Why I Cancelled My D&D 4e Books and Ordered C&C Inst

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:34 am

I know getting my Dungeon and Dragon magazines canceled was a big factor in my subscribing to the Crusader.
_________________
The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:52 am

rumcove wrote:
Gideon was right.

*smiles* I generally am. It just takes folks a while to agree with me.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:03 pm

Omote wrote:
Indeed, that is but part of an incantrical saying that might tear apart the fabric our our universe, should the stars be aligned just right.

BEWARE!

-

I think it's a magical limerick:

Amongst the Castles and Crusades,

Past the glens and the glades,

Gideon was right,

Gary was bright,

And the Trolls had goodies in spades.
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:01 pm

Uh oh!? what's that rumbling...

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Bowbe · Post by **Bowbe** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:58 am

jaguar451 wrote:
I wonder what percentage of WotC's $$$ comes from computer game licenses (D&D online, Neverwinter Nights, .....) -- from the little that I've heard, 4E sounds well suited for computer games....

Zilch. Zero Dinero. Nada.

Link: http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsart ... chid=16560

Hasbro (the parent company) holds those video gamey rights. WOTC does not, nor will it ever again hold those rights. Hasbro collects all the proverbial coin for it, granting WOTC nothing in return for any labor by pen and paper developers of the new and improved electronic friendly rules system.

I knew that from some friends of mine with WOTC but wanted to provide the link for those who say nay when such crazed things are stated on message boards.

When they told me that hasbro owns all the "rules rights" and D&D license rights for video games and the designers get NOTHING I was shocked and appalled. Video games make a brazilian times the amount of cash that pen and paper games do and you can bet that programmers, mappers, designers, and their artists command much larger salaries than do employees at WOTC. Hell even game testers for video game companies get payed. Lets just say its stuff like that which makes me happier to work with dudes like the Trolls than the "bigshots in Renton".

Take it a level further. A ton of people played knights of the old republic. It was a great game. If you played 3e you recognized right away that it was Star Wars D20 turn based video game where you took a "turn" by hitting the pause button. It had all the feats, skills, force powers and so on that one would need. If I recall correctly I looked through the booklet for that game under credits and didnt find the names of ANYONE at WOTC.

No Cook, No Perkins, No Tweet, No Williams, no Reynolds. Nobody. I mighta missed it but I don't think so. I do know that on xbox (original) alone it sold 1 million copies at about 30 bucks a pop.

It sorta makes one wonder if Monte and the rest would have surged out into the d20 market on their own if they had gotten even a fraction of the royalties for DDOnline or KOTOR I and II.

4e IS however mandated to be more suitable for conversion to PC/XBoxX/PSX games. So despite the witch-hunt currently going on at EnWorld and WOTC's boards against anyone who says "feels like a video game or an mmorpg" thats your answer.

Hasbro would love to have a D&D videogame that sells a million copies a pop for xbox X and PS X or PC. They dont have to share the spoils with their P&P developers and don't have to split any profits with Lucas. Not a bad deal for shareholders looking to cash in on the time tested lucrative IP of Forgotten Realms.

All this leads me to ponder the online initiative. It almost seems as if it was an inside WOTC feint to try and cash in on video game money by making their "virtual tabletop" and voice over chat live gaming services and subscription based assets without having to turn over all the profit to Hasbro above their normal profit split. (I've heard 70/30 but that could just be smoke).

Since virtual tabletop is an actual MMORPG "video game" (and let no one tell you different) without being a "video game" which would land it in the arena of "Hasbro full rights ownership vs. WOTC rights control".

Isn't business fun?

Case

[/b]

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:04 am

Very interesting. How on earth did Wizards of the Coast lose the rights in the first place?
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:14 am

Zudrak wrote:
I think it's a magical limerick:

Amongst the Castles and Crusades,

Past the glens and the glades,

Gideon was right,

Gary was bright,

And the Trolls had goodies in spades.

Simply beautiful!

Bowbe · Post by **Bowbe** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:35 am

Hasbro bought em out.

Part of the buyout involved the profits from video games derived from their IP were the property of Hasbro.

Hasbro then shopped the license around to whoever could give them the best deal with consistant quality so they licensed it to Atari ect.

Case

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:38 am

Ah, so it was part of the buy out. No wonder whatshisname walked off with so much cash.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

Telhawk · Post by **Telhawk** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:58 am

I can't say I ever really cared a tinker's cuss for d20 - no matter what version might be up for discussion - but holy crap on a popsicle stick, even I can't stomach the idea of chopping its creators out of any secondary or tertiary profit lines that developed from their ideas. It brings to mind the situation at Marvel and DC back in pre-'92, where the concept of paying royalties on work that the writers and artists had actually created and sweated over was nothing more than a forlorn joke.

Well, just another reason to bolster Troll Lords and rejoice in our pen-and-paper world. If Hasbro decides to give TLG the once-over, I say we get out the crosses and holy water until Hasbro screams, "It burns!"

P.S.: Is the whatshisname you're refering to Peter Adkinson?

papercut · Post by **papercut** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:27 am

Bowbe wrote:
Zilch. Zero Dinero. Nada.

Link: http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsart ... chid=16560

Hasbro (the parent company) holds those video gamey rights. WOTC does not, nor will it ever again hold those rights. Hasbro collects all the proverbial coin for it, granting WOTC nothing in return for any labor by pen and paper developers of the new and improved electronic friendly rules system.

I knew that from some friends of mine with WOTC but wanted to provide the link for those who say nay when such crazed things are stated on message boards.

When they told me that hasbro owns all the "rules rights" and D&D license rights for video games and the designers get NOTHING I was shocked and appalled. Video games make a brazilian times the amount of cash that pen and paper games do and you can bet that programmers, mappers, designers, and their artists command much larger salaries than do employees at WOTC. Hell even game testers for video game companies get payed. Lets just say its stuff like that which makes me happier to work with dudes like the Trolls than the "bigshots in Renton".

Take it a level further. A ton of people played knights of the old republic. It was a great game. If you played 3e you recognized right away that it was Star Wars D20 turn based video game where you took a "turn" by hitting the pause button. It had all the feats, skills, force powers and so on that one would need. If I recall correctly I looked through the booklet for that game under credits and didnt find the names of ANYONE at WOTC.

No Cook, No Perkins, No Tweet, No Williams, no Reynolds. Nobody. I mighta missed it but I don't think so. I do know that on xbox (original) alone it sold 1 million copies at about 30 bucks a pop.

It sorta makes one wonder if Monte and the rest would have surged out into the d20 market on their own if they had gotten even a fraction of the royalties for DDOnline or KOTOR I and II.

4e IS however mandated to be more suitable for conversion to PC/XBoxX/PSX games. So despite the witch-hunt currently going on at EnWorld and WOTC's boards against anyone who says "feels like a video game or an mmorpg" thats your answer.

Hasbro would love to have a D&D videogame that sells a million copies a pop for xbox X and PS X or PC. They dont have to share the spoils with their P&P developers and don't have to split any profits with Lucas. Not a bad deal for shareholders looking to cash in on the time tested lucrative IP of Forgotten Realms.

All this leads me to ponder the online initiative. It almost seems as if it was an inside WOTC feint to try and cash in on video game money by making their "virtual tabletop" and voice over chat live gaming services and subscription based assets without having to turn over all the profit to Hasbro above their normal profit split. (I've heard 70/30 but that could just be smoke).

Since virtual tabletop is an actual MMORPG "video game" (and let no one tell you different) without being a "video game" which would land it in the arena of "Hasbro full rights ownership vs. WOTC rights control".

Isn't business fun?

Case

[/b]

Sounds like business as usual. Happens everyday. What's the problem? If you ever see any interviews with gaming pros, they talk of games in terms of "properties" and "license." They know the deal.

I think Gary Gygax was right when he was concerned that Wotc gave away DnD through the SRD. 0,1,2,3e are now gone as a pnp game, but Wotc/Hasbro still controlls the IP. They need to create new systems suited for new video games. I wouldn't be surprised if the TSR properties bring in more revenue than the DnD pnp rpg (which may be viewed as RnD).

Is there any source that chronicles the fall of TSR, Wotc purchase, creation of 3e, and the sunsequent purchase by Hasbro? It might be an interesting Harvard Business Review case study.

The biggest winners of the whole process, I fell, were the original artist of the Mtg card series. I had dinner with one of them once (I forget his name, he painted the awful shivan dragon card). He told me that the artists were paid very little, but they received stock in lieu of proper payment. Turns out that stock was very, very valuable.

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:38 pm

I was lurking on the forums looking for Star Seige updates when I saw the title of this post and literally spit my coffee with amusement! I did the exact same thing, for the exact same reason. I got my Castles and Crusades books and I'm ready to get back to the basics! It's funny because I think that Mr. Gygax's death is actually going to send even more DnD fans over to CnC. I came here after reading all the DnD XP posts and reeling, really wanting that excitement I got when I played as a kid. I can't wait for my first game.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:56 pm

papercut wrote:
The biggest winners of the whole process, I fell, were the original artist of the Mtg card series. I had dinner with one of them once (I forget his name, he painted the awful shivan dragon card). He told me that the artists were paid very little, but they received stock in lieu of proper payment. Turns out that stock was very, very valuable.

Actually, no. The early MtG artists got royally reamed. Chap named Ed Beard told me about it.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

TheNewGuy · Post by **TheNewGuy** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:18 am

Looping back to the idea behind the original post for a moment -- that is, the casual observation that C&C appears (please note the subjective term) to be more of a "D&D rpg" than what we can see thus far of the upcoming D&D 4e edition -- I found the following online yesterday, completely by accident ...

Over on livejournal, rpg game designer JD Wiker, and a group that included present/former WotC freelancers like Sean K. Reynolds, posted their impressions of their first 4e demo session.

Not only did JD post his version of events, but some of the other players pipe up in the Comments section which follows.

Also worth noting is that a current Habro/WotC employee (posting as Mouseferatu) chimes in pretty quickly with rebuttals to certain criticisms. Just so you know who the participants are ...

Personally, I found it interesting that the general attitude toward the 4e demo seemed to mirror what's already been said here: that D&D 4e looks like a worthwhile game, in and of itself, but that it doesn't "feel" much like D&D ...

But don't take my assessment. Read and interpret for yourselves, friends.

Link is HERE

TheNewGuy

Telhawk · Post by **Telhawk** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:09 am

Thank you for that link, NewGuy. Again, I'm making another comment without having read through the linked post in its entirety, but I'd like to think I've got at least a fair concept as to how things are going here. The most revealing point, I thought, was the actual response given to the writers' "It doesn't feel like D&D" comment:

Quote:
In its defense, Sean pointed out that we are not the target audience, because we--having played since 2nd or even 1st Edition--have a preconceived notion of what D&D is supposed to feel like. My understanding is that 4E is going to be aimed more at new players, although, again, I could be very wrong.

What this brings to mind - faulty as this comparison may be - is what Rick Berman and Brannon Braga were going for when they were putting together that unfortunate work called Enterprise closing on seven years ago. They left Star Trek out of the mix in order to attract a "new" generation of viewers...it turned out that all they did was alienate both new and old, and switched it over to Star Trek: Enterprise in third season in an effort to recapture the people they felt were "unnecessary" and had left behind.

Well, best to Wizards on this - and yes, I will look over the full article during a free moment in order to ensure that I'm not engaging in unfair bias here - but the name Dungeons & Dragons, as has been written before here, is simply a shell now; the innards have been scooped out and replaced with something "better" that guarantees a successful business quarter for Hasbro. Once again, thanking the Troll Lords' crew for C&C.

papercut · Post by **papercut** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:13 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Actually, no. The early MtG artists got royally reamed. Chap named Ed Beard told me about it.

Do tell, I am curious. I heard it from the horse's mouth as well. He told me he got low up front money but stock. Not sure about royalties though, those would have been substantial if they were granted. Course he could have been lying to make himself look good. His wife seemed very content though. His paintings were consistently bad in the alpha set, so I would guess that he couldn't have done too well as a fantasy artist otherwise. Nice guy.

My former studiomate and good friend Andrew Robinson also does/did a great deal of work for Wotc, but he is/was paid a flat fee.
_________________
Someone send me some dice!

Dyne · Post by **Dyne** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:45 pm

The thing I don't like about the direction D&D is headed, is that it looks like they're taking the most complicated and difficult aspects of roleplaying games and miniatures games, then combining them together. Games need to be simpler, and have room for the players' imaginations.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:53 pm

papercut wrote:
Do tell, I am curious. I heard it from the horse's mouth as well. He told me he got low up front money but stock. Not sure about royalties though, those would have been substantial if they were granted. Course he could have been lying to make himself look good. His wife seemed very content though. His paintings were consistently bad in the alpha set, so I would guess that he couldn't have done too well as a fantasy artist otherwise. Nice guy.

Ed seems to make himself a great deal of money. Mostly cause he's smart and got into the 'licensing' aspect of the industry. Postcards, shirts, mugs and so forth.

But from what I remember, Ed told me he'd worked his way through law school to be an artists advocate, mainly, at the time, due to the MTG cards. Only to find out, eventually, that there was, in fact, no royalty money to pay the artists as promised.

Mind, this was 3-4 years ago when we talked about it. And my memory for details is often fuzzy.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

adaen · Post by **adaen** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:28 pm

Zudrak wrote:
***FLASHBACK***

COLLEGE DORM ROOM

Turk (with scary high top) introduces himself to the just-moved-in J.D. (with scary mullet...and wizard hat).

Turk: Yo, they call me Chris One. What's the dilly-yo?

J.D. sits among his collection of fantasy geek stuff.

J.D.: Welcome to our lair! I'm an eighth-level ogre magi with invisibility. [Gestures to a plastic dragon] And this is Randall!

Ya gotta love it!
_________________
~Adaen of Bridgewater, www.highadventuregames.com

Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:49 pm

TheNewGuy wrote:
Did that make you tired just reading it?

I was *unable* to read it in its entirety.

TheNewGuy wrote:
Mr. E. Gary Gygax has died, and the game he co-created has suddenly become something I can barely recognize.

Now a most horrible thought is just crossing my mind. We all knew that Gary had some heart problems. So, who obliged Gary to read the 4e pre-releases on the 4th March 2008 ??!!!
_________________
Homebrews Wiki a list of campaign settings on the web.

froglegg · Post by **froglegg** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:14 pm

They can do what they want with D&D,It belongs to them but the more I learn about 4th edition the sicker I get.

Troll Lord Games

Why I Cancelled My D&D 4e Books and Ordered C&C Inst

Re: Why I Cancelled My D&D 4e Books and Ordered C&C