Where I been, what I been doin...

[Zudrak]

Bowbe wrote:
Steve and I talked this over at length and really here is the deal.

Constant invention of new character classes is AWESOME... for your game and for message boards, and occassionally the Keeper.

What it isn't good for is entry level gamers, marketing, and keeping your booksellers/distributors happy. Why? Because when you start piling in new character classes of every stripe you start dilluting the Archetypes so much you end up with 4th edition D&D and not the type and style of market that we are really shooting to preserve and enhance.

I had a really awesome kick ass necromancer class... but at the end of the day what good was it by itself?

Steve struck on a really really good suggestion. Instead of creating a "Necromancer" why not anylize what a necromancer is: A spellcaster that has dealing with the Undead or a fascination with the life and death continuum.

Why not generate powers and abilities open to any spellcasting class that suit a necromancer. This way you preserve the archtypes, offer variations and depth to the way that they are currently played, and give them new powers they can sub out, trade for, or buy.

If the focus afterall is supposed to be on literary style role play why not give some tools that re-inforce that rather than pidgeon hole a "Necromancer" into its own awesome but campaign limited class?

Steve's a pretty smart guy. Ocassionally he gives me money. I like that and tend to listen to what he says!

I liked where he was going with the idea so thats what I did and it made getting the book finished about a million times easier. I didn't offer too many necromancer "powers" because the spells are so pimped. Instead I gave a few that offer a guideline to expand or generate new powers based on the flavor and feel of your home game.

And when I say spellcaster classes here... I mean all of em. Archtypes are groovy, they give me a tingle
I may be totally wrong, but I think this really works well and hey... it also doesn't piss off booksellers who fear a bajillion "splatbooks" that will sit on their shelf forever... like 3.0 and 3.5 and 2e stuff we see.

Thanks for reading my ramble!

Case

Hey, Case,

I agree with you. I think it was for this reason that there were so many "NPC Classes" in 1e AD&D. EGG & Co. knew that too many classes dilutes the archetypes, as you stated. There was a reason why a PC couldn't be a Death Master, for instance, but you could throw them at the players in a game. Why? To keep them on their toes, of course.
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AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

[Matthew]

moriarty777 wrote:
Where does one draw the line? I think AD&D 2nd Edition initially had a good notion when it came to classes. There were fewer classes, but they introduced the concepts of kits. These were at first great, but it quickly became a money grab.

Indeed. The problem with Kits, for me, was that they tended to mechanically define what it meant to be 'X' in very specific ways, instead of presenting options for modelling the concept of X. I had a love/hate affair with Kits. I enjoyed reading about them, but never really ever seemed to have any reason to use them. There were some minor exceptions, such as the Bard Class Skald Kit or the Thief Class Scout Kit, but they usually either didn't quite do what we wanted them to do or didn't offer enough reason to not use the basic Class.

These days, If a Player wants to play something other than a Fighter, Cleric, Thief or Mage, then I tend to custom build a Class to suit their concept.
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It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

[jfall]

Bowbe wrote:
I like how the assassin in assassins creed works. He can fight, he can hide, he can climb, he can jump, and he has lots of nasty uber deadly weapons. He also performs most of his kills in public as "statement murders".

(Didnt care for the sci fi angle on that game tho)

I wonder how we could re-imagine the assassin class to reflect that. For now a "city" version of a ranger seems to be the better choice vs. the staple weakling "rogue based" assassin thats been around for 30 years.

Case

Hey Case,

I so very much agree with you on this... We're starting up a game this spring and I am absolutely going to suggest that the Assassin class have traits and abilities that allow them to mimic the Assassin from Assassin's Creed.

Off the top of my head I might do something like this:

HD: d8

BtH: per cleric

Armors: keep it the same (or maybe cut it back a bit...)

Weapons: Same

Abilities:

Blend: Ability to conceal oneself in a crowd.

Hidden Weapon: Ability to conceal a weapon of small size.

Flourishing Strike: Upon death blow all w/in 10' must save v. petrification or be "stunned" for one round.

Acrobatic escape: Ability to use terrain to escape. 1/2 move up wall of 15' or less w/ out climbing. Run across narrow spaces 25' or less. Heroic leaps of 25' or less and land running... etc.

Keep insta-kill ability but change it a bit... either cut down observation time to 1 rnd. OR allow observation to happen while in combat w/ opponent.

Spot Enemies: Ability to pick out hidden enemies. (Crowds, hiding, etc.)

Poison? I'm not sure about this one...

Again....this is quite literally off the top of my head. I haven't figured out level progression or EPP or any of that stuff... just fodder for conversation.
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`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves

Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:

All mimsy were the borogoves,

And the mome raths outgrabe.'

Lewis Carroll

[Nothing]

Check out the pdf preview on RPGNOW, there's a couple pages on the Necromancer.

[Shenron]

Cool, I like how they get bonus spells at the cost of extra XP, that is cool.

I also like the penalty the the Charisma check for learning dark ways, I did not like the kept increasing penalty for their other "class" abilities.

I may need to create two different Necomancers. A variation of the Wizard, and a more Animator style like Diablo once I get the book.
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Mongol General: "Conan! What is best in life?"

Conan: "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women."

[Lord Dynel]

I'm a use-old-AD&D-stuff-for-C&C wh*re, but if you don't like the necromancer from BL, I would suggest taking a look at Complete Book of Necromancer's.

The necromancer from BL is pretty much an offshoot of a wizard that pays for access to the necromancy spells in the book by paying XP. There are also a few abilities what also cost XP. It's an interesting take, but probably not what you're looking for. The CBoN is rife with new spells, reolplaying sugestions, and tons of crunch and fluff for the necromancer class.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[Shenron]

Ya, I do not have the Complete Necromancer Book Either ugh... I have some ideas...

The book would be good with spells but ya, I agree with you, from what I read it is not what I am looking for but a good start.

There will be two versions.
_________________
Mongol General: "Conan! What is best in life?"

Conan: "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women."

[Shenron]

Here is my "Toolbox" Necromancer that is basically based on the one from the Black Tomb and the basic Wizard, who concentrates on spellcasting.

ABILITIES:

Spells: A Necromancer casts arcane spells. Necromancer can only cast a limited number of spells per day, from each spell level , per day. A Necromancer prepares and castes spells in the same manner as a wizard. Necromancers are the only ones that gain access to Necromantic spells, the Necromancer must replace half of the usual spells options with these spells where applicable.

Bonus Spells: With a high Intelligence score, the Necromancer gains bonus spells. At Intelligence between 13-15, they can memorize an extra 1st level spell. At Intelligence 16-17, they can memorize an extra 2nd level spell. At 18 or 19, they can memorize an extra 3rd level spell.

Taint of Death: The dealings with the underworld and constant presence of death leaves its taint upon the Necromancer, plus their reputation does not help. This may not be a visible taint but most sane people are very uncomfortable being around or dealing with a Necromancer. They suffer a -2 penalty on all CHAR checks when dealing with people they do not know, people more then one stepped removed from their alignment, and people that are not apart of their occult circles, etc.

Blessed of Nartarus: Spending time with the undead does have its benefits, they gain a +1 bonus to resist all special attacks from undead creatures. This increases to +2 at 4th level, +3 at 8th level, +4 at 12th level, and so on.

Command Undead: Clerics who worship Nartarus gain this power for free. Otherwise this ability is the same as an evil clerics power to control undead as part of the turn ability detailed in the Castles and Crusades Players Handbooks.

Level HD BtH EPP

1 d4 0 0

2 d4 +1 2,601

3 d4 +1 5,201

4 d4 +1 10,401

5 d4 +1 20,801

6 d4 +2 42,501

7 d4 +2 85,001

8 d4 +2 170,001

9 d4 +2 340,001

10 d4 +3 500,001

11 +1 HP +3 750,001

12 +1 HP +3 1,000,001

13+

Necromancer Spells per Day

Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th

1 4 2

2 4 3

3 4 3 1

4 4 3 2

5 5 4 2 1

6 5 4 3 2

7 5 4 3 2 1

8 5 4 3 3 2

9 5 5 4 3 2 1

10 6 5 4 3 3 2

11 6 5 4 4 3 2 1

12 6 5 4 4 3 3 2

13 6 5 5 4 4 3 2 1

14 6 6 5 4 4 3 3 2

15 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 2 1

16 7 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2

17 7 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1

18 7 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2

19 7 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2

20 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3
_________________
Mongol General: "Conan! What is best in life?"

Conan: "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women."

[Shenron]

Animator (Intelligence, no alignment restrictions)

The Animator is a Necromancer who concentrates on the summoning aspects of the art. These sorcerers have been known for creating armies of undead warrior to vex their foes.

ABILITIES:

Spells: A Necromancer casts arcane spells. Necromancer can only cast a limited number of spells per day, from each spell level , per day. A Necromancer prepares and castes spells in the same manner as a wizard. Necromancers are the only ones that gain access to Necromantic spells, the Necromancer must replace half of the usual spells options with these spells where applicable.

Bonus Spells: With a high Intelligence score, the Necromancer gains bonus spells. At Intelligence between 13-15, they can memorize an extra 1st level spell. At Intelligence 16-17, they can memorize an extra 2nd level spell. At 18 or 19, they can memorize an extra 3rd level spell.

Taint of Death: The dealings with the underworld and constant presence of death leaves its taint upon the Necromancer, plus their reputation does not help. This may not be a visible taint but most sane people are very uncomfortable being around or dealing with a Necromancer. They suffer a -2 penalty on all CHAR checks when dealing with people they do not know, people more then one stepped removed from their alignment, and people that are not apart of their occult circles, etc.

Blessed of Nartarus: Spending time with the undead does have its benefits, they gain a +1 bonus to resist all special attacks from undead creatures. This increases to +2 at 4th level, +3 at 8th level, +4 at 12th level, and so on.

Flesh of the Undead: The Animators flesh pales and toughens, granting him a +2 natural AC bonus.

Animate Dead: The ability functions exactly like the spell except that the Animator does not require any material components.

Summon Mastery: At 4th level, the Animators skill increases so much that the dead he animates are more powerful and are increased as follows. These increases do not count towards the normal HD limit per the Animators Animate Dead ability.

Masterwork Skeleton

SIZE: Medium

HD: 2 (d12)

MOVE: 30ft

AC: 16

ATTACKS: Weapon (Bastard Sword, 1d10) [+1 Magical Bonus]

SPECIAL: Undead

SAVES: P

INT: None

ALIGNMENT: Neutral

TYPE: Undead (Common)

TREASURE: 1

XP: 20 + 1

Fast Zombie

SIZE: Medium

HD: 3 (d8)

MOVE: 20ft

AC: 15

ATTACKS: Slam (1d10) [+1 Magical Bonus]

SPECIAL: Undead

SAVES: P

INT: None

ALIGNMENT: Neutral

TYPE: Undead (Common)

TREASURE: 1

XP: 20 + 2

Improved Flesh of the Undead: At 6th level, the Animators natural armor bonus increases to +4.

Summon Golem: At 8th level, the Animator as mastered the spirits of the dead and now as gained some control over the spirits of the elements. If the Animator has enough material to create the Golem in question (ignoring the gold requirement), he summons the golem to life, following the normal rules for creating a golem. He can do this even if the Animator does not have access the spells needed. The mental strain of creating a golem this way is intense, and he can only create one golem in any way shape or form once he gains this ability.

Golem Mastery: At 10th level, the Animators own power flows through the golem increases the own golems power. The golems stats increase as follows;

Masterwork (Type) Golem

SIZE: Large

HD: +4 HD

MOVE: 30ft

AC: +6 Increase

ATTACKS: Damage increases by 2 steps

SPECIAL: Loses the Berserk Ability

SAVES: P

INT: Animal

ALIGNMENT: Neutral

TYPE: Construct

TREASURE: +2

XP: +40

Death to the Ever-Living: At 12th level, the Animator can destroy their creations and other lesser undead with a touch. The touched simply crumble into a pile of dust and bones. Any undead that exceed the Animators HD receive a CON save. This ability is extended to constructs as well.

Level HD BtH EPP

1 d6 0 0

2 d6 +1 2,601

3 d6 +1 5,201

4 d6 +2 10,401

5 d6 +2 20,801

6 d6 +3 42,501

7 d6 +3 85,001

8 d6 +4 170,001

9 d6 +4 340,001

10 d6 +5 500,001

11 +2 HP +5 750,001

12 +2 HP +6 1,000,001

13+ + 250,000 per level

Animator Spell List;

Level 0 (8):

Level 1 (13):

Level 2 (12):

Level 3 (12):

Level 4 (12):

Level 5 (12):

Level 6 (8):

Level 7 (8):

Level 8 (8):

Level 9 (8):

Necromancer Spells per Day

Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th

1 3 1

2 4 2

3 4 2 1

4 4 3 2

5 4 3 2 1

6 5 3 3 2

7 5 4 3 2 1

8 5 4 3 3 2

9 5 4 4 3 2 1

10 5 4 4 3 3 2

11 6 5 4 4 3 2 1

12 6 5 4 4 3 3 2

13 6 5 5 4 4 3 2 1

14 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2

15 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1

16 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2

17 7 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1

18 7 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2

19 7 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2

20 7 6 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3
_________________
Mongol General: "Conan! What is best in life?"

Conan: "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women."

[serleran]

I have conversions of all the Diablo II classes simply because, a long time back, when people were saying "this and this cannot be done with C&C" I wanted to show them they were wrong. However, I won't be posting it or distributing it -- at one point I made the Amazon available, though.
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Serl's Corner

[zombiehands]

serleran wrote:
I have conversions of all the Diablo II classes simply because, a long time back, when people were saying "this and this cannot be done with C&C" I wanted to show them they were wrong. However, I won't be posting it or distributing it -- at one point I made the Amazon available, though.

darn

[Shenron]

So what do you think of my two Necromancer classes?
_________________
Mongol General: "Conan! What is best in life?"

Conan: "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women."

[Shenron]

Oh, I have made some slight changes to the Animator.
_________________
Mongol General: "Conan! What is best in life?"

Conan: "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women."