet so they can spring it out like they did 3.5 and leave a LOT of third party D20 publishers scrambling in desperation to redo product.

Either way, it'll be interesting to see what happens at GenCon.
On a side note, does anyone know how successful the Red Box 3.5 "Basic" set did after its big announcement a year or two ago? I'm not interested in the game, but I'm curious as to its success (or lack therof).
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Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

Jynx wrote:
I thought it's not coming out till 2011. Check this link...
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp? ... x20010401a

"Wizards of the Coast announced today that it would begin the "Countdown to Fourth Edition," which is due out April 1, 2011"

The news link was put out on April 1st and the release date is April 1st...Hmmm

"Sources say that the new edition will use the revolutionary d30 system, but this is, as yet, unconfirmed"

d30... Hmmm
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When 4E is released, it wont matter much, at least to me. As Sieg stated WotC is run by business men, not gamers, and I don't see business men putting out anything that compares to C&C. There will be lots of hype and pretty books and mass marketing, but in the end all the smoke and mirrors will do little to hide the fact that the best games are done by gamers.
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Never throw rocks at a man with a Vorpal Sword!

tcabril wrote:
First the Good News:

I sent an email to Steve Goodman at Goodman games inquiring:

1) did they plan more C&C modules and his response is all future Dungeon Crawl Classics modules should have an appendix with C&C conversion notes in it. Awesome.

2) are they going to re-release the out of pring Dungeon Crawl Classic modules. Though not expecially for C&C - easily convertable. THey hope to re-release those modules but....[ and the bad news is....]...

Now the Bad News...

Steve Goodman stated that there was a rummor that Wizards plans to announce Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition at Gen Con this year!!! Arrgh!!! the result would be that the out of print DCC modules would staty out of print.

Nice to hear the conversions will already be done. I wonder if this includes those being released in the boxed campaign setting?
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Never throw rocks at a man with a Vorpal Sword!

sieg wrote:
On a side note, does anyone know how successful the Red Box 3.5 "Basic" set did after its big announcement a year or two ago? I'm not interested in the game, but I'm curious as to its success (or lack therof).

Not sure, but you can pick them up brand new for practically nothing online, and I've seen it on clearance at Toys R Us and Target in the past. Given how much all that plastic, glossy paper, color pictures, and all that other pretty and distracting stuff, must have cost, I can't imagine the it had the impact they would have liked.

Maliki wrote:
When 4E is released, it wont matter much, at least to me. As Sieg stated WotC is run by business men, not gamers, and I don't see business men putting out anything that compares to C&C. There will be lots of hype and pretty books and mass marketing, but in the end all the smoke and mirrors will do little to hide the fact that the best games are done by gamers.

Well said, well said. Long live the Troll Lords!

I could care less if 4e, 5e or 6e comes out this year. If WOTC doesn't take D&D back to a system that makes sense I won't be buying.

C&C is also my system of choice and since 4e wouldn't effect the C&C system I'm not to worried about anything that wizborg releases since they can't kill off the OGL.
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Maliki wrote:
As Sieg stated WotC is run by business men, not gamers, and I don't see business men putting out anything that compares to C&C. There will be lots of hype and pretty books and mass marketing, but in the end all the smoke and mirrors will do little to hide the fact that the best games are done by gamers.

I couldn't agree more, other than to perhaps amend "businessmen" to read "lawyers".

Some folks say that us C&C'ers are somewhat elitist. Well, frankly, I agree. I take pride in the fact that I play a system that is built to support role-playing rather than power-gaming. I look down on people who think that gaming is more about accumulating stuff, and getting more and more powers and special abilities, and magic items, and being able to clean out a dungeon single-handedly by brute force, and that monsters are "pretty little packages of XP's".

I am thrilled to be part of a game that presupposes that the game is about taking on a particular personality, and that the GM and players are collaborating together to make a story, rather than taking the view that the GM is the enemy of the players.

Focus groups, PowerPoint presentations, and meetings with the accountant staff and the advertising firm don't make good games. Gamers make good games.

When the legal staff is a regular part of the design process... you just gotta shake your head in wonder.

Thulcondar

Thulcondar wrote:
I couldn't agree more, other than to perhaps amend "businessmen" to read "lawyers".

Some folks say that us C&C'ers are somewhat elitist. Well, frankly, I agree. I take pride in the fact that I play a system that is built to support role-playing rather than power-gaming. I look down on people who think that gaming is more about accumulating stuff, and getting more and more powers and special abilities, and magic items, and being able to clean out a dungeon single-handedly by brute force, and that monsters are "pretty little packages of XP's".

I am thrilled to be part of a game that presupposes that the game is about taking on a particular personality, and that the GM and players are collaborating together to make a story, rather than taking the view that the GM is the enemy of the players.

