C&C Players Handbook in PDF?

[Harry Joy]

gideon_thorne wrote:
All of them go through either Alliance or Diamond, which means, if the books are not on the shelves, they can order it. The more folks order through those places, the more likely that particular branch will continue to stock it.

A couple of weeks ago, when I was asking about some newer C&C releases, one of the clerks let me watch as he pulled up the Diamond catalog on the store PC. We didn't see much of anything at all when we looked. Maybe the clerk was doing it wrong, but he's been at the store for years and looked pretty capable to me.

[gideon_thorne]

serleran wrote:
Which begs the question, Peter, if they are not being carried, how is one to know to order it, if one does not even know it exists because it is not being carried? Its a vicious cycle only Fat Bastard can break.

This, my friends, is why the Trolls do so many con appearances all over, and why they need you to, as well... to promote the game to as many people in as many places as possible.

This is why word of mouth still is the best form of advertising.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[gideon_thorne]

Harry Joy wrote:
A couple of weeks ago, when I was asking about some newer C&C releases, one of the clerks let me watch as he pulled up the Diamond catalog on the store PC. We didn't see much of anything at all when we looked. Maybe the clerk was doing it wrong, but he's been at the store for years and looked pretty capable to me.

Then he ought to try the Alliance list then.
I know for a fact that those chains carry or can get in the books though, since folks in Tulsa are getting the C&C books through them or have seen them on the shelves.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Troll Lord]

Geleg wrote:
neither our Borders nor our Barnes and Noble carries TLG products

And my point is really a comment about walk-in advertising.

In some ways my post really is simply a whiney complaint about the absence of any LGS in the Triad!

Geleg and Harry Joy bring up very salient points about the book trade. The book trade is the El Dorado of the gaming world. Getting a heavy book trade presence is thought to be the panacea to the seemingly shrinking game store market. Personally I don't believe the game stores are shrinking, and think the entire market is reorganizing itself as it responds to new production methods and consumer desires.

But I do believe the book trade is a marvelous opportunity to expand both TLG and the game through sheer exposure. The rates are good but the returns are deadly. The distributors are highly efficient, vetted companies that reflect the massive volume in sales (despite the many claim that 107% of all Americans can't read, we sure do buy alot of books and magazines). Breaking into them is surprisingly easy, maintaining presence, not really that hard.

BUT...and there is always a but doing so has proved problematical for us. Time management being a problem around here we've used first Wizards Attic for this, then Impressions and now we go through Diamond. Wizards Attic was run by a bonehead and went out of business after ripping off hosts of clients. Impressions found the return policy to difficult to manage (double ship fees) and costly for its business model and Diamond is, by and large, a comic book distributor.

I have on my desk the paper to relaunch this side of the business and will probably get it rolling in the next month or so as time permits. We'll abandon, or rather leave behind the obvious choices and go with one of th e large old distributors. Unchartered territory for us, but vital I think.

So with that in mind, and Peter is DEAD ON with this, these channels are very reactive to store sells. They have tight inventory management. The more it sells through their stores, the higher their orders and the more exposure.

Look to the future. I really do think 2008 will be a good year for the Crusade.

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[Omote]

So then I should order 5 copies of the C&C PHB at my local Barnes & Noble... not purchase the book so that the copies go up on the store shelf?

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Geleg]

thanks for the comments, Steve. Always interesting to see how you guys are one step ahead!

I also think 2008 will be the YEAR OF THE TROLL! (hmm... maybe you should put that into your advertising .....)

G

[Zudrak]

Omote wrote:
So then I should order 5 copies of the C&C PHB at my local Barnes & Noble... not purchase the book so that the copies go up on the store shelf?

-O

In my best Monty Python voice:

"Good idea, lord!"
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

[serleran]

"Of course its a good idea."

[gideon_thorne]

Omote wrote:
So then I should order 5 copies of the C&C PHB at my local Barnes & Noble... not purchase the book so that the copies go up on the store shelf?

-O

Exactly.

Everyone should go to these chains and order at least one. Such scattered requests will get it seen as a stock item.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Zudrak]

serleran wrote:
"Of course its a good idea."

Slam and dunk. *bows* I thank you for finishing that.
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

[Akrasia]

Omote wrote:
So then I should order 5 copies of the C&C PHB at my local Barnes & Noble... not purchase the book so that the copies go up on the store shelf?

-O

Well, as much as I want to support TLG, this seems dishonest. You're deliberately misleading the people who run the store in question.

I wouldn't do it, myself. There must be more ethical ways to support TLG.
_________________
While it is unlikely to interest most of you, here is my 'cunning' blog: http://dailyakrasia.blogspot.com/

[moriarty777]

Akrasia wrote:
Well, as much as I want to support TLG, this seems dishonest. You're deliberately misleading the people who run the store in question.

