C&C Players Handbook in PDF?

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:14 pm

It's one of those issues that won't get easily resolved. DRM's are generally a bad thing, and I find the 'Watermarks' annoying and distracting (but thankfully less obstructive than DRM's)

I understand TLG's position and they have, more often than not, been releasing PDF material of their products but not everything. We've talked about their PHB not being released and there is also the Yggsburgh book. The Eastmark Gazetteer has also not been released to the best of my knowledge nor has the CK Screen for perhaps obvious reasons.

I fully understand James Mishler's as well and fully support it too. Hell, as a paying subscriber, I love his work and want to see it continue. My only wish is that, once a particular issue of the journal sells out, a PDF version of it eventually comes available (and just the journal mind you).

I feel that PDF's can have many uses... one of the most important of which to keep a long "Out Of Print" product out there and available.

M
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jamesmishler · Post by **jamesmishler** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:34 pm

moriarty777 wrote:
My only wish is that, once a particular issue of the journal sells out, a PDF version of it eventually comes available (and just the journal mind you).

That actually is in the cards, as the Journal is a limited-print periodical. Once the print issue sells out, I will make a PDF version available; in all likelihood it will be at a nominal fee for subscribers. Still don't know how it will all work out yet... we shall see.

We are still a far way away from selling out on that first issue, dammit...
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Akrasia · Post by **Akrasia** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:27 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
... Better having only the paper book then.

Um, that won't solve anything about piracy, since any book can be scanned. Piracy is bad, but assuming that paper-only products is the solution is simply absurd.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:41 pm

DRM and watermarking are not going to help. There are freely available pdf editors that allow you to pull pages, of pure text (I'm sure they can do pictures, too, if requested.. just haven't tried it,) without even needing to open the pdf - these pdf editors also allow you to bypass password-protected files, as well, such as those offered by Necromancer Games as web enhancements. That is the way the electronic arms race happens. Develop something, someone cracks it. Develop something else, someone cracks it. All you have is a buffer zone between release and crack... and, once its cracked, you're pretty much screwed... and that is where the IP laws come in and suing people. Problem is: you can't know, or sue, everyone in the world who might have a copy of your illegally obtained item. And, if you try it, it only increases the piracy and smacks your real sales down (or so I've heard.)

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:34 pm

Akrasia wrote:
Um, that won't solve anything about piracy, since any book can be scanned. Piracy is bad, but assuming that paper-only products is the solution is simply absurd.

Though any book can be scanned... dedicated groups devoted to Piracy will not bother doing the work required to scan it and have it distributed unless there is a demand for it. This is regardless of what medium we are talking about ... movie... music... or books.

This leaves you with a few individuals doing so for whatever reason they may have to do so. However these efforts generally won't spread like wildfire and illegal spreading will be much more limited.

Regardless of the point one tries to argue, the results are probably negligible depending on the content in question. Above all, I personally believe in the protection of one's intellectual property as long as reasonable consideration is given with regards to fair use.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to deal with this issue ...

M
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:04 pm

There might not be a wrong or right way, but there is the Troll way. And right now, as it stands, there is not a C&C PDF planned. IF that changes, I'm sure Steve will make a formal announcement to that effect. Going round and round about the same topic over and over wont get it to happen any sooner though. ^_~`
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:15 pm

the Troll way, huh? Does that involve bashing it with a club, scratching themselves and drunking orc wine? because if that's the case, well then... the .pdfs are in SERIOUS trouble.
-O
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Akrasia · Post by **Akrasia** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:30 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
... Going round and round about the same topic over and over wont get it to happen any sooner though. ^_~`

Well, some supporters of C&C are expressing the fact that they would like a PDF version of the PHB. That is hardly 'going round and round'. That is giving TLG information about what (at least some of) their consumers want. I fail to see what is unproductive about communicating consumers' wishes to producers.

If TLG understands that there is a definite demand for PDFs, and that not releasing PDFs is unlikely to do anything about the existence of illegal PDFs, then I fail to see why expressing this demand might not actually make "it to happen any sooner". Even if TLG decides otherwise, what's the harm in making it clear that there does indeed exist a demand for PDFs?

gideon_thorne wrote:
^_~`

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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:48 pm

Akrasia wrote:
Even if TLG decides otherwise, what's the harm in making it clear that there does indeed exist a demand for PDFs?

Because its been brought up many times before and there has always been one clear, and consistent, answer.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:57 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
There might not be a wrong or right way, but there is the Troll way.

Sounds like the 'Troll Way' is a bit less subtle...

However, that was the point I was trying to get at with regards to intellectual property.

Akrasia wrote:
Well, some supporters of C&C are expressing the fact that they would like a PDF version of the PHB. That is hardly 'going round and round'. That is giving TLG information about what (at least some of) their consumers want. I fail to see what is unproductive about communicating consumers' wishes to producers.

