OSRIC

Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:08 pm

I always thought Max Von Sydow's role in Conan the Barbarian was well played. I find myself still coming back to his speech about the throne room becoming a prison.

I also am kinda glad that they cut the scene of his death, so that in the extended version his daughter is returned to him.

Seriously, I've never played or even seen OSRIC. But it seems to generate more vicious responses than C&C does in certain messageboards.

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:37 pm

OSRIC, eh?

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:10 pm

OSRIC... is it a delicious new ice cream treat? Mmm, taste the oldness.

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:35 pm

Omote wrote:
OSRIC... is it a delicious new ice cream treat? Mmm, taste the oldness.

-O

Is it a flightless bird without T & H? It makes so many people emu-tional!
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:59 pm

Zudrak wrote:
Is it a flightless bird without T & H? It makes so many people emu-tional!

Some dude that caused a ruckus between Hamlet and Laertes IIRC? A bit part.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:16 pm

Don't go down this road, guys! I know it's all in jest and good nature, but some don't (or won't) take it that way!!
_________________
Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!

Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
http://jimhollowayart.com/id5.html

Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:21 pm

Deogolf wrote:
Don't go down this road, guys! I know it's all in jest and good nature, but some don't (or won't) take it that way!!

Understood. I meant no harm (er, fowl). I just find fights over games and "what edition is best?" sorts of arguments should be left where they belong -- at recess and on the playground.

*Puts puns away for another thread*
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:27 pm

Deogolf wrote:
Don't go down this road, guys! I know it's all in jest and good nature, but some don't (or won't) take it that way!!

I know Shakespeare is banned in some places, but come on. Isn't that being a little over cautious?
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:30 pm

I'm just sayin'....
Dis ain't about Shakesspeare needer...
_________________
Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!

Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
http://jimhollowayart.com/id5.html

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:43 pm

Deogolf wrote:
Don't go down this road, guys! I know it's all in jest and good nature, but some don't (or won't) take it that way!!

ExcuuuuuuuUUUUUse me. I was just hungry and it sounded delcious. That's all.
Move along, nothing to see here.

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:50 pm

John is right guys. As much as we enjoy joking around here, as this is a touchy subject, lets keep comments refrained to calm and neutral.

Thanks,

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:06 pm

Troll Lord wrote:
John is right guys. As much as we enjoy joking around here, as this is a touchy subject, lets keep comments refrained to calm and neutral.

Thanks,

Steve

Yep, apologies from me. One too many libations and what I hoped was just some good natured joking, but for some of our newer forum members and others - I've expressed my support for OSRIC before and will do so again in this thread.

I think it's a great product and vehicle for module/book publishing for 1st edition gaming. I have an OSRIC module which is very well done, and will most likely purchase more material in the future.

My current AD&D 1E PBP game on DF, uses OSRIC as support material for our players.

I also support LL, Goblinoid Games, BFRPG etc. al. and think they - along with C&C are fantastic for the current and future world of RPGs.

I started with BD&D - found C&C which also led me back to AD&D and finally OD&D.

All great games, all will be around for our grandchildren!

_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:22 pm

I would like to pretty much repeat what Rhu said.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:30 pm

Yooow! Lots o replies!

serleran wrote:
IBL.

Nyah nyah.

You Cheeky guy you Serl!

gideon_thorne wrote:
Well... he does have work that he could be doing instead of opening of canned worms.

! Bllp! Just cuz Im waiting to hear back from Steve on the A&A MS, Fiff on Essential Places, Gary on sundries, etc. Oh, and PhD papers on Mahanian Naval doctrine. Plenty of time for a ruckus!

pactmaster wrote:
Having read the thread on Dragonsfoot and being a member of the Knights&Knaves forum as well I always wonder what all the scuffle is about. Sometimes we play C&C, sometimes OSRIC and sometimes Iron Gauntlets, it depends on who is running and what mood we want. It never makes sense when a battle rages over some game in a niche hobby. Play whatever game you like, enjoy that game, and let others play what they like and enjoy the fact that you get to sit down and play with a group of friends.

Well said. For those not familiar with the controversy:

1. C&C was blasted by certain persons for being Not Old School Enough upon publication.

2. 2. Some others went to the hard work and diligence to make OSRIC; which is a SRD-sorta online doc to allow third party publishers to make 1E modules and supplements freely with the umbrella of the OGL covering them. The legality of OSRIC has been in question, and while Wiz-bro sent a Cease and Desist regarding it theyve done nothing else. According to some lawyer friends this is a good sign but doesnt mean OSRIC is out of the wood yet; at least as far as US copyright is concerned. UK copyright is probably a lot more ironclad. NOTE: I dont claim to be a expert nor know all the details. This is just what Ive heard.