I wouldn't do it, myself. There must be more ethical ways to support TLG.

I think that was perhaps more 'tongue in cheek' than anything else. Or at least I hope so!
M
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"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

[Zudrak]

Akrasia wrote:
Well, as much as I want to support TLG, this seems dishonest. You're deliberately misleading the people who run the store in question.

I wouldn't do it, myself. There must be more ethical ways to support TLG.

I agree with your moral point, but I would guess Omote was joking. As for the more ethical way, I think gideon_thorne proffered that in his last post.
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

[Akrasia]

moriarty777 wrote:
...

I think that was perhaps more 'tongue in cheek' than anything else. Or at least I hope so!
M

Ahhh ... hard to detect such things on the intraweb. My apologies if I misunderstood.
_________________
While it is unlikely to interest most of you, here is my 'cunning' blog: http://dailyakrasia.blogspot.com/

[serleran]

Morals? Ethics? Business? When did these become possible in the same sentence?

[Troll Lord]

Well honestly, ordering and not buying has a short term gain, long term harm. I know this theory floats around a bit, at least amongst my publishing peers, but I don't buy it.

Stores like B&N and Borders do pretty good inventory control. Note when you go there and buy a book, like a history book that they only carry one copy of, note that they will replace that book in short order. If a book does not sell they don't necessarily return it, but if they have orders for 5 books and these don't sell it will come up in the inventory system. These may very well get returned. I'll have long since been paid for them of course, but with full returnable I have to buy them back from the distributor. PLUS I have to pay an extra fee and sometimes a shipping charge (depending on the store). Some stores have better inventory control and management than others obviously.

Best for me to get it in the system and the books make the rounds and get picked up.

This is the problem with the book trade, its risky and crowded and cold.

So, the idea is to take a strong product, of which the PH is, and try to get them to do a splash marketing. I have to pay for that, but it might reap huge dividends in the future.

So Omote, in answer to your question...er no.
Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[Harry Joy]

I talked to the owner of Comics and Collectibles today. He revealed to me something I honestly did not know - that the guy doing the RPG ordering is a former employee of mine. I knew he worked there, and knew he played RPGs, but I didn't know he did the ordering.

The screws are going to come out now. If he wants anything remotely like a decent reference from me.... EVER.... well, you get the picture.

The owner also said that the entire RPG market from his POV was depressed and sales down to a dribble because of 4th Edition. Well, considering that in the past two years he went from about 60 feet of shelves devoted to RPGs to about 20, it can't all be blamed on 4th, but as for the current environment I'm sure he is right. Everyone is in wait-and-see mode. But he is of a mind that 4th is going to bomb and things getting more interesting as 3rd party publishers start picking up the slack.

He said that he would like to see C&C take off, and suggested that I start pressing his buyer, my former employee, into giving it a shot. I think that is a fool's errand, though. I know the kid fairly well, and he's a pretty big fan of 3rd Edition. Very much into the "vertical" character growth model, as opposed to the somewhat sideways approach of C&C.

[moriarty777]

Harry Joy wrote:
The owner also said that the entire RPG market from his POV was depressed and sales down to a dribble because of 4th Edition. Well, considering that in the past two years he went from about 60 feet of shelves devoted to RPGs to about 20, it can't all be blamed on 4th, but as for the current environment I'm sure he is right. Everyone is in wait-and-see mode. But he is of a mind that 4th is going to bomb and things getting more interesting as 3rd party publishers start picking up the slack.

Not too dissimilar from what I've been hearing when I'm talking to the owner of one of the LGS nearest to me. The announcement of 4th Edition, which was announced in August, has had a negative impact leading up to and over the holidays. Even now, he's having problems getting stuff from his distributors and ends up going directly -- not only because of 4th Edition but fear of an economic recession.

Fortunately, the store in question is diversified enough to not be too hurt by it even though it usually means me placing more special orders than not.

M
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

[Tadhg]

serleran wrote:
Morals? Ethics? Business? When did these become possible in the same sentence?

Well, that should be possible, unless you're talking about microsoft, dupont and/or oil companies!!
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[Tadhg]

Zudrak wrote:
I agree with your moral point, but I would guess Omote was joking. As for the more ethical way, I think gideon_thorne proffered that in his last post.

Hopefully, they are joking . . .

But along these lines in a way that is ethical and very helpful - go to your local library and request that they order the C&C PH and M&T. You, as a tax payer/supporter of the library are entitled to do this.

I did it and they were thrilled to accommodate me, because so many people don't realize that the library is happy to do it.

And then, when they get the books . . take them out for each of your game sessions to have an extra copy available.

This worked so very well for our first year of C&C.

