Why I Cancelled My D&D 4e Books and Ordered C&C Inst

rom90125 · Post by **rom90125** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:01 am

I wanted to throw my two cents in here as well. My regular group that I have DM'ed for the past 6 years decided to stay with 3.5. The group I occasionally play with is moving to 4E. I stand alone in wanting to go to C&C. So, my group took a break and another player took over as DM so they can continue with 3.5 (Ptolus) and I am prepping to begin my C&C journey using Fantasy Grounds.

I guess my first chance to play C&C on a table-top will be Gen Con. If anyone knows of some side action at Gen Con this year, please let me know.
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:09 am

serleran wrote:
Not necessarily, considering D&D (and most all FRPGs) don't have wounds in any kind of detail, considering the very abstract nature of HP. An attack by a dagger at level one against a fighter might be mortal (4 damage when you only have 6, for example) but, at 12th level, 4 damage means nothing. So, unless there is a mechanical way to gauge the strength of the opponent before the fight (or during it, a la C&C-style assassin, perhaps) then, no, there is no real way other than fiat.

I always solved things this way: when characters are down to their first HD worth of hit points (which I think represent pure physical resilience) I start describing that the wounds are becoming serious. For hit points amounts larger than that, they start representing skill, luck etc. I follow more or less Gary's descriptions of how hit points work in the DMG.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:18 pm

I hate to say this, but the game 4E is describing is Heroclix.

While I have been known to play this, it's certainly not role playing.

I basically play Heroclix when I want to have a complex game of chess.

Tank · Post by **Tank** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:14 pm

areola wrote:
My C&C sessions are focused entirely on the roleplaying, SIEGE checks and attack rolls. That's all. Some of the players are too engrossed that they almost forgot that they ARE rules to the game.. for me, thats just magic... It would be what Gygax would have wanted for everyone who played his game..

Zudrak wrote:
Two or three sessions back, we went the entire time without a die roll. The party was looking for a cleric to bring aboard. There were only 2 players at the time and the session was spent in conversation and in travel. No die rolls for "talking". No sense motive, no diplomacy, no "did hear you right", or "was that you?" rolls.

I think this really speaks for the versatility of C&C and the SIEGE engine. My game is nothing like that. The PCs are either in the dungeon navigating perilous trapped corridors and hacking their way through legions of beasties or spending their time in town selling loot and licking their wounds as they prepare for the next expedition. The rules-light nature of the game allows for each referee to structure his game in any way he desires.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:32 pm

rom90125 wrote:
I guess my first chance to play C&C on a table-top will be Gen Con. If anyone knows of some side action at Gen Con this year, please let me know.

Like in years in the past, there are some C&C games going on at Gen. There are always gamers around looking to play who can't get into the few C&C scheduled games, or the TLG special games. At some point we will need to come together and set up schedules for "open" games here on the TLG MBs. But that is the subject for another thread.

Good call Rom.

-O
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Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:13 pm

slimykuotoan wrote:
I hate to say this, but the game 4E is describing is Heroclix.

While I have been known to play this, it's certainly not role playing.

I basically play Heroclix when I want to have a complex game of chess.

That was my immediate reaction upon hearing from a attendee of DDE, at ENWorld, that all the DMs had brought in chips and counters to keep track of conditions, such as marked, blooded, marking, etcetcetc...

Mcrow · Post by **Mcrow** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:35 pm

Yeah, I canceled my order for 4E because now it's sounding mroe like 4e is just as complex and slow as 3ed just in different ways.

I've had C&C for a while know, but have chosen it as my system of choice know and am buying us stuff for it and saving a lot of money.
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TheNewGuy · Post by **TheNewGuy** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:39 pm

Tank wrote:
I think this really speaks for the versatility of C&C and the SIEGE engine. My game is nothing like that. The PCs are either in the dungeon navigating perilous trapped corridors and hacking their way through legions of beasties or spending their time in town selling loot and licking their wounds as they prepare for the next expedition. The rules-light nature of the game allows for each referee to structure his game in any way he desires.

This is at the heart of my dismay over D&D 4e, Tank, and why I originally posted this topic.

As I said, I have liked and disliked things about all the editions of D&D -- I'm not just some nostalgic grognard suspicious of anything new or different -- but it's the apparent lack of versatility and adaptability in the baseline D&D 4e rules we're seeing which has finally chased me off from the game.

From all appearances, you play 4e one way: the company way -- which involves miniatures, maps, counters, cards, trigger conditions, and so forth ...

I always felt that the true appeal of D&D was that it was pretty easy to learn and to play, but that it could also "scale up" to be whatever you required as your gaming needs, and your understanding of the rules, grew.

It sounds like D&D 4e has a very cluttered "learning curve" now, one which privileges mechanics over storytelling, and I can't see how that's good for the world's best-known rpg franchise.

The last friend we introduced to D&D, a couple of years back, there's just no way he would've tried the game (let alone liked it) if we had hit him with all this 4e-style "stuff" right off the top. He made a halfling thief; he crawled a dungeon; he rolled dice; he enjoyed the story; he had fun.

If I have learned one thing in all my years of Game Mastering, it's that it is always easier to add elements to a simple game system, than it is to remove elements from a complex one.

My only point in posting originally was to share my shock and sorrow that D&D 4e seems to be transmuting into something I barely recognize -- something needlessly complicated even (especially?) at the entry-level.

I also wanted to express my hope the Castles & Crusades can pick up where D&D has left off.

I haven't got my books from Amazon yet (the new printings are slated to ship March 18th, and I can't wait), but I have bought a few PDF materials from RPGNow, and downloaded some freebie stuff from the TLG website. It looks promising.

Someone here asked me to post my thoughts on C&C here once I have the books, and I intend to do so.

Thanks to everyone for all the kind words and commentary. I do read every reply.

TheNewGuy

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:39 pm

TheNewGuy wrote:
This is at the heart of my dismay over D&D 4e, Tank, and why I originally posted this topic.

As I said, I have liked and disliked things about all the editions of D&D -- I'm not just some nostalgic grognard suspicious of anything new or different -- but it's the apparent lack of versatility and adaptability in the baseline D&D 4e rules we're seeing which has finally chased me off from the game.

From all appearances, you play 4e one way: the company way -- which involves miniatures, maps, counters, cards, trigger conditions, and so forth ...

I always felt that the true appeal of D&D was that it was pretty easy to learn and to play, but that it could also "scale up" to be whatever you required as your gaming needs, and your understanding of the rules, grew.

It sounds like D&D 4e has a very cluttered "learning curve" now, one which privileges mechanics over storytelling, and I can't see how that's good for the world's best-known rpg franchise.

The last friend we introduced to D&D, a couple of years back, there's just no way he would've tried the game (let alone liked it) if we had hit him with all this 4e-style "stuff" right off the top. He made a halfling thief; he crawled a dungeon; he rolled dice; he enjoyed the story; he had fun.

If I have learned one thing in all my years of Game Mastering, it's that it is always easier to add elements to a simple game system, than it is to remove elements from a complex one.

My only point in posting originally was to share my shock and sorrow that D&D 4e seems to be transmuting into something I barely recognize -- something needlessly complicated even (especially?) at the entry-level.

I also wanted to express my hope the Castles & Crusades can pick up where D&D has left off.

I haven't got my books from Amazon yet (the new printings are slated to ship March 18th, and I can't wait), but I have bought a few PDF materials from RPGNow, and downloaded some freebie stuff from the TLG website. It looks promising.

Someone here asked me to post my thoughts on C&C here once I have the books, and I intend to do so.

Thanks to everyone for all the kind words and commentary. I do read every reply.

TheNewGuy

If your OK with adding complexity yourself, you will be able to make C&C into the exact game you are happy with. It may take some alternative thinking.

To explain what I mean by "alternative thinking", I actually like the idea of feats, and I do like defined skill lists. But not the way they are in 3E. So I went through a few changes to get to what I use now, and it doesn't really look like 3E feats anymore, other than using the words to describe the effect desired by a successful SIEGE roll. The skill system is radically simpler, select any 10 skills you want your character to have, period. Then add any INT bonus as skills, AND also use your INT bonus for additional language.

I also had "alternative thinking" as far as C&C goes too. I do not agree that a Thief only gets to treat their class skills as Prime as long as their relevant stat is Prime. I think class takes precedence over Prime stats, so all class skills are treated as if the relevant stat is Prime, even if it isn't.

Anyways, if you have no problems tweaking a games rules set to suit what you want your game to be, then I think you will end up loving C&C, especially since it still allows you to use every single D&D book you own if you like something in it. No matter the edition.

So if you like some rule, or rules, from a 2E "Options" book, you can easily integrate it into C&C. If you like FEATS, as they are presented in 3E, you can use them that way if you want to, and so on. Magic items, rules, classes, races, everything and anything you like from any book can be integrated into the C&C system so easily you will get teary eyed after doing it a couple of times and seeing the ease for yourself.

You will feel liberated to not only have total control of your game back, but the fact that the total control allows, enables, and helps you to have EXACTLY the game you want.

If you want to see my "alternative thinking" after you get and have read the core books, let me know. My house rules are posted several times on this message board, the most recent and updated version being in the Online Games forum for my Monday night game. Or I can just e-mail you a document.
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GameOgre · Post by **GameOgre** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:51 pm

While I do run and play C&C as well as LA and other games including 1&2ED&D I find that the somewhat widespread attitude coming from many gamers on the subject of 4E to be upsetting.

Frankly the game is not out yet and we know very little about it. Sure a bit here and there are released and some shout to the heavens that its a godsend and just as many scream and rant that this game is no longer for them. BOTH groups are just kneejerking.

To talk about D&D 4E in such a negative light when the rules are mostly unknown is not wise. Nor is putting hopes and faith in another system C&C wise if you have never read and understand what it really is.

Think about it like this. What if one of the few things you knew about any D&D system were its Encumbrance rules? Never once in all my years with D&D have I ever used them. I base my like or dislike of a game on one section of rules that could be left out totally?

Dont get me wrong I love C&C and really it sounds like you might to. Just realize I got the books at first and was disapointed,It was indeed simple. TOO simple in fact. It felt like going from a mature developed system to one that was simple only because it didnt cover anything.

It was not untill many months later when I really got desperate enough to look into it more that I realized that C&C was a core system that was I WAS TOO ALTER to fit my tastes. I did this by stealing from AD&D,OD&D,1ED&D and 2ED&D.

I love C&C for this but many would not. Many found expect that a RPG should spell the official rules out for you and cover everything.

I do hope you enjoy C&C as much as I have. I just hate to read about peoples slanted views on a game that has yet to see the light of day.

Even though I do plan to check out the new 4E I would never think of preordering anything that I didnt know that I would enjoy. In time it will release and we will see what type of game it is. for good or bad I just would like people to judge it for what it is.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:58 pm

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Mcrow · Post by **Mcrow** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:02 pm

For my part I just decided not to pre-order 4e. I'll likely take a look at it when it comes out and if it's good I may buy it. By all accounts, from the info WotC has released, 4E is just as complex as 3e. That much can't really be disputed too much. If anything 4e is just slightly less complicated.

I guess I don't have a problem if people jump all over 4e based on the info WotC has handed out. Peronally, I'd like to see it do well be cause it will be the flagship game in the hobby.
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:05 pm

Thenewguy said:

"As I said, I have liked and disliked things about all the editions of D&D -- I'm not just some nostalgic grognard suspicious of anything new or different-- but it's the apparent lack of versatility and adaptability in the baseline D&D 4e rules we're seeing which has finally chased me off from the game."

Well, as a nostalgic grognard who's suspicious of anything new or different let me say that the biggest turnoff to 4E to me is the "supposedly objective" reviews I've read via Enworld or DNDInsider.

"What do you mean Sieg?"

"Well, I'll tell you..."

...Its that each of these reviews (other than this one by TNG) love 4E so much and insist that there's NOTHING WRONG with 4E AT ALL or nothing not to like.

C'mon! Has *anyone* gotten an RPG and liked EVERY SINGLE RULE? Ever?

I'm a major fan of 1E AD&D, and will play it whenever possible. But even taking the 3 core books there are things I didn't like. The Surprise/Initiative system comes to mind. I've never bought an RPG where I thought every single rule was perfect. Not even C&C and I was a contributor.

So, when someone tells me "This version of the Moby d**k RPG is the perfect edition with NOTHING wrong!" my normally-suspicious grognard self goes into super-paranoid mode.

4E is in that boat with me. The more people try to tell me its perfect the more suspicious I get. Especially since a lot of these people were telling me 3X was perfect not 9 months ago.
As for C&C, I rarely hear that "Its Perfect!" bit around here. Far more often I hear "If you don't like XYZ, change it. Different strokes."... Which if I were a newbie to C&C would make me feel a lot more comfortable...Not to mention not feeling "Blooded"! Oh sorry, went into tabletense there.
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GameOgre · Post by **GameOgre** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:14 pm

Quote:

Actually made me laugh.
I felt like the guy on Scrubs for a momment there.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:10 pm

Sieg, another fine... rant. Damn you're schmoove.

-O
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TheNewGuy · Post by **TheNewGuy** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:43 pm

GameOgre wrote:
I do hope you enjoy C&C as much as I have. I just hate to read about peoples slanted views on a game that has yet to see the light of day.

Even though I do plan to check out the new 4E I would never think of preordering anything that I didnt know that I would enjoy. In time it will release and we will see what type of game it is. for good or bad I just would like people to judge it for what it is.

Respectfully, Ogre, I fear you're "using a shotgun for a sniper rifle" here -- hitting certain targets indiscriminately.

I didn't post to damn D&D, nor to jump on some "bandwagon" either criticising 4e, or praising C&C.

I wrote to explain why what I have seen of the 4e rules (not all of it discussed here) was sufficient to make me cancel my preorders of the 4e books -- how 4e appears to be a significant enough departure in game-play style, that I don't think it's for me.

About the same time that I came to this conclusion, I discovered C&C, which now looks poised to step in and be the sort of gameplay experience I am looking for ...

That's all.