3. 3. Some of OSRICs more vocal supporters (NOT the creators of OSRIC, let me make that clear!) have accuse the pseudo Old School style publishers (TLG, K&C, Necro, etc.) of being anti-OSRIC and variously questioning its legality and bad mouthing it as a concerted strategy to stop OSRIC from being successful.

4. A. As part of this, there have been accusations that (as John said) OSRIC cant even be mentioned over here without either an auto delete of the word (i.e. like profanity) and/or lock.

This rather tongue-in-cheek post was started to prove this accusation wrong.
Basically, I like OSRIC and while Im not sure its out of the woods legally yet I hope it succeeds and am glad for another source of Old School stuff. But I DONT like TLG being accused of behavior that they havent done. So, on Dragonsfoot I posted asking that those making such accusations of TLG to please provide the evidence (via links or quotes) where any members of TLGs ownership had done such things. So far (I havent make it over to DF yet) Ive not seen any such thing.

Traveller wrote:
As for the game that shall not be named, its legality is questionable (in my opinion, flat out illegal), and any discussion of the game that shall not be named on these forums could be seen as endorsing said game that shall not be named, thus causing the Trolls legal issues of their own. Thus, discussion of the game that shall not be named is verboten.

Sorry Trav, but I have to disagree. Talking about something, or even suggesting that an OSRIC product works well with C&C can hardly be considered as legally supporting it. Otherwise, saying Smoking weed is good on the net could end up with someone going to jail. Like me, for the above! Uh-oh!

Troll Lord wrote:
John is right guys. As much as we enjoy joking around here, as this is a touchy subject, lets keep comments refrained to calm and neutral.

Thanks,

Steve

See! See! He posted! Its not locked! Its not edited to get OSRIC out of the post! See!!!!!

So there, naysayers!

Ok, now back to work. Honest!
Mike
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:52 pm

I am with Rhuvein and Treebore. As far as what is available with an 'Old School' feel goes, things are better than they have been in years.

Lambasting or attacking the legality or integrity of these games is of little value to the community and until a legal challenge is issued and a precedent set one way or another, it's fairly pointless to make claims about it.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

Dan Proctor · Post by **Dan Proctor** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:23 pm

sieg wrote:
The legality of OSRIC has been in question, and while Wiz-bro sent a Cease and Desist regarding it theyve done nothing else.

I think it's important to point out that this is a common misconception. Stuart Marshal has said a number of times (and I am privy to some other details as well) that he was contacted by WOTC, but at no time did they send him a C&D. Further, no one in any official capacity has accused him of doing anything illegal or against the terms of the OGL.

I just wanted to clarify that, because the common myth that this took place might reflect poorly on the creators of OSRIC. WOTC did not send them any sort of official C&D. Their communication was never taken to that level. I just thought that minor point deserved some clarification, and since Stuart has said so himself on other forums I don't think he'll mind that I bring that up here.

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:50 pm

Thanks for that correction! Hmmm. In fact that (IMO) leans even more credence to OSRIC being safe;. But IMO its still not reasonable to accuse RPG companies of being "anti OSRIC" or "bad mouthing" it if they don't want to pursue it as a publication vehicle.

In fact, I imagine the smaller the publisher the safer overall it would be to do it.
Just IMO, of course...

Mike
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:55 pm

Matthew wrote:
I am with Rhuvein and Treebore. As far as what is available with an 'Old School' feel goes, things are better than they have been in years.

Lambasting or attacking the legality or integrity of these games is of little value to the community and until a legal challenge is issued and a precedent set one way or another, it's fairly pointless to make claims about it.

True, but I'd also contend attacking companies simply because they've gotten conflicting legal advice and/or refuse to publish in the OSRIC venue is equally pointless and unhelpful.
You know what might help a lot of this? If the OSRIC authors could set up a website with scans of the letters of legal advice he's gotten from the lawyers as well as his correspondence with WOTC for public viewing. That way, anyone with questions or comments would have the data freely available at the click of a button!

IMO, that might help squelch a LOT of the rumor mill!

Mike
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:13 am

Then a clear statement NOT endorsing actions of the fanboys who proceeded to use character assassination and outright threats of physical violence would have been required at the time said actions occurred. Unfortunately for them, they closed the barn door after the horses got out. As far as I am concerned, the authors and associated staff are as guilty as those who performed these actions and allowed these actions to occur on their forums (i.e. Dragonsfoot) despite blatant violations of their own terms of service.

I would know. Some blowhard out there wanted to whack my knees because I brought things up to Hasbro in the first place. Granted, he was being an Internet tough guy, and we know exactly how tough they really are, but that does not excuse the acts committed. So, while it will not affect this forum in any manner whatsoever, I will now have to reevaluate whether to continue my participation in discussions here, and at the same time reevaluate whether my presence is required at all on any role playing forum at all.

*shakes my head*...I have more than a few people on this forum that I consider to be friends. It isn't about friendship, but about principles, and in principle, I am not sure I can continue on a board that could even contemplate serious discussion of the subject matter knowing that the fanboys would descend as they have in the past.

*tosses the chalk and walks away*
_________________
NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:30 am

I don't pay attention to people who get bent out of shape about games. I just play.

Besides, my impression was the arguments were personal, not about OSRIC itself. OSRIC was just the subject around which the arguments ensued.

If OSRIC was the legal land mine so many said it was we would have seen the bombs go off by now. I think enough has been published with out any legal repercussions to conclusively prove that the legalities are just fine.

Still, people still insist that the sky is falling on OSRIC. Meanwhile I buy what I consider to be the cool stuff.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Moorcrys · Post by **Moorcrys** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:49 am

I'm a fan of C&C, I've bought loads of C&C material, and I've bought some Osric products. I think there are a number of really talented people writing for both, and I love that old-school-type material is available and that people are using their talents and hard work to expand those resources. Good all-around I say.

My only disappointment has been with the system's (I think) main forums at the Alehouse, which I was lurking on for a while. A particular few people were excessively rude and unkind regarding C&C and a number of people involved with it. After the 3rd or 4th thread involving that stuff... yeesh, I stopped. It's hard for me to stomach it when people get worked up and personally vindictive over a niche within a niche within a niche hobby.

I've appreciated the relative quiet here regarding that kind of bashing, and I hope it continues.
_________________
----------------

Moorcrys

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:36 am

Moorcrys wrote:
I'm a fan of C&C, I've bought loads of C&C material, and I've bought some Osric products. I think there are a number of really talented people writing for both, and I love that old-school-type material is available and that people are using their talents and hard work to expand those resources. Good all-around I say.

My only disappointment has been with the system's (I think) main forums at the Alehouse, which I was lurking on for a while. A particular few people were excessively rude and unkind regarding C&C and a number of people involved with it. After the 3rd or 4th thread involving that stuff... yeesh, I stopped. It's hard for me to stomach it when people get worked up and personally vindictive over a niche within a niche within a niche hobby.

I've appreciated the relative quiet here regarding that kind of bashing, and I hope it continues.

yeah, I quit visiting the Ale House for much the same reason. A shame, several of the people seemed very like able.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:48 am

Treebore wrote:
yeah, I quit visiting the Ale House for much the same reason. A shame, several of the people seemed very like able.

And it should be pointed out there are people who are regulars there who post here, and indeed I saw recently at the Winter Dark Con, playing AD&D, OD&D and C&C. Hmmm.... methinks there really is room for all. I actually just spent time just browsing through some posts on other forums, and it does seem the "hate" and venom is concentrated around a small handful of individuals.

As I ended my post on the DF thread...

Maybe it's time to live and let live. C&C is alive and doing quite well, methinks, and those who love AD&D can rest assured it will never disappear either.
_________________
John "Sir Seskis" Wright

Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/

High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:11 am

sieg wrote:
True, but I'd also contend attacking companies simply because they've gotten conflicting legal advice and/or refuse to publish in the OSRIC venue is equally pointless and unhelpful.

Absolutely. Honestly, I don't know where or why these sorts of disagreements arise. There are only a few credible complaints I regularly hear about Castles & Crusades and they're all fairly minor as far as I'm concerned.

1) Editing and Proofreading - I have to admit, if I hadn't known beforehand to expect this, I would have been somewhat put off. On the other hand, I understand that Troll Lord Games are a small company and that they're doing their best to provide quaity material whilst at the same time remaining profitable.

2) Art - This is so subjective, it's almost pointless to complain about. On the other hand, some people just really cannot stand the style and that influences their opinion of Castles & Crusades.

3) The SIEGE System. At first sight this may seem like a huge problem for those who don't like it, and to be sure it's the most significant of the three issues, but I have found it to be something I can completely cut away from the game if I want to with very little in the way of complications.

The majority of the 'hate' seems to be built around the above complaints, but I believe the actual 'hate' itself to be mostly unrelated to them and a result of conflicts I am not privy to (having not been around when the battle lines seem to have been drawn). The whole OSRIC is actively opposed by Troll Lord Games seems to be untrue, so there's no current problem there. There's also 'the fans are too enthusiastic' argument, but I don't think that's something related to the actual game, nor does it bother me in the slightest for someone to sing the praises of a game they prefer to others (except when put in absolute terms).

sieg wrote:
You know what might help a lot of this? If the OSRIC authors could set up a website with scans of the letters of legal advice he's gotten from the lawyers as well as his correspondence with WOTC for public viewing. That way, anyone with questions or comments would have the data freely available at the click of a button!

IMO, that might help squelch a LOT of the rumor mill!