Focus groups, PowerPoint presentations, and meetings with the accountant staff and the advertising firm don't make good games. Gamers make good games.

When the legal staff is a regular part of the design process... you just gotta shake your head in wonder.

Thulcondar

Tell me about it! Just look at their new take on the rust monster. Designers are whining about the lost of gear simply stating that without gear in D&D, the player is a big zero! I guess wits and role-play doesn't matter much right? Guys with shinny cars get the girls, guys with shinny swords get the XP!
ZW.

When 4th edition comes...should wizards abandone the d20 system, I wonder how that would effect the Open Gaming License?

(I think it legally can't be revoked, but always suspected Wizards might try such a thing once other companies thrived, despite the legal wording, which would mean pulling the products off the shelves for any companies using the OGL). TSR/WOTC has some real shrewd lawyers and they've used it to their business advantage multiple times in the past.

Brian Miller

"I'm not paranoid. People just say I am behind my back."
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"The adventure continues"

miller6 wrote:
When 4th edition comes...should wizards abandone the d20 system, I wonder how that would effect the Open Gaming License?

Not at all.

The Genie is out of the bottle, there is no putting it back. 8)
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Peter Bradley

Maliki wrote:
As Sieg stated WotC is run by business men, not gamers, and I don't see business men putting out anything that compares to C&C. There will be lots of hype and pretty books and mass marketing, but in the end all the smoke and mirrors will do little to hide the fact that the best games are done by gamers.

Back in the early 90's, TSR started requiring a college degree for employment. That stopped me from getting a job I'd worked very hard to earn (doing volunteer work, coordinating and GMing conventions, writing articles, etc.)

Now I have a masters degree so I can't really complain, except to say that there's a lot of great gamers who'd make great RPG writers being overlooked by WOTC for the same reason.

Brian Miller

"It's the quality of the work that matters...not who wrote it."
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"The adventure continues"

gideon_thorne wrote:
Not at all.

The Genie is out of the bottle, there is no putting it back. 8)

Glad...no friggin' thrilled to hear it!!!

Brian Miller
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"The adventure continues"

Thulcondar wrote:
I take pride in the fact that I play a system that is built to support role-playing rather than power-gaming. I look down on people who think that gaming is more about accumulating stuff, and getting more and more powers and special abilities, and magic items, and being able to clean out a dungeon single-handedly by brute force, and that monsters are "pretty little packages of XP's".

ZeornWarlock wrote:
I guess wits and role-play doesn't matter much right? Guys with shinny cars get the girls, guys with shinny swords get the XP!
ZW.

Okay, you brought out the cleric in me so I'll preach about role-playing in support of the statements made above. Most of you already know this, but for those that don't who visit this forum here's my arguement in favor of role-playing...

I've been an outspoken advocate of role-playing for 25 years because that's what it takes to be a great RPG gamer, a fact proven time after time at every table at every convention and at every table in every home with at least one role-player.

Where's my proof? I was a Gen Con and Winter Fantasy coordinator. I supervised GMs and saw all the GM and player scores and helped enter scores in the gamer database at TSR. The best GM scores always went to the role-playing judges. The best player scores always went to the role-playing players.

Similarly, the prefered GMs in home games (where a role-player GM is available) are always role-players and the most fun players in home games (where a role-player is available) are always role-players as shown by the compliments from other players and requests for that role-player to come back for the next session.

Are role-players the majority? No. Not by far. Are role-players the best gamers? Yes, without a doubt, a fact which is self-evident in any RPG session.

Non-role-players would argue that the most common type of gamer indicates the proper way to play the game. Wrong answer. The most common skill level in any game is always the average player. Fewer are truly great. Fewer are truly bad. It's called a "normal curve". Introduce a "learning curve" to that theory using total time as an RPG gamer plotted versus skill (measured by tournament scores rather than rate of knowledge absorption) and nothing changes except to note that most players quit playing at an average skill level.

For those who think I'm wrong, sit at my table and I'll make you a believer. If not, then at least I tried to improve the aggregate skill level in the overall gaming community.

In short, it's not wise to knock a role-player OR THEY'RE C&C GAME unless you can prove your assertion by besting them in play in any tournament or any home game, anywhere on the planet.

Brian Miller

"Bring it on power-gamers (insert angry androsphinx roar)."
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Unless of course the business men get smart and hire gamers, or can you be both a business man and a gamer like the trolls
I am not worried about a 4th edition any more then I got excited to hear mongoose is reading runequest, on of my favorite systems, I am getting to old to see what the next generation is going to do with what once great and going to spend my time on what is currently great like C&C and LA

ken

Maliki wrote:
When 4E is released, it wont matter much, at least to me. As Sieg stated WotC is run by business men, not gamers, and I don't see business men putting out anything that compares to C&C. There will be lots of hype and pretty books and mass marketing, but in the end all the smoke and mirrors will do little to hide the fact that the best games are done by gamers.