Now when I check, the books are hardly ever available.

_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[rabindranath72]

Rhuvein wrote:
Hopefully, they are joking . . .

But along these lines in a way that is ethical and very helpful - go to your local library and request that they order the C&C PH and M&T. You, as a tax payer/supporter of the library are entitled to do this.

I did it and they were thrilled to accommodate me, because so many people don't realize that the library is happy to do it.

And then, when they get the books . . take them out for each of your game sessions to have an extra copy available.

This worked so very well for our first year of C&C.

Now when I check, the books are hardly ever available.

This is an EXCELLENT idea Rhu! I live in the UK, in Stafford, and it seems no one here ever heard about RPGs Perhaps by asking the local library to order it, I might start moving things a bit

[Omote]

Is the C&C Collector's Set available on pdf from any of these online pdf retailers yet?

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[moriarty777]

Omote wrote:
Is the C&C Collector's Set available on pdf from any of these online pdf retailers yet?

-O

Not yet... I think that will change when the last Collector's Set sells out though.

M
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

[Harry Joy]

Harry Joy wrote:
I talked to the owner of Comics and Collectibles today...

And again today, at some length. It was a rainy day, and I'd JUST gotten my hair done up, so I wasn't going to let the damp frizzle my beautiful new curls...

Wait, wrong story.

Ron told me that the main trouble he's having nowadays with Alliance is that they are not stocking more than a handful of any given new release. He says that if he doesn't get an order in early enough, or if word of mouth leads him to rethink his order, that he's out of luck. Sometimes, he says, Alliance doesn't even ship what he does order.

It's not worrying him much right now. He said that the only RPG product at his store that's moving in any numbers right now is Pathfinder. But, he says he could sell more of other products [he specifically griped about Rifter], if he could get more than one or two in stock at a time, when folks are still asking to buy it. [Yeah, Bill, I mentioned your woes with Rifter when he said that.]

But, the best thing was getting a chance to browbeat the kid who actually purchases the RPGs for Ron right now. He promised to get more copies of whatever new releases the Trolls have listed than he currently orders. I told him that he had at least two or three guaranteed sales for each new book out of my group alone and that he'd never find out what sales he was missing if he kept selling out of TL new releases day of release because I got the only copy.

Oh, and I think I got both the owner, Ron, and the kid excited about Star SIEGE. And Crusader, to a degree. They support mags, KotDT and Kobold Quarterly, as much as they can.

I also got the idea from them, again, that they are expecting 4th to be a big flop, once the initial fervor is over. They are predicting that, in the long term, they'll see more sales from 3.x than the new edition.

[Omote]

I just noticed that Nobleknight Games is selling the Collector's Box set once again at $5.00 off retail.

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[CharlieRock]

Omote wrote:
I just noticed that Nobleknight Games is selling the Collector's Box set once again at $5.00 off retail.

-O

Isn't that because their stock is used?
_________________
The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[Harry Joy]

CharlieRock wrote:
Isn't that because their stock is used?

No. Their stock is a mix, and it's always clearly noted what is what. The Collector's Box: LINK

[CharlieRock]

Harry Joy wrote:
No. Their stock is a mix, and it's always clearly noted what is what. The Collector's Box: LINK

Five bucks is really only cost of shipping. They may have a credit to their account with their shipping company and can use that to 'push' certain product. Core rulesets are good to 'push' because it often leads to module sales down the line.

I'm not sure how web-houses do 'pushes' for real. In a 'real' store you can make a standard with a company (say, Kraft cheese) to display a set amount at a set proximity to the door and other products. Basically you let manufacturers "bribe" the store (for lack of a better word) for better shelf space. This "bribe" is in the form of a lowered price which is then passed along to the customer (and the store gets to put it's 'low-price' product right up front to lure in more customers).
_________________
The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[Omote]

The only reason I posted it was for those that didn't have the opportunity to get it from the Trolls, and the Box Set has more exposure on NNG.

Just sayin'

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[boxcornersdiety]

I don't see an urgent need for a PDF. What I would *much* prefer, is for the PDF version of C&C condensed to be unlocked. Why? To easily distribute things like the character visualization section--or just the four pages of SIEGE mechanic--to my players without sending them a hundred pages of extraneous information.

It is not my intention to argue what the "proper use" of a PDF should be. My point is, I'm perfectly happy with my PH as print, but I will use my condensed PDF as an aid to get a game started. To do this I will photocopy (or use some KDE/xpdf/pdf2ps tools) to cut out the few pages that I would like prospective players to read in order to figure out whether or not they want to play. So no, I don't need a full version of the PH in PDF. I would just be happier if the condensed PDF I bought were more useful--unlocked--and more complementary to my print version.