C&C Players Handbook in PDF?

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jamesmishler
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Post by jamesmishler »

JRR wrote:
Maybe, but would they have bought the book if they didn't have the pdf? Some people will take something for free that they would never spend money to have.

And the point is that if they don't spend money on it, they do not have the right to have it.
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Post by rabindranath72 »

JRR wrote:
Maybe, but would they have bought the book if they didn't have the pdf? Some people will take something for free that they would never spend money to have.

I do not know what they would have done, but it is pointless, since ACTUALLY they were playing without owning the books, and this is a theft.

It is safer to look at what happens, not at could have happened.

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Post by Eisenmann »

I've been convinced. Digital media is bad.

And geez, online forums enable communication between people that never would have communicated before. They can exchange email addresses and share stuff. The potential damage is enormous!

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Post by JRR »

jamesmishler wrote:
And the point is that if they don't spend money on it, they do not have the right to have it.

You are absolutely right, and I'm not suggesting they do. I am just saying that little to no profit is lost by it.
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Post by JRR »

rabindranath72 wrote:
I do not know what they would have done, but it is pointless, since ACTUALLY they were playing without owning the books, and this is a theft.

It is safer to look at what happens, not at could have happened.

Another pet peeve of mine. It is NOT a theft. It is copyright infringement and prosecuted as such.
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Post by slimykuotoan »

I thnk people are arguing over the potential 'misuse' of technology, which is not what the original poster intended.

It's akin to responding to a thread posted by a guy who wants to purchase a stove, by citing the various ways in which small animals and children can be killed through the use of heat.
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Post by JRR »

I just want to make it clear that I am not advocating piracy of any kind. My argument is that at worst it doesn't hurt profit margins and at best it actually helps by the free advertising it generates.
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Post by JRR »

slimykuotoan wrote:
I thnk people are arguing over the potential misuse of technology, which is not what the original poster intended.

It's akin to responding to a thread posted by a guy who wants to purchase a stove, by citing the various ways in which small animals and children can be killed through the use of heat.

The best way is to poke a sharp stick through them and roast them over hot coals...

Oh, er, did I say that out loud? Nothing to see here, move along.....
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Post by rabindranath72 »

OK, just to look at how much a loss of profit one might incur, I installed a p2p program (emule) and did a search of "Castles & Crusades". I am not familiar with this kind of software, so possibly my search was not very thorough, but these things are available for free:

1) All the A series pdfs

2) The C&C PHB condensed version

3) The M&T book

4) Some of the Haunted Highlands pdfs

I did not download them to check whether they were scanned or "originals", but from the file sizes I would say that they were the latter.

So, I do not know if ethically this is not "theft". Morally, for sure. Everyone who downloads these things is actually cutting profits from TLG, the moment they download AND use the material.

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Post by Omote »

What I wouldn't do rabby is let people know how to look for these documents. *EEK*

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Post by CharlieRock »

I like real books. That's all I buy.

Some people like e-books. They can get the condensed C&C.

Some companies add little 'e-extras' to their pdfs.

TLG adds little 'real extras' to their books.

No biggie.

P.S. It's not like TLG is e-unfriendly and people NEED to see free pdfs to buy the real books. The Quick-Start Rules have been free on the internet (legally) since FreeRPG Day last year!
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Post by JRR »

rabindranath72 wrote:
Everyone who downloads these things is actually cutting profits from TLG, the moment they download AND use the material.

How? If someone who would NEVER buy a book, downloads it, there is no loss of profit, he wouldn't have given TLG his money anyway. And that's what most of the people who download are like. Collectors who just like to have a hard drive full of crap. I used to do something similar with LEGAL pc game demos. If a demo was available, I downloaded it. But I never bought the game. Most of the time I didn't even play the demo.

And suppose I download the C&C phb. I take it to a 3e game (ug) and show it to several people who have never heard of it. They like it and want a copy. Next week, 6 people have a hard copy from Amazon or their local gaming store. Well, crap, here I am with pages scatterred everywhere, crappy graphical scans, corners folding up, etc. Next week I have a copy just like theirs. Net result, 7 sales just because someone downloaded one copy. Now, suppose these guys show their friends the book and they show their friends.
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Post by Traveller »

They are cutting into potential profits for TLG, not actual, realized profits. Now, in your experience most of the people who download are as you represent, just wanting a hard drive full of crap. The truth of the matter is more insidious in that those who download this stuff will in fact use, give it to friends, or even sell it on ebay! One need only search the RPG section of ebay to find more than a few auctions offering complete runs of d20 Fantasy material on shiny new DVDs.

As for your example, methinks the rose-colored glasses will have to come off. Most people won't bother buying something that they can get for free, and thus will not only get the item in question for free, but will also pass it on to their friends, who will pass it on to their friends, and so on. Since today's society encourages a sense of entitlement, widespread sharing of the rules will discourage most people from making a purchase. After all, it's free and it's right in front of them, so their sense of entitlement kicks in and they rationalize that it's ok to take it.

It's not ok. It's damaging in that it affects how much the company could earn, not how much they actually earn.
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Post by JRR »

I don't wear glasses at all, rose colored or otherwise, I see with eyes wide open. Do some people download a product tht they would otherwise buy? Sure, but they are a minority. Most download it in addition to a product they own, or just download to be part of the scene. And their distribution of a handicapped product can do nothing but promote sales of the real thing. Besides, of all the rpgers I know, I'm the only one who knows what Usenet is, and most probably have never heard of Limewire.
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Post by serleran »

I would say that's mostly untrue, considering the average age of the current gamer (I'd say its something like 15...), and the general technical savvy of those individuals.... Hell, Usenet is still around? Seriously? That's like talking about Gopher or saying you're the third registered mIRC user. There are, literally, hundreds of ways to get things these days: torrents, P2P, FTP, email... blah blah blah. You might not know of specific applications, but you know the technology... or have heard of it. And, its only a click away.

Besides, what "scene" is there in the pdf "black market?" Wow, I gots me a rep for distribbin' some leet warez out my TB HDD, dawg. Come sync'up and I hit you download wit' sum 40G of da' DnD, babee.

Stupid.

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Post by Coleston the Cavalier »

serleran wrote:
Besides, what "scene" is there in the pdf "black market?" Wow, I gots me a rep for distribbin' some leet warez out my TB HDD, dawg. Come sync'up and I hit you download wit' sum 40G of da' DnD, babee.

Serleran, you getting all ethnic on us?
Maybe I missed it, but the C&C Quickstart pdf has a bunch of the rules, if not everything on every class and is FREE and the Castles & Crusades Condensed pdf has even more than the quickstart (even if it is somewhat dated compared to the Quickstart). That's two perfectly legal ways of having most of the essential rules in pdf form. M&T is also offered in a pdf. It seems to me that very little of C&C is not available in pdf form.
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Post by moriarty777 »

Coleston the Cavalier wrote:
Serleran, you getting all ethnic on us?
Maybe I missed it, but the C&C Quickstart pdf has a bunch of the rules, if not everything on every class and is FREE and the Castles & Crusades Condensed pdf has even more than the quickstart (even if it is somewhat dated compared to the Quickstart). That's two perfectly legal ways of having most of the essential rules in pdf form. M&T is also offered in a pdf. It seems to me that very little of C&C is not available in pdf form.

Just for clarification... the Quickstart PDF has levels 1 through 4 for only 4 classes and 3 races. The Condensed offers a couple more classes but is still missing about half of them and also does not include all the races.

However, this does not have to be a bad thing either. I seem to recall Holmes D&D having few classes/races and also limiting level advancement.

Seriously though, the problem is not going to go away nor is it going to get solved anytime soon. I'm kinda surprised this thread is still going but I guess it's been civil enough that it didn't disappear into the nether.

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Post by CharlieRock »

JRR wrote:
How? If someone who would NEVER buy a book, downloads it, there is no loss of profit, he wouldn't have given TLG his money anyway. And that's what most of the people who download are like. Collectors who just like to have a hard drive full of crap. I used to do something similar with LEGAL pc game demos. If a demo was available, I downloaded it. But I never bought the game. Most of the time I didn't even play the demo.

And suppose I download the C&C phb. I take it to a 3e game (ug) and show it to several people who have never heard of it. They like it and want a copy. Next week, 6 people have a hard copy from Amazon or their local gaming store. Well, crap, here I am with pages scatterred everywhere, crappy graphical scans, corners folding up, etc. Next week I have a copy just like theirs. Net result, 7 sales just because someone downloaded one copy. Now, suppose these guys show their friends the book and they show their friends.

See, that's the whole reason the Quick Start Rules have been free on the internet (and totally legal) since at least last year's Free RPG Day.

Not that you don't have a valid point of view. But that base was already covered.
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Post by CharlieRock »

Coleston the Cavalier wrote:
It seems to me that very little of C&C is not available in pdf form.

It can be compared to other RPG companies that give little 'extras' with their pdfs (like Goodman Games). Only in the vice versa. You get a little 'extra' for the real PHB.
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Post by Traveller »

JRR wrote:
I don't wear glasses at all, rose colored or otherwise, I see with eyes wide open. Do some people download a product tht they would otherwise buy? Sure, but they are a minority. Most download it in addition to a product they own, or just download to be part of the scene. And their distribution of a handicapped product can do nothing but promote sales of the real thing.

What scene? RPGs are a niche market at best. If they really wanted to be part of a scene they'd be offering software, music, or movies. Honestly, you're being naive.
JRR wrote:
Besides, of all the rpgers I know, I'm the only one who knows what Usenet is, and most probably have never heard of Limewire.

It's good you don't know me, or I'd disprove that statement in a heartbeat.
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Post by Akrasia »

The claim that offering pdfs of core rulebooks is damaging for a RPG company's profits seems falsified by the fact that almost every RPG company (including smaller ones) does this. TLG is the exception here.

Obviously, they are free to choose to continue to be the odd man out in the current market. But I doubt very much that they are reaping massive profits from not offering a pdf version of their core rules that, say, Green Ronin is missing out on by offering a pdf version of True20. That just seems absurd.
jamesmishler wrote:
And the point is that if they don't spend money on it, they do not have the right to have it.

That's certainly true.

As a publisher, I think that when it comes to pdfs the decision is: (a) offer a pdf version of your product and accept that some people will get it without paying for it, but enjoy greater profits overall; or (b) do not offer a pdf version of your product in order to prevent (to some extent) people from getting it without paying for it, but receive smaller profits overall (since you'll be losing sales from people who either want both the pdf and hardcopy, or only the pdf).

Either option is rational, I guess, but if I were a publisher, I'd go with (a).
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Post by CharlieRock »

Akrasia wrote:
The claim that offering pdfs of core rulebooks is damaging for a RPG company's profits seems falsified by the fact that almost every RPG company (including smaller ones) does this. TLG is the exception here.

Dude, your just being purposefully obtuse. There is a pdf of the core rulebooks. It has everything you need, plus some, to play the game. That is the definition of a pdf rulebook. It's in pdf. you can use it (all by itself) to play a complete game of C&C.

Now, if you get the real book you get extra.

See?

Not required. Not being absent in the class of PDFable RPGs. Just a little gravy in the real book.

Edit: It's like a car dealer that sells Toyota and Chevy. He wants to entice people to buy the yotas so he offers cash back (or something). And here you come along telling him he isn't meeting market demand because he is refusing to sell chevys to people that want the chevys. When in fact he does, he just sells extra goodies with the yotas. That's all. If you want the chevy, get it. If you want the extras , you gotta get the yota. Simple (except to some people).
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Post by Akrasia »

CharlieRock wrote:
...

Dude, your just being purposefully obtuse.

No I'm not.
CharlieRock wrote:
...

There is a pdf of the core rulebooks. It has everything you need, plus some, to play the game. That is the definition of a pdf rulebook. It's in pdf. you can use it (all by itself) to play a complete game of C&C.

The complete core rulebook (PHB) is not available in PDF. In contrast, most other RPG companies do offer the complete core rulebook in PDF.

It's not a difficult thing to understand. You can try to obscure the issue all you want by describing the material not included in the PDF as 'gravy' or whatever.

The simple fact of the matter is that the complete core C&C rulebook is not available in PDF.
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Post by CharlieRock »

Akrasia wrote:
The simple fact of the matter is that the complete core C&C rulebook is not available in PDF.

Yes it is. If by complete you mean that you have everything needed to play a full campaign.

If by complete you mean every single piece of the game including extra classes and races then no and the reason for that is plain and simple. It's called manufacturer incentives.

It by no means (except in your exclusive definition) makes the pdf a incomplete rulebook. Because really that is what your saying. That the pdf is 'incomplete'. But in order for it to truly be incomplete you need to be unable to play the game. As you can play the game (and an entire campaign from level one to infinity) then the rules presented are complete.
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Post by Coleston the Cavalier »

moriarty777 wrote:
I'm kinda surprised this thread is still going but I guess it's been civil enough that it didn't disappear into the nether.
Well, I've posted in it now, so things should go down hill pretty quick.

Honesty, I understand what you guys are saying about wanting a pdf of the Players Handbook. I guess I was just surprised that we have more available in pdf than I had realized.

I really don't have a horse in this race. I hope I didn't rattle anybodies feathers.
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Post by Akrasia »

CharlieRock wrote:
...

It by no means (except in your exclusive definition) makes the pdf a incomplete rulebook. Because really that is what your saying. That the pdf is 'incomplete'....

My definition is hardly 'exclusive'. And 'C&C Condensed' is 'incomplete'. It doesn't include everything that the PHB does. It's that simple. Yes, you could run a campaign with the Condensed PDF alone (or, hell, the free 'Quick Start' rules). That doesn't change the fact that TLG -- unlike most other RPG companies -- does not offer the complete core rulebook in PDF.

One of the reasons why people like myself like PDFs is that it provides them with a convenient, travel-friendly version of all the rules that they use in their games (including those rules in the PHB that aren't 'absolutely essential' for every campaign.)

As I've said many times already, most other RPG companies offer their complete core rulebooks in PDF. And by 'complete' I mean 'everything in the paper version'. Are you trying to dispute this?

I don't see the point in continuing this debate. My point is really simple. Unlike most other RPG companies, TLG does not offer the complete version of the core rulebook in PDF. IF it were really financially disadvantageous to do so, however, then all of these other RPG companies would not differ from TLG on this. But since they do -- and have been doing so for many years now -- I very much doubt the claims that people have been making in this thread that it would be a financially unwise decision for TLG to offer the PHB in PDF.
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Post by CharlieRock »

Akrasia wrote:
I don't see the point in continuing this debate. My point is really simple. Unlike most other RPG companies, TLG does not offer the complete version of the core rulebook in PDF. IF it were really financially disadvantageous to do so, however, then all of these other RPG companies would not differ from TLG on this. But since they do -- and have been doing so for many years now -- I very much doubt the claims that people have been making in this thread that it would be a financially unwise decision for TLG to offer the PHB in PDF.

Other companies (like Goodman Games) offer extra chapters for their pdf versions. Does that mean that the real versions of their books are incomplete?

TLG just does the same thing, vice versa.
Quote:
As I've said many times already, most other RPG companies offer their complete core rulebooks in PDF. And by 'complete' I mean 'everything in the paper version'. Are you trying to dispute this?

No, I've already said that the extra parts in the real books are extras just for the real books. That is TLGs incentive to support the real book sales. Real books sitting in real stores where real people bump into each other and talk about their gaming.

It doesn't put out the pdf customers because you can still get all that you need to play a game in the e-books. It doesn't put out the people that want to preview it on their computer because the Quick Start rules are right there and free. And it only puts out you because you can't let go of the idea that all the extra pieces are "missing" from your files.
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Post by Akrasia »

Look, Charlie Rock, I'll try one last time:
Most RPG companies provide the complete version of their core rulebook in PDF. The complete version. Everything that is in the paper version. Not some subsection that is deemed 'essential'.
Comprendez-vous?

The 'condensed C&C' rules is not the complete version of the PHB. And, frankly, your suggestion that the rules in the PHB that are not included in 'condensed C&C' are 'gravy' or 'bonuses' is rubbish. They aren't presented that way in the PHB, and most readers would (quite sensibly) not interpret the illusionist, bard, half-elf, and so forth, as mere 'gravy' or 'bonuses'.

Many people -- not just me -- like having the complete version of their core rulebooks in PDF. Obviously there is a demand for this, since most other RPG companies provide their complete core rulebooks in PDF.
Most RPG players and RPG companies don't share your rather unusual and implausible definition of what it is to provide the core rulebook in PDF.

I've wasted enough time on what should be an obvious point. If you don't understand my point by now, I'm afraid that you never will.
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Post by Troll Lord »

Greetings All,

Perhaps I can shed some light on why we have not released the full version of the PH in PDF format.

Akrasia is correct in stating that almost all other RPG companies (I say almost, because I've in no way researched the scores of RPG companies out there) have released the rule books in PDF format. There are several reasons for this:

1) Some believe it doesn't impact the sales of printed books at all.

This may be true, though gathering empirical evidence for it is almost impossible. It is difficult to ascertain as to whether releasing a product in pdf causes a decline in sales of a particular item because once its out there in pdf, you don't know what impact it has on hard sales because you can't compare the two. Of course you can compare it to another product of the same genre. And though not entirely accurate it can give you some idea. Off of this sales data most publishers have released pdfs of their products.

2) Some companies release in pdf because sales of the print copies are low and they are looking to cultivate another revenue stream.

This is certainly helpful. The revenue generated by pdf sales, though not as great as print products sales has yielded a nice crop. And I suspect that TLG is only tapping the market, not taking advantage of the potential.

3) Some believe it augments sales. If I sell one pdf it generates a hardcopy sell.

This is out there, as there is NO evidence to support this other than internet hearsay. And the internet is notoriously structured to give the loud minority a voice. Publishers who read three customers say "I did this so blab blah blah" often over react, thinking they have a market trend. Not unlike polls on the nation scene.

4) Some believe the directly hurt sales. I've heard one estimate from one of the FEW people on the inside track of sales data in this industry remark categorically that one pdf sale costs (if I remember correctly) five hard copy sales.

Could be. Don't know. I never got to sit down and discuss it with him. Not sure I buy that though

This I know, there is no data. None. Anyone who speaks as a voice of authority is going off of assumptions he's made after carefully considering his hunches.
Where I part with you Akrasia is when you compare TLG to other companies. Set aside the fact that we are vastly superior to any other company on the face of the earth...and by that I mean we like beer more than any other company...but its like the old metaphor of comparing apples to oranges. Every company has different targets, backgrounds, products, layouts, price points, ways to measure success, business models etc etc So saying that because X company has their rules system out and it hasn't hurt sales so TLG can do it, doesn't work with me. X company may have a bigger or smaller market share than me and need to do that or can afford to do that etc etc etc etc

So the questions are two. One I don't have to answer, but will, the other I owe it to you guys to answer, but won't > Just kidding I will hahaahah (I'm in rare form today).

1) Why has the PH not been released in its full form?

It is my firm belief that maintaining a presence in RETAIL shops gets C&C more exposure than the electronic market does. I base this off of simple observations. Go to RPGNow and look over the front page and find Troll Lord Games. You can't. You can for about 5 hours after I release a product but then it is pushed off. You can search for TLG, you can follow the Product or company function keys etc. But there is no shelf space when you enter the store. When a retailer displays a TLG book in his store it generally stays on the shelf, getting exposure (maybe not sales) but exposure so long as that book is there.

The more it sells the more retailers and distributors push it as it becomes a revenue generating product for them. This can become very big (literally as I'm typing my consolidator just hollered at me about a 2K sale (retail) from a distributor. We've been working this angle for about a week. And it netted a nice profit for us.

The more books sell on RPGnow, well, the more they sale. Its much like the direct to consumer sales. By and large about 60% of our direct sales are to the same people. PDFs are about the same (it actually used to be easy to track, not so easy now).

Meaning to say that sales in PDF don't seem to generate growth, whereas sales in the print market do.

This is just my observations of course.

Also, I've used the lack of PH pdf as a marketing point with retailers at GTS and other shows I've run into them. By telling them that the PH is NOT available in PDF they get very happy. Now, does this influence their buying patterns? No way of knowing. It probably does with one of my favorite retailers Marcus King at Titan Games, but otherwise its hard to say.

2) When, if ever, is TLG going to release the full version of the PH?

We are and soon. I had planned on doing it on the first of January but various and sundry things got in my way. I will probably do it on the 1st of March.

Given my babble from above? Why? What's changed?

Well, we are easing toward a 4th printing. The fourth printing will have some noticeable additions to it, making a hard cover as usable/desirable as PDFs (we think). It will probably have a different look as well. Though it will in NO WAY offer new rules, mechanics etc etc. It will be the exact same game (how's that for a teaser).

But also, if my argument above is true, and generally the same people who are buying pdfs are repeat pdf costumers they are probably not having any noticeable impact on my print sales. Its taken me a while to become comfortable with this notion and I'm still not to be honest. But given the fact the 3rd printing has been out for awhile, the MT is out as PDF and the the 4th printing is coming down the pipe it is about time.

Hope that helps.

Steve
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Steve Chenault, President & CEO of Chenault & Gray Publishing, Troll Lord Games

CharlieRock
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Post by CharlieRock »

Akrasia wrote:
Most RPG players and RPG companies don't share your rather unusual and implausible definition of what it is to provide the core rulebook in PDF.

And I could build a case that these "most" companies are inattentive to whether their sales come from real books or e-books and thus are not in partnership with brick and mortar gameshops therefore by some degree less desireable to clientele such as myself for my primary RPG patronage.
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