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You know, that's what endears me to the C&C community. The focus is on role-playing and adventure. Compare that to the d20 community where a lot of focus seems to be on whether things are "balanced." I have to wonder if people actually buy a pair of scales and weigh these things.

Don't dare mention Rule Zero in such a crowd! They will simply claim that you are too lazy to learn the rules.
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---DragonHelm--->
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Not only am I too lazy I don't have enough decades left to learn all the rules in the 3E books, let alone a 4th edition.

I've kind of been thinking about this for a few months now. I still play 3E, because that is what my kids are comfortable DMing. Strangely they are more comfortable with all the rules spelling everything out for them rather than DMing C&C and making judgement calls. They say once they get confident in their abilities then they will move to C&C as well. I'm not sure if that is true or just a darn good excuse to keep playing/DMing 3E rather than the game system "Dad" is so in love with.

Anyways, back to my original intended point. When 4E does come I am definitely going to stay behind. Whether my kids really like C&C or not, I do. It is the simplest system I have ever seen. Yes, there is a lot of pages to the "rule book", but most of that is about things other than the mechanic. The SIEGE engine is simply awesome in my opinion.

I haven't played any RPG that is as simple or simpler. Now I have by no means played every RPG out there, maybe two to three dozen various games. Simply, C&C is the system I have been looking/waiting for since about 1988. That is when I realized I wanted a simple system that is easy to learn but can handle adjudicating any conceivable gaming situation or scenario.

As you all know C&C is that system. I have found my perfect system. I definitely wish every gamer in the world agreed with me/us, but I just tell myself they keep playing the old or new system that is a combination of various "problems" while I play a system that has returned the "pleasure" of DMing and gaming to me. Now C&C is not problem free. Since the mechanic around which it is built is so perfect, though, I have been finding it very easy to fix what problems I have had with C&C, which haven't been many. So few I really haven't counted.

I assume you all at the very least "mostly" agree me since you have all set down your "old" system for this one. I also know/believe, that like me that you would play any of the old systems as long as you also knew you would have fun with the group using it.

So it isn't like any of us "hate" our old systems, its just that we found something that works better. I don't hate 3e or 2e, I just found the perfect system for me. I hope we all have.

I was behind you right up until the very end.

Actually, I disliked 3rd edition before I ever heard about C&C which is why I played 1st edition mixed with 2nd edition instead.

Brian Miller
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I didn't hate 3E...until the Rust Monster article!

I don't hate any edition,just some I prefer some over others
ken
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Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics

Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

Slice N Dice: Game and Pizza Parlour

WWBYD What would Brigham Young do ?
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html

*chuckles* It's not within me to hate a collection of text, numbers, and rules, which is all any game system really is.

Do I prefer a given design over another? Yes. Certainly.

Thing is, my focus shifted on the types of systems I used to enjoy. I was big into Champions for the longest time, and other, similar, deceptively complex systems really appealed to me. During that time something like 3rd edition D&D would have really appealed to me simply cause I liked to fiddle with numbers.

These days, due to a developed interest in fiction writing, I prefer interpretive abstract systems which both C&C, and Lejendary Adventure fall into.

Both of which do a lot with a little when one looks outside the box a bit.

In the end though, they are all games, and none of these games matter worth a whit unless you have the right people playing in them. After all what can beat the greatest social activity in the world? Towit a group of pals creating an imaginary world together. Its all the best aspects of sitting round a camp fire and telling tall tales, which goes back into antiquity as one of the more popular and long standing social actvities.

I feel any system that faciltiates this has done its job. ^_^
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Peter Bradley

There are definitely a lot of systems that do that.

For me my favorite "other" systems for other genre is Shadowrun and Mutants and Masterminds 2E (Actually have my name in the playtest credits on that one). I would have used to say Traveller, but you may remember one of the things I liked about the SIEGE engine is how easily I adapted the skill system of Traveller to a d20 scale and then to SIEGE. So the Traveller universe is my favorite pure science type game.

For oriental flavor D&D nothing beats L5R in my experience. IF there ever was a system developed to enhance the "flavor" of a setting L5R is it.

I am not in the hate 3E crowd. I really liked 3E, I played it with a bunch of guys in the Marines and to date was the best gaming group I've ever been in. 3E was extenively playtested and created by gamers not businessmen, the 3E core rules are still a great system IMO. What went wrong was 3.5E this is when those grubby suits from Hasbro ruined everything. 3.5 is nothing more than a vessel to sell WoTC D&D minis.

Anyway, C&C is my game of choice, Crusade on!
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The beginnings of my homebrew campaign world and info for my play by chat game:
http://kbdekker.googlepages.com/home