I think it has more to do with the fact that this is not the first time that the subject has been brought up in a thread. I'm also pretty certain it won't be the last either.
M
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:58 pm

Omote wrote:
the Troll way, huh? Does that involve bashing it with a club, scratching themselves and drunking orc wine? because if that's the case, well then... the .pdfs are in SERIOUS trouble.
-O

Well... at least the job is getting done... somehow...

M
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Akrasia · Post by **Akrasia** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:03 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
...

Because its been brought up many times before and there has always been one clear, and consistent, answer.

Please don't assume that everyone who participates in this forum is familiar with every nuance of its past history.

In my own case, I had no idea that this topic had been discussed before.

If it does come up regularly, perhaps it should be 'stickied'?
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Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:07 pm

Akrasia wrote:
Please don't assume that everyone who participates in this forum is familiar with every nuance of its past history.

In my own case, I had no idea that this topic had been discussed before.

If it does come up regularly, perhaps it should be 'stickied'?

Same here. I'm not intimately aware of all subjects covered here.

On a last note: Apparently PDFs must be doing for TLG because they have released and I have purchased a lot of the offerings. I don't know of anyone with an illegal copy of anything from TLG. So, how's that for anecdotal evidence?

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:02 am

Akrasia wrote:
Um, that won't solve anything about piracy, since any book can be scanned. Piracy is bad, but assuming that paper-only products is the solution is simply absurd.

[and that not releasing PDFs is unlikely to do anything about the existence of illegal PDFs, ]

It may not be the solution, but I expect the losses would be much higher if the file was already available "for free". Sure scanners exist, but it is a piece of added work. I scanned some of my older products to avoid bringing them with me in UK, but I assure you it is a PITA.

I am not so sure that not releasing pdfs automatically implies that illegal pdfs will circulate at one time or another. Perhaps C&C is not so widely known that "someone" would bother himself by making scans.

Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:50 am

rabindranath72 wrote:
It may not be the solution, but I expect the losses would be much higher if the file was already available "for free". Sure scanners exist, but it is a piece of added work. I scanned some of my older products to avoid bringing them with me in UK, but I assure you it is a PITA.

I am not so sure that not releasing pdfs automatically implies that illegal pdfs will circulate at one time or another. Perhaps C&C is not so widely known that "someone" would bother himself by making scans.

What you see as work and a pain in the butt has already been done to all of WotC's products. It's probably due to the company's high profile.

The hurdle has been crossed and is like talking about closing the barn door after the horses got out.

And that brings us back to something. Would TLG products get pirated to the point where they would become available to Joe gamer who can find them on a whim? Better question, are they available now? Those questions being answered would probably go a long way to answering the points of this discussion rather than postulating about potential loss via anecdotal evidence.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:48 pm

Eisenmann wrote:
And that brings us back to something. Would TLG products get pirated to the point where they would become available to Joe gamer who can find them on a whim? Better question, are they available now? Those questions being answered would probably go a long way to answering the points of this discussion rather than postulating about potential loss via anecdotal evidence.

Yes, that was my point, the profile and request for such objects.

The point is, you cannot do just an "experiment". This is a one-time experiment, and if it goes bad, well. No turning back.

Better safe than sorry, I would say.

Akrasia · Post by **Akrasia** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:00 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
Yes, that was my point, the profile and request for such objects.

The point is, you cannot do just an "experiment". This is a one-time experiment, and if it goes bad, well. No turning back.

Better safe than sorry, I would say.

Well, you could always consider the experiences of other RPG companies comparable to TLG in terms of size that do offer PDFs of their core products. I know that Green Ronin and ICE both do, and I've never heard anything to the effect that doing so was damaging for their bottom line.

TLG is the exception with respect to PDFs. If PDFs were so damaging for profits, they wouldn't be alone.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:30 pm

Eisenmann wrote:
Would TLG products get pirated to the point where they would become available to Joe gamer who can find them on a whim?

Yes. Pirated copies of RPG books are some amazingly easy to get a hold of it boggles the mind. Particularly WOTC's books, defintely because of it's high profile and deep market penetration.

-O
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:12 pm

Akrasia wrote:
Well, you could always consider the experiences of other RPG companies comparable to TLG in terms of size that do offer PDFs of their core products. I know that Green Ronin and ICE both do, and I've never heard anything to the effect that doing so was damaging for their bottom line.

TLG is the exception with respect to PDFs. If PDFs were so damaging for profits, they wouldn't be alone.

I have no idea of how things _really_ go for other companies (and TLG, too), but in a worst-case scenario, I would recommend to not distribute pdfs. I have seen enough piracy of practically anything one could want, that if I should decide for my company whether to sell pdfs or not, I would rather not, unless seeing a proof that actually some "scanner" copies already existed.

JRR · Post by **JRR** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:06 pm

I've seen gamers show up with a pdf of just about everything. And every single time, they show up a week or two later with the actual book. The pirated copy ens up being nothing but free advertisement due to the hassle of printing it, putting some kind of cover on it and keeping it in readable condition. RPG piracy is a myth. There is never any actual loss of profit.

As with software piracy, there are a few different kinds of pirates:

1: Collectors, they simply have to have every thing available and download everything they can find, some may not even play the game.

2: Supplementers, those that actually have the product and also want a mobile copy.

3: Demos, those who want to try before they buy, no different really than browsing through a book in a store.

4: Cut and pasters:, someone might want to play one prestige class out of a $40.00 book and not want $198 pages they'll never use.

5: Those who prefer pdfs over hard copy and have no other choice than to pirate it due to the publisher not providing it in pdf form.

6: Cheap bastards: These people will take anything if they can get it free, but would never buy it at any price.

None of the above is a lost sale, these people either buy a hard copy or would never buy a hard copy anyway. That leaves the final guy:

7: This guy wants the book in any form he can get it. He'll take a pdf if he can find it, and as a last resort, he'll actually go buy the damn book and grumble because it's not on the p2p network. He might be a lost sale.

The result is minimal loss of products and TONS of free advertising. A net gain I would say. So does at least one other major publishing company:
http://baen.ghostwheel.com/
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:05 am

Well, I know people who simply downloaded the pdfs from p2p, and never bought the book, using the pdfs from their laptops or printing them. And this IS a loss: they got what they wanted without paying for it.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:57 pm

I have to agree with rab here JRR. I've read your post, but I'm lost as how you think RPG piracy is a myth. It's a fact, I've seen it with my own two eyes as well as many others here. This in itself would be a loss of profit, or better put, a loss of potential profit. If your point is to say that only potential profit is being lost, then you have to admit that loss of potential profit means less chance for profit. In turn less chance for profit will always directly affect actual profit.

-O
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:00 pm

I could be wrong, but I thought that Fantasy Grounds thingy gave you the rules...

Is that not in PDF?

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:12 pm

slimykuotoan wrote:
I could be wrong, but I thought that Fantasy Grounds thingy gave you the rules...

Is that not in PDF?

No, it's part of the program. You need the full host program and then you would buy the C&C rules. Your players would then have to get the lite program and be able to connect to the host and use the rules (for the session only). So the ruleset is hardwired into the software.

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rom90125 · Post by **rom90125** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:58 pm

As my gaming moves more and more online, I have found that having PDF's is very essential to the game. it is much easier for me to add content to my game if I can copy/paste from a pdf directly into the custom content (in this case, Fantasy Grounds).

With that said, I have seen illegal PDF copies of WotC books and I would never be interested in these for the very reason I like legal PDF copies...you can't copy/paste text from a scanned page (which is saved as a image file) without running it through OCR software. And I don't know too many people that would be desperate enough to go through all that trouble.
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rom90125 · Post by **rom90125** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:00 pm

Rhuvein wrote:
No, it's part of the program. You need the full host program and then you would buy the C&C rules. Your players would then have to get the lite program and be able to connect to the host and use the rules (for the session only). So the ruleset is hardwired into the software.

Exactly. The source material from the PHB was embedded into the C&C rule set and can only be viewed, in an easy-to-read format, using the FG application.
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Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:33 pm

I've never been a big fan of pdfs, though I know the younger crowd typically is.

I've only purchased pdfs of modules that were hard to come by - Frank Menzter's R-series ring a bell? Otherwise, I really don't have a use for them. Old fashion, I guess. Just rather have the printed, bound product!
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Yeah, I have been aware of a number of people who own pirated PDF's. A couple of them even had themselves convinced it was fine to have them.

So even though I would like to see a PDF I can understand why they don't. Now if TLG ever becomes a multi million dollar company I hope they will change that policy to accomodate those of us who buy legal copies. Until that day I can grudgingly understand and agree with their stance.
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JRR · Post by **JRR** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:12 am

Omote wrote:
I have to agree with rab here JRR. I've read your post, but I'm lost as how you think RPG piracy is a myth. It's a fact, I've seen it with my own two eyes as well as many others here. This in itself would be a loss of profit, or better put, a loss of potential profit. If your point is to say that only potential profit is being lost, then you have to admit that loss of potential profit means less chance for profit. In turn less chance for profit will always directly affect actual profit.

-O

You're right, rpg piracy is not a myth. I mis-spoke. I should have said loss of profit from rpg piracy is a myth. Again, I'll refer you to http://baen.ghostwheel.com/
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JRR · Post by **JRR** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:13 am

rabindranath72 wrote:
Well, I know people who simply downloaded the pdfs from p2p, and never bought the book, using the pdfs from their laptops or printing them. And this IS a loss: they got what they wanted without paying for it.

Maybe, but would they have bought the book if they didn't have the pdf? Some people will take something for free that they would never spend money to have.
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Will your stalwart band choose to Fight, Advance, or Run?