OSRIC

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:08 am

moriarty777 wrote:
But I do have a question: Goodman Games put out two 1e adventures without a need to use OSRIC. If they can do it, while respecting the OGL, why can't others?

Ah, well they can! Kenzer & Company were supporting AD&D before the OGL even came along. All that OSRIC provides is a measure of legal protection or, to put it another way, a method for publishing AD&D compatable material. The only legal risk you run when publishing and distributing for profit material intended for use with AD&D is that Wizards will take legal action against you. To my understanding, what OSRIC provides is a set of guidelines for how to do so legally (as far as it can be determined) and a license to use that method.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:24 am

Matthew wrote:
Ah, well they can! Kenzer & Company were supporting AD&D before the OGL even came along. All that OSRIC provides is a measure of legal protection or, to put it another way, a method for publishing AD&D compatable material. The only legal risk you run when publishing and distributing for profit material intended for use with AD&D is that Wizards will take legal action against you. To my understanding, what OSRIC provides is a set of guidelines for how to do so legally (as far as it can be determined) and a license to use that method.

You see, that's sort of what I'm getting at: both Goodman Games modules are considered 'Special 1E Editions' ... there is no mention of AD&D in them anywhere. Or any other content (as certain creatures or names) that are WOTC property for that matter. Other companies could follow the example set by Goodman Games and do the same thing without needing to use the OSRIC label.

Unless there is something else I'm missing. This isn't a slam against OSRIC -- I'm just trying to gain a better understanding!
Now reflecting further, I guess I do see the possible ease and convenience to do it under that label though. It might help avoid other potential pitfalls...

M
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:26 am

Matthew wrote:
Ah, well they can! Kenzer & Company were supporting AD&D before the OGL even came along.

Kenzer had a license to do so. Different kettle of fish entirely.
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Dan Proctor · Post by **Dan Proctor** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:35 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Kenzer had a license to do so. Different kettle of fish entirely.

Not back when they were doing their old 'zine.

Dan Proctor · Post by **Dan Proctor** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:37 am

moriarty777 wrote:
But I do have a question: Goodman Games put out two 1e adventures without a need to use OSRIC. If they can do it, while respecting the OGL, why can't others?

In order to answer that, you'll have to explain what you mean by "respecting the OGL."

Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:45 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Honestly mate, Ive got no idea. I've seen some crazy stuff in my time, but the way some folks get wrapped around various games, editions, and styles just blows my mind.

The whole business of "You MUST play this way, with these rules, with xyz art, from whatever era" is crazy. Some absurd terms get born from such things. Like C-tard, or 3tard or even now 4e tard and so forth.

The word is 4ron, you knave.
Btw, an old hobby of mine used to be making little plastic aeroplanes, and I still make the rounds of those forums occasionally. If you think these type of imbroglios and brouhahas are restricted to the RPG industry, you would be quite wrong.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:51 am

Dan Proctor wrote:
In order to answer that, you'll have to explain what you mean by "respecting the OGL."

Hehehe... got me there. You'll forgive me as I try to explain what I mean (or meant). I guess what I'm referring to is Product Identity as mentioned in the OGL. For example, if I wanted to publish an adventure module, I can't just go and put in a Beholder or a Mind Flayer in the adventure if I wanted to. I'd have to get special permission to do so from WOTC. A Goblin or an Orc on the other hand is a different story. I can't use "Melf's Acid Arrow" but that wouldn't stop me from using "Acid Arrow" as listed in the SRD.

I suppose that is essentially what I meant.

Thanks!

M
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:52 am

Harry Joy wrote:
The word is 4ron, you knave.
Btw, an old hobby of mine used to be making little plastic aeroplanes, and I still make the rounds of those forums occasionally. If you think these type of imbroglios and brouhahas are restricted to the RPG industry, you would be quite wrong.

*chuckles* I never said they were. I grew up around hobbyists of all sorts. Model makers included. Doesn't mean I don't think the level of obsession is just plain bizarre.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:53 am

Dan Proctor wrote:
Not back when they were doing their old 'zine.

"Back then" gentlemen's agreements were a fair sight more common.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:56 am

moriarty777 wrote:
But I do have a question: Goodman Games put out two 1e adventures without a need to use OSRIC. If they can do it, while respecting the OGL, why can't others?

Rob Kuntz doesn't seem to be having any problems either.
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seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:57 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* I never said they were. I grew up around hobbyists of all sorts. Model makers included. Doesn't mean I don't think the level of obsession is just plain bizarre.

Just had a flashing image of John Malkovich as the assassin in In the Line of Fire - he accused a fellower modeler of being a "traitor" and the guy bought a gun just in case he ever came back....

We don't have any former CIA wetboys hanging around this debate do we????

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Dan Proctor · Post by **Dan Proctor** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:14 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
"Back then" gentlemen's agreements were a fair sight more common.

Actually I think I saw one of the KenzerCo people post on RPGnet once mentioning how they got a number of C&Ds from TSR over the years, but they ignored them.

Dan Proctor · Post by **Dan Proctor** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:15 am

moriarty777 wrote:
Hehehe... got me there. You'll forgive me as I try to explain what I mean (or meant). I guess what I'm referring to is Product Identity as mentioned in the OGL. For example, if I wanted to publish an adventure module, I can't just go and put in a Beholder or a Mind Flayer in the adventure if I wanted to. I'd have to get special permission to do so from WOTC. A Goblin or an Orc on the other hand is a different story. I can't use "Melf's Acid Arrow" but that wouldn't stop me from using "Acid Arrow" as listed in the SRD.

I suppose that is essentially what I meant.

Thanks!

M

Well, by that definition, I don't see how OSRIC is an offender. As far as I've seen, no OSRIC publisher has used any material designated product identity.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:46 am

Sadly I did take part in some of the nastiness which is something I am ashamed of. However better sense has taken over and I am pretty neutral on OSRIC lately. I just don't see why people are still getting bent out of shape over this still. Whether you like it or not the big 'O' is a fact of life as is Labrynth Lord and BFRPG. And all were done for the love of the original game. However, as I have stated before, C&C is where I landed and where I'll stay. That doesn't mean the OSRIC boys are bad and there are a few of the derogitoraly called "Bunker Buddies" I have gotten along with and still do. I wish them the best in their efforts.

Now with all this classic era stuff being redone will somebody take on OD&D?
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:20 am

Dan Proctor wrote:
Well, by that definition, I don't see how OSRIC is an offender. As far as I've seen, no OSRIC publisher has used any material designated product identity.

True, but then again I never stated that OSRIC was either.

As it stands, OSRIC seems to be a re-creation of a 1st Edition style Player's Handbook. I think that, in itself, is a positive thing. However, I don't see any other reason to publish an adventure under the OSRIC label with the exception for the purposes of branding and name recognition (since "AD&D" obviously can't be used).

M
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:41 am

Just FYI, but I hereby withdraw the suggestion that OSRIC's authors might provide some of the legal reassurances to the public on the net. It was silly and stupid of me.

Thank You,

Mike
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:04 am

Julian,

Re: An Open SRD for Original D&D:

Actually, I believe Finarvyn is attempting to do just that.
Mike
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Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:47 am

seskis281 wrote:
We don't have any former CIA wetboys hanging around this debate do we????

You don't think we'd actually say now would you?

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:38 pm

Dan Proctor wrote:
Not back when they were doing their old 'zine.

Indeed. I was actually referring to K&C 101-110). The back of K&C 107, for instance, states:

Quote:
*Advanced Dungeons & Dragons is a registered trademark of Wizards of the Coast,Inc. Rolemaster is a registered trademark of Iron Crown Enterprises. The holders have not authorized the use of these trademarks. Unguarded Hoard, Kalamar Quest, Kingdoms of Kalamar and HackMaster are trademarks of Kenzer and Company.

moriarty777 wrote:
As it stands, OSRIC seems to be a re-creation of a 1st Edition style Player's Handbook. I think that, in itself, is a positive thing. However, I don't see any other reason to publish an adventure under the OSRIC label with the exception for the purposes of branding and name recognition (since "AD&D" obviously can't be used).

Just the one that you mentioned above regarding convenience, avoiding pitfalls and limited legal protection [i.e. untested]. For hobbiests who want to publish their work and distribute it for free this is also true, as well as providing a free version of the rules for anybody who cannot get hold of a copy of the core books (or enough copies to distribute to a new group unfamiliar with old school play). Labyrinth Lord, as was intended, is actually being printed out via Lulu and used in play. OSRIC 2.0 also looks as though it will be a more 'complete' version of the rules that can be printed out and used for actual gaming.
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Dan Proctor · Post by **Dan Proctor** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:25 pm

moriarty777 wrote:
However, I don't see any other reason to publish an adventure under the OSRIC label with the exception for the purposes of branding and name recognition

Yep, that's entirely the point. Many people these days know what OSRIC is. Other well known people/companies like Rob Kuntz, Goodman Games, etc. can sell on their names alone, and don't need another publicized brand to help with name recognition.

shane · Post by **shane** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:05 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
The whole business of "You MUST play this way, with these rules, with xyz art, from whatever era" is crazy.

I just had a Hrn Forum flash back.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:25 pm

Just out of curiosity what is the actual impact of C&C and OSRIC on the gaming community? That I have seen on the web both have very little web presence and in the gaming stores I have been to very few people there seem to know of either system or have seen products of them. If the actual impact is so little why was such a big fight taken out over it?
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Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:41 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Rob Kuntz doesn't seem to be having any problems either.

From what Rob told me, everything was within the OGL/SRD guidelines thingy. That's why it hasn't taken on any fire.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:44 pm

sieg wrote:
Julian,

Re: An Open SRD for Original D&D:

Actually, I believe Finarvyn is attempting to do just that.
Mike

Really? Now that has my interest!
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:59 pm

C&C has actually impacted rather well on the market. It just depends on where you live. The local shops around me, for example, have quite a few folks asking for it and playing it. I'm peripherally aware of a couple hundred players within about 90 minutes from where I live. Some I know, most I don't, and only a few that I had any direct impact on by pawning a few copies of the system here and there at local cons.

C&C's also been in the top 10 sales figures of magazines like Comic and Retailers monthly.

There's more folks looking at supporting it, quite frankly because it makes more money and is reaching a wider fan base due to deliberately designed broad appeal. Its difficult enough to manage in this market as it is, narrowing ones focus is nonsensical for anyone who wants to retain a viable business model.

Most folks like change, and even the long term players of D&D that I know (original playtesters included) don't stick with one set of rules forever.

This has been my experience from some 20 odd years of dealing with a wide variety of science fiction and fantasy fandom types, from all across the country, in general.

As to why there was such a fuss, it beats me? TLG offered a product that, in part, offered a means to emulate a certain style of gaming. Some folks didn't think that was good enough and so proceeded to thrash TLG with a load of rhetoric based on ideas both subjective and imaginary.

No matter what one does, theres always someone who's going to come along and say 'not good enough'. *shrug*

And yet, folks come along with a deal that seems to satisfy a few folks that were unsatisfied with C&C, yet its not having quite the expected impact. At least going by the commentary one can read hither and yon. A niche of a niche of a niche. No real stretch of the imagination is required to see why.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:13 pm

Region may have alot to do with it. Here it's still mostly d20, WoD or collectible games. (An aside is that we need some good C&C supporters to come to MO and do some Blitz-demoing to get the game some momentum here.) I also wonder what the landscape of the community will look like after 4e. There is some fragmentation in WOTC's fanbase over it and I wonder if some of the disillusioned will come to games like C&C or the online 'Simalcrums' for gaming needs.

Perhaps a push from Corporate gaming to small press?
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:22 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
Region may have alot to do with it. Here it's still mostly d20, WoD or collectible games. (An aside is that we need some good C&C supporters to come to MO and do some Blitz-demoing to get the game some momentum here.)

Actually, you might talk to a couple of folks who were at that Whiteheart Faire. There's a couple that I know that live in that neck of the woods who are big into gaming and know all about C&C.

St Louis actually has a good population of C&C gamers. TLG's made a good push at the Archon convention over the last few years. Although, I missed the last one since it was the NASFIC event and they moved the date to a week before GenCon.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:29 pm

Was this the same folks that was selling the hand made games? Speaking of White Hart I have heard there is a third year planned for it.
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danbuter · Post by **danbuter** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:36 am

shane wrote:
I just had a Hrn Forum flash back.

Hah! You and your potatoes.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:57 pm

Six pages and still going. I'm impressed and glad this is happening.
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