Maybe. I would imagine that if it was thought doing so would truly end the debate it would have already been done. To me, that sounds like an invitation for an army of arm chair lawyers to descend and play a game of internet rhetoric. As it is, people can pretty much ask any questions they have directly of Stuart and he will most likely answer them, especially if it is a publisher interested in using the OSRIC license (and at the end of the day, it only really matters to them).
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:26 am

Matthew wrote:
2) Art - This is so subjective, it's almost pointless to complain about. On the other hand, some people just really cannot stand the style and that influences their opinion of Castles & Crusades.

I should note, as a point of order, folks not liking my art doesn't bother me in the least.

Its when it descends to the level of "The art is gay, so the artist has to be as well" (paraphrased from various postings over the last 5 years) that one has to just sit back and roll ones eyes and wonder about the rather dubious source of such silliness.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:45 am

Bastards.

I haven't been to Dragonsfoot or The Alehouse in ages. Ages, I tells ya.

There. That's for making me go look.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:45 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
I should note, as a point of order, folks not liking my art doesn't bother me in the least.

Nor should it (unless, of course, the result is that nobody buys your art and you're trying to make a living as an artist ). For what it's worth I generally like it.

gideon_thorne wrote:
Its when it descends to the level of "The art is gay, so the artist has to be as well" (paraphrased from various postings over the last 5 years) that one has to just sit back and roll ones eyes and wonder about the rather dubious source of such silliness.

I wondered what that was all about. Any image in particular that provoked such a strange claim?
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:54 am

Treebore wrote:
I don't pay attention to people who get bent out of shape about games. I just play.

Besides, my impression was the arguments were personal, not about OSRIC itself. OSRIC was just the subject around which the arguments ensued.

If OSRIC was the legal land mine so many said it was we would have seen the bombs go off by now. I think enough has been published with out any legal repercussions to conclusively prove that the legalities are just fine.

Still, people still insist that the sky is falling on OSRIC. Meanwhile I buy what I consider to be the cool stuff.

I have nothing against the system and I support the creative efforts that have benefited from it (like third party adventure modules). To my understanding, there has been no legal challenge to the interpretation of law and precedence that enabled OSRIC to be created as it is right now. That doesn't mean their will never be one but I admit that is extremely unlikely at this time.

But I do have a question: Goodman Games put out two 1e adventures without a need to use OSRIC. If they can do it, while respecting the OGL, why can't others?

Just curious...

M
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:54 am

Traveller, I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way. IMO, discussing OSRIC product in a C&C context seems to be valid here (unless i'm told otherwise by the mods); just like saying Mayfair's Role-Aids is useful, Pied Pier is useful, etc. The first got sued by TSR over it, but to me that's between the companies. If OSRIC is illegal then its going to end up between WOTC and the OSRIC authors (and maybe the OSRIC publishers). Doesn't effect C&C fans or TLG any that I can discern.

Re:K&K,

Yeah, I like Jere and some of the guys over there...but its a perfect example of how a few bad apples can spoil the fun for a lot of people. But hey, I'm a "Traitor to 1E" so what do I know?
Re: OSRIC legal data,

Agreed, but the rumor mill could easily be squelched by such a move and I suspect a lot of publishers might hear the rumor mill and be dissuaded without even inquiring. I dont' know if this is true or not; just seems possible to me. Such would certify OSRIC's legal standing beyond a shadow of a doubt. At least tin the opinions of the pack of lawyers P&P talked to about OSRIC. I think he told me something along the lines of "more lawyers than the Nurenberg Trials"(!) That's a lot!
Re: Gideon "Gay",

What I find amusing Pete, is that these individuals seem to know absolutely what is "Gay" and what isn't? I wonder where their VAST knowledge comes from?
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:05 am

Matthew wrote:
Nor should it (unless, of course, the result is that nobody buys your art and you're trying to make a living as an artist ). For what it's worth I generally like it.

Hell, anyone who wants to make a real good living at art needs to go into Pin Up art. Everyone likes pin up art.

Quote:
I wondered what that was all about. Any image in particular that provoked such a strange claim?

Honestly mate, Ive got no idea. I've seen some crazy stuff in my time, but the way some folks get wrapped around various games, editions, and styles just blows my mind.

The whole business of "You MUST play this way, with these rules, with xyz art, from whatever era" is crazy. Some absurd terms get born from such things. Like C-tard, or 3tard or even now 4e tard and so forth.

TLG did its level best to make a game that lent itself to a variety of styles. Id say that succeeded very well, despite griping from all kinds of camps.

Personally, i don't get it. If I don't like a given thing, I don't give it a bunch of free advertising by talking about it publicly. Doesn't make any sense to do anything else.
As for the technical controls over editing and so forth. Well, it's very easy to talk about making a pristine product when one has unlimited time to deal with it. But in the real world of publishing mistakes happen because real deadlines occur. Comparatively, even to those who have professional editing staff, Id say TLG's mistakes are minor.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley