Troll Lord Games

I noticed that TLG has a lot of stuff in the pipeline - Castle Zagyg, the "A" Series, Cult of Yex, the Siege Engine boxed sets etc, but a lot of is still in production. Lots of new stuff is announced but existing projects are not completed, while further new projects are announced and not completed.

For those of you who remember Guardians of Order, one of the reasons they collapsed was that they neglected their core game (BESM) by creating dozens of different variations of the rules (e.g Tri-Stat DX, Silver Age Sentinels), dividing up their customer base. Ryan Dancey suggested that one of the reasons TSR went down was that by having lots of different gamelines, they sub-divided customer base.

With TLG, there's alot of new stuff constantly being announced but no follow-up or completion on existing projects. (It's not quite GOO or TSR's problem, but it seems like there's lots of different, uncompleted stuff, division of customer base and no follow-through.) This doesn't sound healthy or suggest a coherent business plan or strategy behind what TLG is doing. I worry that with TLG announcing all this stuff, completing one or two bits of the project and then moving onto something, isn't really good for the long-term health of the company or the C&C product line. I'm worried that they may not be able to take advantage of the good fortune caused by 4E dissension - players buy the two main books, and that's currently all you can get for C&C, unless you want to get modules. And work on the Siege boxed sets could draw resources away from C&C development. The release schedule seems rather random - announcements are made and are not kept, and I don't know about new PDF products until they magically show up at RPGnow - they aren't evening announced on the main website.

All I'd like to know is that TLG knows about this stuff is working on addressing these concerns; to work towards finishing off one project consistently, rather than this current random release schedule. I'd like to know that TLG has a strategy in mind and will be around in many years to come, even after their current boom period passes.
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I don't recall which post it was, but in one of them from the last few days Steve specifically mentioned bringing on extra help for Crusader (and possibly other projects?) While I understand your concerns, I believe branching out is a good thing for TLG. WOTC proved having a common game mechanic across multiple genres (D&D, modern, future, etc.) does indeed attract players because they do not have to learn a whole new set of rules for each one. Right now, for fantasy gaming I play C&C, but if I want to run a sci-fi game for my group I have to look elsewhere. By having a selection of genres available I think they strengthen the "Seige" brand even further. Perhaps one day we'll see open third party support for C&C such as Green Ronin has announced for True 20. This definitely has pitfalls as you can get crap released for the system, but with the year long wait for most developers to put out anything for 4E this might be a good time to consider it. The downside is foregoing quality control to an extent, but perhaps this could be handled like GR does by having a review board to approve new stuff before it is released. I'm sure a few trusted volunteers could be found to handle this task so it wouldn't add to Steve and Davis' work load.
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Thomas A. Tullis

Fat Dragon Games
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Castles & Crusades...more D&D than D&D.

Yeah, the wait time for the CKG has been a tad ridiculous.

Fat Dragon Games wrote:
Perhaps one day we'll see open third party support for C&C such as Green Ronin has announced for True 20.

This I would love to see. And it's the same for me for when I want to run a sci-fi game. C&C is my go-to system now for fantasy but I would indeed like to see it spread across genres. That to me is a good thing.

slimykuotoan wrote:
Yeah, the wait time for the CKG has been a tad ridiculous.

Yeah, it has been a long wait. But, it was never an integral part of the game though.
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Deogolf wrote:
Yeah, it has been a long wait. But, it was never an integral part of the game though.

And I agree with this about the CKG, I get by just fine as is, but it's the not knowing what the goodies are that will be in the CKG that slays me. In the end, I am not too shaken up and I am not straying from C&C, there is more than enough material to keep my C&C game going for ages.
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I will agree with Storm Queen. One compay putting out tons of games will hurt sales for the other games from that company, because it divides the fan bas. HOWEVER, branching out is another way to get customers into the company that might niot be to swift on C&C. As long as TLG remains on the side of C&C as being it's core moneymaker, then I think TLG will be fine.

But yes, the concerns by Storm Queen are well founded.

-O
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Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

I think those are some interesting points brought up Storm Queen however, here's a few things to consider:

Because of some of these concerns in the past, there has been a change of focus (or rather a focusing) in priorities. A blog post at the beginning of December addressed some of this stuff and things are moving along pretty much as detailed. In short, the CKG was and still is the priority.

Chimera's Roost which had the primary work finished, needed to go through layout, and it has. To my understanding, it's done and ready to be ordered!

C2 - Shades of Mist still needs some work, but it has been bumped continuously to get other things done like making sure Crusader 8 was put to bed and the future of the magazine is better managed (hiring someone else to take care of it). There was no update on A5 simply because they're working on the CKG.

C&C Basic has been put a lot further back on the queue but I assume it will become a focus again after the CKG is ready for print. In short, it does seem that TLG is more focused than they were before.

As for the rest:

The Yggsburgh Town Modules material (as in text) is largely done, so as art and layout is finished on them, they're going to be printed. The Castle Zagyg material is on target pretty much and this is mostly because the writing is being done by different people. The same thing goes for a lot of other work that has been announced. Some of it just needs those finishing touches before they get printed out and most of it has been from other writers like Robert with his Engineering Dungeons or the various Siege Box Sets written by others. Star Siege has been in development for a very long time and will be here before the summer with a planned quickstart for it to be released for this year's Free RPG Day.

With 4th Edition around the corner, the Siege line of Box Sets is important to illustrate the Siege system is not only a one-trick pony and that it can be used for other things. This is something that could become important to TLG for licensing purposes and other potential diversification. The CKG will be a cornerstone for TLG's flagship product and the LA material, is getting the attention it deserves with a fan base which already exists.

That said, I don't think C&C is being neglected in the slightest, but I do think that they are taking the advantage of the time before 4E comes out to build a stronger base for the company. I think the future is bright, but I do see how it might look like they still have a full plate on their hands.

M
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I am not sure what to think about this. On one hand, I like the fact that C&C is a tad niche. However, if the Trolls need to survive the hard days of RPGs, apparently, the RPG industry is not at its best years, the business must go on and if they can do it right and it works for them, then it works for us as we will see strong support for our fav. system.

Paizo have their main Pathfinder stuff along with so many other products and they seem to do well.

I for one would love to see a new "modern" type RPG especially using the simple Siege system. With hopes that we get good character classes and not a cheesy charismatic and strong "hero" types! How about having to play mister average shoe store salesman stuck in the train of terror with 100 sexy cheerleader zombies cheering for B.R.A.I.N.Z. ...
ZW.
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ZeornWarlock wrote:
I for one would love to see a new "modern" type RPG especially using the simple Siege system. With hopes that we get good character classes and not a cheesy charismatic and strong "hero" types! How about having to play mister average shoe store salesman stuck in the train of terror with 100 sexy cheerleader zombies cheering for B.R.A.I.N.Z. ...
ZW.

Hell, I'd play-test that system if it every surfaced
Rob
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I have to vote on the CKG wait being a bit much but, TLG fans are used to this. However I would hope that the Troll keep their focus on C&C and that line and then branch out when it gets caught up.
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I think adding products to the line is a good thing, if the core product doesn't get delayed further. I haven't been around here for nearly as long as many of you but even so, I've noticed quite the delay in things. I'm hoping some of the materials that have been on the table will get put out soon rather than pushing them back even more to get out new stuff.

Castle Zagyg, CKG -- looking forward to these.
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gideon_thorne wrote:
There are lots of explanations that a clever CK can use to bullshit any roll.

I would just like for the Trolls to finish what they have had announced for year(s) now.
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Exactly. I'd rather see the rest of Zagyg, the CKG, the rest of the A-series, Adventurers Backpack, and such before the new stuff.
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Julian Grimm wrote:
Exactly. I'd rather see the rest of Zagyg, the CKG, the rest of the A-series, Adventurers Backpack, and such before the new stuff.

I'm not disagreeing with you... but where does one draw the line?

The Castle Zagyg material, is being worked on by people who are pretty much dedicated to it so I don't know if it can come out any faster. In the meantime, at least town material is being released without taking resources away from Castle Zagyg. The CKG, well... you won't get any arguments from me or anyone else on these boards. As for A5, I was pretty sure Davis is writing that, and I'd rather him do writing on the CKG to get that out ASAP.

A couple of other projects that have been a long time coming which aren't C&C. These are things Star Siege or a revised Player's Manual for LA (to move from the Essentials Box Set). A release for both of these key products is just as important as all the other promised C&C goodies are IMO.

The products I would most want to see by Gencon:

1) The CKG

2) The Adventurer's Backpack (unless this gets integrated in the CKG)

3) Star Siege

4) LA Revised

5) Inzae Folio

If the rumors hold true, the CKG should be out well beforehand but I don't expect the Inzae Folio to happen this year...

M
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moriarty777 wrote:
I'm not disagreeing with you... but where does one draw the line?

The Castle Zagyg material, is being worked on by people who are pretty much dedicated to it so I don't know if it can come out any faster. In the meantime, at least town material is being released without taking resources away from Castle Zagyg.

Precisely so. The CZ work that Gary and I collaborate on -- the writing, the edits, the revisions, etc. -- has no bearing on how (for example) Josh drafts StarSIEGE, or how Davis oversees the CKG. Different creative writing teams, each team on its own little island.

You do have a point. I guess this is more the three month venting that we have to do to stay dedicated.
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Julian Grimm wrote:
You do have a point. I guess this is more the three month venting that we have to do to stay dedicated.

Well, if nothing else, this thread does give a pretty good idea of what folks are interested in seeing the most.

That is always useful.
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Quote:
Well, if nothing else, this thread does give a pretty good idea of what folks are interested in seeing the most.

Precisely what gives me hope for the future on this, as difficult as it may be to wait for work that was supposed to be out six-plus months ago. Storm Queen has brought up some excellent and well-articulated points, but I think the TSR analogy goes off a bit when it's considered that Troll Lords really has only one core game system to refer to; anything else - I assume, anyway - is pretty much an add-on. I'm not familiar with this "GOO" company, much less what sort of business practices they indulged in, but the question of the wisdom of starting new projects before old ones are even near completion is a serious one and does invite some input.

I have faith in TLG, however, mostly because Steven has been extremely forthright on his blog, and on the boards here, and been determined to keep us up to date on progress - however bogged down on a particular project that progress may be. For those out there who might not be familiar with the situation, there is a surface resemblance with Troll Lords and the delays with the CKG and such to Decipher's horrible conduct re the Star Trek and LotR RPGs. Both companies were experiencing ongoing delays with key works; both had seperate divisions working on vital game components; both companies were deluged with requests for information; and both had a core audience/customer base that refused to let a dream die. The key difference here - and this is where I "keep the faith" - is that Decipher brushed off its fan base like half-bright horseflies without apology and for years on end; they never gave a ripe damn whether the customers got what they wanted/ordered, because they never gave a tin s*** about the games - all that concerned them were profits. The fact that Steven is keeping us in the loop gives TLG major rhythm as far as I'm concerned; and I'm content to wait - however long that may be, although hopefully not too long - for the works in question to see the light of day.

Seems to me the module releases are coming in good order.... if you start stacking the numbers of modules coming out and comparing with TSR's 1e releases then TLG is in good shape there.

I'm glad to hear Steve is bringing on help to take Crusader off his day-to-day plate (although I know how hard it is to let go of such things when you have personal investment).

It seems the biggest "where is it" factor is on the CKG and, always, on the CZ actual dungeons because, let's be honest, we've been waiting for these for two decades + before TLG ever existed!
As long as the new additions are self-contained box sets, these sort of game expansions can only increase the viability of the company. I personally am very interested in Star Siege, and I would love to see a post-apocalyptic (aka Gamma World) set using the siege engine...
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I love the Trolls outright but you have to deliver what you say you're going to deliver.

Ideas are great, strategy is great but where the great is seperated from the common folk is execution.

Generally, its not good business management to have this happen too much.
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seskis281 wrote:
As long as the new additions are self-contained box sets, these sort of game expansions can only increase the viability of the company. I personally am very interested in Star Siege...

I must say, I'm rather interested in this release as well.

seskis281 wrote:


It seems the biggest "where is it" factor is on the CKG and, always, on the CZ actual dungeons because, let's be honest, we've been waiting for these for two decades + before TLG ever existed!

I, too, was a faithful Dragon reader back in the day, and when Castle Greyhawk was mentioned I looked forward to it with great anticipation. When I caught word of Castle Zagyg in 2004, I still looked forward to it, and still later as I was picking up freelance work developing a few of the Yggsburgh town sectors throughout late 2005 to 2006.

It wasn't until January of 07' that Steve and Gary asked me to help develop the castle project, but first I had to complete the project I was working on, so my contributions to CZ did not begin in earnest until February '07.

We are in the final stretch of drafting the mss. for The Upper Works, and I am pleased to say it is coming together quite nicely. Future boxed sets beyond the Upper Works should be produced more quickly, as I've gotten my sea-legs, so to speak, learning the ropes from the Father of the Game, and generally becoming more efficient at the entire process along the way (or so I hope!). I'm honored and grateful to be where I am, working on this fantastic adventure with the grandmaster of RPG design, no less, and I hope folks enjoy playing as much as I'm enjoying co-developing it.

Best,

--Jeff T.

I think this is one of those situations where you're essentially damned either way.

If you don't make announcements, people don't think you're working on anything. If you do, they want status updates. If you don't give status updates, they think the project's stalled. If you do give status updates, people get upset at the pace. Etc. Etc. Etc.

So, keep up the good work, trolls, and don't rush anything out the door just because of the grumbling. Spend whatever time you need to get it right. After all, you only get impatient customers in the first place if your previous material is good enough to leave them hungry for more. Things look quite promising for 2008.

Ghul wrote:
I, too, was a faithful Dragon reader back in the day, and when Castle Greyhawk was mentioned I looked forward to it with great anticipation. When I caught word of Castle Zagyg in 2004, I still looked forward to it, and still later as I was picking up freelance work developing a few of the Yggsburgh town sectors throughout late 2005 to 2006.

It wasn't until January of 07' that Steve and Gary asked me to help develop the castle project, but first I had to complete the project I was working on, so my contributions to CZ did not begin in earnest until February '07.

We are in the final stretch of drafting the mss. for The Upper Works, and I am pleased to say it is coming together quite nicely. Future boxed sets beyond the Upper Works should be produced more quickly, as I've gotten my sea-legs, so to speak, learning the ropes from the Father of the Game, and generally becoming more efficient at the entire process along the way (or so I hope!). I'm honored and grateful to be where I am, working on this fantastic adventure with the grandmaster of RPG design, no less, and I hope folks enjoy playing as much as I'm enjoying co-developing it.

Best,

--Jeff T.

Good to hear, Jeff!

Following Moriarty's lead, here are the products I'd most like to see:

1) Crusader going monthly

2) Castle Zagyg

3) CZ: Yggsburgh town sectors

4) CK Guide

5) Adventurer's Backpack
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Hey folks,

All good points and appreciate the patience and the frustration both (not that I *appreciate* your frustration, but I can empathize... with it). Everyone has very good reason to be concerned, but I'll do my best to dispel that concern. We have begun this year better than the last.

At any rate, tonight we have website updates and a non-convention related blog entry will go up. I'll give the break down of projects and personnel working on said projects so that you all have a better idea of what is coming.

But rest assured, my time will now....literally this afternoon, be removed from other projects and given to Davis for continued work on the CKG. It is presently my goal to have a final draft by Troll Con. I am NOT confident that will happen, but we'll see.

Thanks!

Steve
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Aight... CKG might not see the light of day by Troll Con, and that is OK (in my opinion). However, these other projects could use some help and it's good to know Steve is on the case.

Peace be with you brother... You;re going to need it!

-O
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Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Here is my dream list for C&C/SIEGE System stuff:

1) Crusader getting bigger. Monthly, maybe. But bigger is better.

2) Castles. The new magazine that features adventures and dungeon layouts. It can come out on the off-months to fill the gap if Crusader stays bi-monthly.

3) a GAZ series for Airdhe, or something like the Poor Wizards' Almanac.

4) Castle Keeper's Guide

5) Pulp fiction-era hero SIEGE game so I can wear my Indy Jones hat and fight nazi air pirates on biplane wings while it's flying.
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Things I want to see, in no real order:

1) Castle Keepers Guide

2) Monsters and Treasure II

3) An actual bi-monthly schedule for Crusader

4) SIEGE Box Set showcasing the flexibility of the SIEGE Engine

5) Castle Zagyg and Yggsburgh Town Expansions

6) Less serleran on the boards.

I'm starting to agree with CharlieRock. I don't care if Crusader goes monthly or bimonthly, as long as it becomes regular. I also like his "Castles" magazine idea.

I realize starting a second and running two mags is a tall order, but I figure we're making wish lists where money and production costs are no obstacle.
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AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax