C&C Players Handbook in PDF?

[Traveller]

Akrasia wrote:
As a publisher, I think that when it comes to pdfs the decision is: (a) offer a pdf version of your product and accept that some people will get it without paying for it, but enjoy greater profits overall; or (b) do not offer a pdf version of your product in order to prevent (to some extent) people from getting it without paying for it, but receive smaller profits overall (since you'll be losing sales from people who either want both the pdf and hardcopy, or only the pdf).

Either option is rational, I guess, but if I were a publisher, I'd go with (a).

And really, the decision has been made, as you already realize. The Trolls would prefer that prospective players who want all the options of the PHB actually buy a PHB, not an electronic document that will end up being given to all the buyer's friends. Thus the condensed rules PDF is deliberately made as a less desirable option (until the 4th edition rulebook is released, according to the top dog on page 6 of this thread). The problem is that there are unscrupulous people out there who have bought the rulebook and scanned the entire contents into their computers to share on p2p networks.

The condensed rules PDF is a complete game, just like the Hero System Sidekick is a complete game. Neither book has all the options available in the full rulebook, yet both are perfectly playable as is. So, just because TLG refuses to offer the core rulebook in PDF doesn't mean that what they DO offer in PDF isn't a complete game. Any such statement to the contrary is disingenuous.

While it's interesting to theorize what we would do if we were publishers, unless we have experience in being publishers, our theories are without basis.
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[serleran]

Neat, a 4th printing. C&C is doing better than I thought. Now, kick-start those M&T sales! Do it for serleran.

[Omote]

Well I'm glad this argument for TLG is finally solved from the big man himself. NOW on to the REAL NEWS... 4th printing... whoo hoo! I am very interested in hearing about the layout changes (other then the few hints that PB dropped a few weeks ago or so).

Bring on the 4th Print!

-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Coleston the Cavalier]

Man, I didn't even see Steve's post.

I makes sense to me.

Thanks for being so open, Steve and congrats on the big sale.
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John Adams

[Akrasia]

Traveller wrote:
... And really, the decision has been made, as you already realize.

Yes, the right one, namely, a PDF version of the complete PHB will be available (although not as soon as I would like it).

Traveller wrote:
...

The problem is that there are unscrupulous people out there who have bought the rulebook and scanned the entire contents into their computers to share on p2p networks.

SO because of alleged 'unscrupulous people out there', other, honest consumers should be put at a disadvantage? Um, that's great.

Traveller wrote:
...

So, just because TLG refuses to offer the core rulebook in PDF doesn't mean that what they DO offer in PDF isn't a complete game. Any such statement to the contrary is disingenuous.

I never claimed that 'Condensed C&C' wasn't a 'complete' (albeit truncated) game. However, it is not the complete PHB. That's always been my point.

How many times do I have to say the same thing, in plain English? Sheesh.

Traveller wrote:
...

While it's interesting to theorize what we would do if we were publishers, unless we have experience in being publishers, our theories are without basis.

I don't know what you're talking about. All I've done is point to the actual practices of other companies -- many of them quite successful! That seems to be an adequate basis for pointing out that PDFs of core rulebooks are not financially ruinous.

Honestly, I don't understand the point of your post. You didn't raise any new points, or even address my core claim. (Which of course raises the question ... why did I bother to respond? )
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[moriarty777]

ACK! A 4th printing? Already??

Damn it... with layout changes and other key errata, it sounds like it's an printing I'll want to have!

How close are we to selling out of the 2nd print run of the M&T? I'll probably have to get a new printing of that to better match the 4th print of the PHB.

M
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[Akrasia]

Thanks for your informative post, Steve.

Troll Lord wrote:
...

Where I part with you Akrasia is when you compare TLG to other companies. Set aside the fact that we are vastly superior to any other company on the face of the earth...and by that I mean we like beer more than any other company....

Troll Lord wrote:
...

It is my firm belief that maintaining a presence in RETAIL shops gets C&C more exposure than the electronic market does...

Fair enough. And TLG's support for brick-and-mortar shops is commendable.

However, it is important to note that TLG's products do not seem to appear in all -- or even most -- retail shops. I've never seen any C&C product in any of the three RPG shops in Dublin (and I've inquired about this, to no avail). When I'm in Toronto, only the 'Hairy Tarantula' seems to carry TLG's stuff (and it's not that visible, unfortunately).

Living in Ireland, I don't have the luxury of perusing the latest C&C product in my FLGS. For new products, I generally have to 'buy blind'. Since, for any product I actually use, I like to have both a hard copy and PDF, purchasing the PDF first is a lower risk way of checking out new products.

In short, while TLG's support for retail shops is great, the fact of the matter is that many gamers across the world -- many of whom would like to support TLG -- don't have access to FLGSs that carry TLG products.

Troll Lord wrote:
...literally as I'm typing my consolidator just hollered at me about a 2K sale (retail) from a distributor. We've been working this angle for about a week. And it netted a nice profit for us...

Congratulations!
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[serleran]

M&T, as far as I can tell (without any sales figures, mind you) is that they sell at about 25% that of the PHB, which is just about right. I, obviously, wish it was a higher rate.

[Omote]

Akrasia wrote:
Fair enough. And TLG's support for brick-and-mortar shops is commendable.

However, it is important to note that TLG's products do not seem to appear in all -- or even most -- retail shops. I've never seen any C&C product in any of the three RPG shops in Dublin (and I've inquired about this, to no avail). When I'm in Toronto, only the 'Hairy Tarantula' seems to carry TLG's stuff (and it's not that visible, unfortunately).

Living in Ireland, I don't have the luxury of perusing the latest C&C product in my FLGS. For new products, I generally have to 'buy blind'. Since, for any product I actually use, I like to have both a hard copy and PDF, purchasing the PDF first is a lower risk way of checking out new products.

In short, while TLG's support for retail shops is great, the fact of the matter is that many gamers across the world -- many of whom would like to support TLG -- don't have access to FLGSs that carry TLG products.

Here's another fact, TLG is a smaller United States company. It should clear to you that it is harder to see print copies of TLGs fine products in stores in other parts of the world. It seems as if you are sour that you live in Ireland and are mad that the products don't come to you. Unfortunately, being a smaller company with only 3 full time workers it's hard to promote to every distributer and especially hard to promote to distributers outside the US. Make sure your problems with the lack of a PHB .pdf is not actually your problem with the availability of great US-born RPG products in your area.

Just sayin'.

-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[CharlieRock]

Akrasia wrote:
SO because of alleged 'unscrupulous people out there', other, honest consumers should be put at a disadvantage? Um, that's great.

Ah, man! That's just life. It's like that with lots of things. You can't even rent stuff without full background checks and three kinds of ID (potential hassle to honest folks).

P.S. Also, this quote would definitely not fly if you meant gun sales instead of books. LoL
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[Troll Lord]

Akrasia wrote:
Thanks for your informative post, Steve.


Fair enough. And TLG's support for brick-and-mortar shops is commendable.

This is a common mis underdtanding. Though it is support for Brick and Mortar stores, its vital support for TLG. Our presence there is FREE advertising and advertising that drives actual sales.

Akrasia wrote:
However, it is important to note that TLG's products do not seem to appear in all -- or even most -- retail shops. I've never seen any C&C product in any of the three RPG shops in Dublin (and I've inquired about this, to no avail). When I'm in Toronto, only the 'Hairy Tarantula' seems to carry TLG's stuff (and it's not that visible, unfortunately).

Living in Ireland, I don't have the luxury of perusing the latest C&C product in my FLGS. For new products, I generally have to 'buy blind'. Since, for any product I actually use, I like to have both a hard copy and PDF, purchasing the PDF first is a lower risk way of checking out new products.

In short, while TLG's support for retail shops is great, the fact of the matter is that many gamers across the world -- many of whom would like to support TLG -- don't have access to FLGSs that carry TLG products.

That of course is the conundrum. If we release the book as PDF and the few customers we have over seas buy it, they won't ever pressure their local shops to carry the hard back.
But we can argue this point all day, as its all opinion, with no real sales data to back anything up.
The PH should be out soon.

Thanks!

STeve
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[Akrasia]

Omote wrote:
... It seems as if you are sour that you live in Ireland and are mad that the products don't come to you...

No. My point is simply that the availability of PDFs helps mitigate the fact that many good RPG products (US-made or otherwise) are not available in retail stores everywhere (yes, even in the US).

PDFs can help give even a small company a global reach. And, like many consumers, if I really like a PDF, I'm willing to invest the money to have a paper copy (including shipping, etc.). On the other hand, if a PDF is not available, there's no way I'd invest blindly in the paper copy.
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[Akrasia]

Omote wrote:
... It seems as if you are sour that you live in Ireland ...

Also, no sane person would be 'sour' to live in Ireland!
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[JRR]

Akrasia wrote:
However, it is important to note that TLG's products do not seem to appear in all -- or even most -- retail shops. I've never seen any C&C product in any of the three RPG shops in Dublin (and I've inquired about this, to no avail). When I'm in Toronto, only the 'Hairy Tarantula' seems to carry TLG's stuff (and it's not that visible, unfortunately).

I live in the US, and I've seen ONE copy of the PHB in s local gaming store. None of M&T, and I think I saw Assault on Blacktooth Ridge. since those sold, I haven't seen a single C&C product anywhere. The fact is, in the real world, very few people have even heard of C&C. It's a different matter online, of course, and maybe that's where TLG should male their presence felt. Either that or storm rpg stores and beat the managers over the head with copies of the CKG.....
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[Fat Dragon Games]

Troll Lord wrote:
Set aside the fact that we are vastly superior to any other company on the face of the earth...and by that I mean we like beer more than any other company...

You've obviously never seen the FDG crew at the Ram after exhibiting hours during Gen Con.
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Castles & Crusades...more D&D than D&D.

[moriarty777]

JRR wrote:
I live in the US, and I've seen ONE copy of the PHB in s local gaming store. None of M&T, and I think I saw Assault on Blacktooth Ridge. since those sold, I haven't seen a single C&C product anywhere. The fact is, in the real world, very few people have even heard of C&C. It's a different matter online, of course, and maybe that's where TLG should male their presence felt. Either that or storm rpg stores and beat the managers over the head with copies of the CKG.....

I guess it just depends where you are. In Ottawa (Canada), there is a store called Fandom II and, despite the game being tucked away compared to the more prominent D&D and other d20 material, I have seen *MANY* Player's Handbooks go through there (they kept on selling out and having to order more). Same thing goes for the M&T and I've seen most of the C&C line of modules there at one point or another. Same goes with the CK Screen.

Since I've moved, the two gaming stores I frequent the most in Montreal also carry C&C material though one has the books more visible than the other. Unfortunately, they don't seem to move as much (I've not seen the 3rd print PHB in stock... just remnants of the 2nd print).

M
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[serleran]

I've seen C&C in every game store I've been in, and if I didn't, I asked them why it wasn't there, and then, based on their answer, either kicked their teeth in, or had Steve call them.

[Tadhg]

Very interesting post from Steve. Lots of food for thought in addition to all the other posts here. Certainly a complex issue as the stats are hard to gather - how many illegal PDFs have actually taken sales away from the print book?

I'm thinking back to the early days of computer games software. Very easy to copy and give to a friend. My buddy gave me tons of stuff. But I treated it as a demo or preview. If the game was good I went and bought it, so I could support the company and get the documentation.

I do the same today. If I find or get PDFs of RPG stuff and I like it, I then go and buy the PDF or get the print book. If I don't care for the product then the PDF sits on my hard drive and I never buy the print book ~ so no lost sales.

Anywho, glad to hear of the impending 4th print!!

Well done, Trolls!!

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[Harry Joy]

JRR wrote:
I live in the US, and I've seen ONE copy of the PHB in s local gaming store. None of M&T, and I think I saw Assault on Blacktooth Ridge. since those sold, I haven't seen a single C&C product anywhere.

I hate to say this, because I love Castles & Crusades, and I like my primary FLGS, and my town has two, but only my primary FLGS carries any C&C products and rarely orders more than one of each new release. They just don't sell. Almost every sale that I can recall being made of the PHB in the last year or so was because someone in my game group bought it. And there are many releases that have never made it to the shelves there, such as Monsters & Treasures. I ended up ordering mine from NKG. Quite often, when I try to special order something from the FLGS, such as Crusader, their distributer does not stock it. Very frustrating overall. Most of my personal "inventory" of C&C materials has either come straight from TLs or NKG.

That aside, folks around here certainly know of Castles & Crusades. All the gamers I've talked to have at least heard of it. But sometimes, I think that the "Western Tennessee Gnome Liberation League" comprises the entire Castles & Crusades gaming population of both Memphis and Jackson, Tennessee.

[Omote]

Yes but C&C books on the shelf is advertising for the game. Now, if the same books are there for 2 years, well then there might be a problem.

-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[CharlieRock]

My FLGS was having trouble with their distributer getting C&C stuff. Joe Goodman caught me whining on his forums about it and fixed it (and our "DCC problem", too).
I dunno what he did but the next week I was at the gameshop the owner gave me a set of dice and told me I could always find C&C stuff there now. Apparently there were a lot of people asking and waiting for C&C (mostly for the M&T).
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[Geleg]

I hesitate to add anything to an already volatile conversation, but I would also point out that I live in a 250,000 person city without any game stores, friendly or otherwise. The closest one is an hour away. So the advertising angle (which I understand and commend) touted by the Trolls is completely absent in my good sized city. Since there is no LGS to walk into, there is no way for non-internet savvy folks to learn about the greatness that is C&C.

I recognize that this has nothing to do with debates over pdfs of the PH, and that it is only one (slightly bitter!) anecdote, but I hope the Trolls realize that in this day and age it may not be wise to assume that all who are interested in rpgs either a) have access to a FLGS or b) are willing to drive substantial distances to locate one. But I'm sure they are well aware of this.

Fortunately for me, I have no problems ordering direct from Troll Central.

[gideon_thorne]

Geleg wrote:
I hesitate to add anything to an already volatile conversation, but I would also point out that I live in a 250,000 person city without any game stores, friendly or otherwise. The closest one is an hour away. So the advertising angle (which I understand and commend) touted by the Trolls is completely absent in my good sized city. Since there is no LGS to walk into, there is no way for non-internet savvy folks to learn about the greatness that is C&C.

Barns and Noble, Borders, Hastings, Waldenbooks and so forth also carry the TLG line or can order it in.
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Peter Bradley

[Geleg]

neither our Borders nor our Barnes and Noble carries TLG products

And my point is really a comment about walk-in advertising. If I have to order a book, this means there was no store display to catch my eye or tempt me with a new-to-me product. Sure, I could order TLG from either megabookstore, but I'd have to have pre-existing knowledge of its existence and a desire to buy it. And if that's the case, then I might as well do it direct from the Trolls. So I'm not sure that the possibility of ordering something is a good response to my initial point, which is that on a basic level free advertising in FLGs cannot work in locations (even large-ish ones) that have no FLGs.

Mind you, I'm not upset with TLG. I think they have a good official web presence, and a great fan base which talks up the product in numerous gamer fora. But I am not in need of conversion, and I do frequent rpg sites. But the elusive gamer who's never heard of TLG and does not hang out on ENworld or NG or somesuch place (let alone the TLG site) won't be helped by a marketing strategy that emphasizes presence in FLGs in a market where the FLGS have died out.

Of course, I will freely admit that hypothetical gamers of this sort will also not be assisted by the presence or absence of Pdfs of the ruleset - given this, I recognize that my comments are slightly askew of topic. In the sort of market that I'm describing, it's hard to know how to reach such gamers - they've got to be enough dissatisfied with 3e or whatever to poke around online to find alternatives.

In some ways my post really is simply a whiney complaint about the absence of any LGS in the Triad!

[Harry Joy]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Barns and Noble, Borders, Hastings, Waldenbooks and so forth also carry the TLG line or can order it in.

Memphis has two B&Ns, neither stocks C&C. Memphis has one Borders. It doesn't either. Memphis has a brand spanking new Hastings - checked it out for the first time last week. It doesn't stock C&C. Memphis has Waldenbooks, but that means going to a mall, and I haven't set foot in mall in years, so I don't know what they have.

[gideon_thorne]

Harry Joy wrote:
Memphis has two B&Ns, neither stocks C&C. Memphis has one Borders. It doesn't either. Memphis has a brand spanking new Hastings - checked it out for the first time last week. It doesn't stock C&C. Memphis has Waldenbooks, but that means going to a mall, and I haven't set foot in mall in years, so I don't know what they have.

All of them go through either Alliance or Diamond, which means, if the books are not on the shelves, they can order it. The more folks order through those places, the more likely that particular branch will continue to stock it.
I know this because thats how the local branches in tulsa started carrying the line.
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Peter Bradley

[serleran]

Which begs the question, Peter, if they are not being carried, how is one to know to order it, if one does not even know it exists because it is not being carried? Its a vicious cycle only Fat Bastard can break.

This, my friends, is why the Trolls do so many con appearances all over, and why they need you to, as well... to promote the game to as many people in as many places as possible.

[moriarty777]

serleran wrote:
This, my friends, is why the Trolls do so many con appearances all over, and why they need you to, as well... to promote the game to as many people in as many places as possible.

And this is why I will 'shout' out, once more:

TROLL CON EAST !!

I'm hoping if I do that long enough, it'll finally come to pass!
M
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[Zudrak]

moriarty777 wrote:
And this is why I will 'shout' out, once more:
TROLL CON EAST !!

I'm hoping if I do that long enough, it'll finally come to pass!
M

Seconded! Or else I will have to wait until about 2010 when I get 2 weeks' vacation to do LGGC.
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[serleran]

Anyone any good at organizing said event? I'm all for it, people. I promise it'll happen... I just can't say when ('cause I have no clue.)