I thought I was clear enough in my two posts, but apparently I wasn't. Probably, my attempts at humor muddied the communication. Apologies.

But if you're looking for "slanted views", you're looking at the wrong poster -- I was merely stating my experiences and opinions, and wondering if I was alone in them. That's all.

Thanks for posting. Thanks to everyone who's contributed here. It's all very interesting.

TheNewGuy

rumcove · Post by **rumcove** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:03 am

TheNewGuy,

You're not alone.

I had been trying to get my gaming group to play C&C for over a year and they were content to play with 3.X, even though the general consensus was that it had been played out (a sentiment we never expressed for older editions, oddly enough).

After the D&D Experience, each of them came to me asking for a new option that wasn't 4e.

I would reckon that the number of converts and defectors will grow after the summer. This is not based on the merit of the new Edition, mind you. Just a hunch.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:09 am

rumcove wrote:
I would reckon that the number of converts and defectors will grow after the summer. This is not based on the merit of the new Edition, mind you. Just a hunch.

Welcome rumcove.

I would agree with you on this. There is no doubt that the new product will be popular, but overall I think converts to games like C&C shall grow in number this year. Great point rumcove.

-O
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:18 am

...and I'm not sure how one can be 'slanted' about a game when the poster is posting direct "C&P" comments from the 4E DM's post?
BTW, Thenewguy.... So, I'm dying to know....what's up with the cards in play?
Inquiring Grogs want to know!
Mike"Grog and Proud!" Stewart
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rumcove · Post by **rumcove** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:30 am

Thanks for the welcome, Omote. I've haunted these forums for a long time. Since I'll finally be running a game, I should become more vocal.

To be clear - I'm in the "sorry, it looks like a lot of fun, but it's not my bag" group. If I got an invitation to a 4e table, I'd be there, dice ready. But I doubt it would ever be my system of choice or one that I would want to invest money into.

How can I say this without having all the rules in front of me? Because all the reasons I've read to "inspire me" into playing are all the reasons that made me feel that 3.X was a chore. Removing or house ruling them out of the system would leave me with a C&C clone. I'd rather spend that time working on my home setting, personally.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:40 am

rumcove, well, since you haunted these forums for a while, I hope you wont mind me saying...
FISH!

-O
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Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:17 am

GameOgre wrote:
Actually made me laugh.
I felt like the guy on Scrubs for a momment there.

I love Scrubs...

***FLASHBACK***

COLLEGE DORM ROOM

Turk (with scary high top) introduces himself to the just-moved-in J.D. (with scary mullet...and wizard hat).

Turk: Yo, they call me Chris One. What's the dilly-yo?

J.D. sits among his collection of fantasy geek stuff.

J.D.: Welcome to our lair! I'm an eighth-level ogre magi with invisibility. [Gestures to a plastic dragon] And this is Randall!
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:38 am

Treebore wrote:
Anyone who wants to see a "BIG PICTURE" of what 4E is to be, via stuff released as tid bits and including the 5 page rules handout WOTC distributed for 4E play at the D&D Experience Convention, get this compiled PDF:

GAHHHH! My eyes! My eyes!!

*runs away screaming*
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BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:03 am

Welcome to the Crusade. I actually ran a playtest of 4e w/ the pregens & monsters they've shown, and it was fun-- but in the same way as Magic the Gathering, or WoW, or a boardgame is fun. There was absolutely no sense of "suspension of disbelief" we all were playing in the mode that this was a tactical game, and played accordingly, rather than doing much role-playing etc.

My big problem w/ 4e is not the rules though-- it was a fun session afterall. It is their marketing. Selling gimped products at $40 each to make you buy more for the same $ (for instance half-orcs, gnomes, barbarians, druids, monks, bards, & sorcerers are not in the PHB-- they are coming out in the "PHBII" shameless cashgrab). The Draconomicron-- a name which implies the title should deal with all things dragon will also be released over multiple volumes, so they can get more blood from the stone so to speak.

Hallelujiah for the Trolls. Wizards has confirmed that 4e will be dedicated to Gary Gygax, but C&C is his legacy, and I say LONG LIVE THE CRUSADE!
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papercut · Post by **papercut** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:00 pm

After reading the wired story about Mr Gygax, and the post above. It sounds like DnD has returned to its wargame/chainmail roots. But what has really happened is a generation of console rpgers have started to design the pnp games. Limit breaks, tiered armor sets, codified roles in groups (tank, dps, healer), online play. The console games were originally based on dnd, so its a kind of vicsious cycle (virtuous?).

What Wotc should do is reprint the 1e DMG as an oversized volume along with 4e. That would be a fitting tribute and an interesting book as well, added size would make it more readable, all around cooler. That book is insane, I recently bought the pdf and printed it out for cheap here in Taiwan, and it blows the mind. Just about every page has something cool on it. I've played DnD on and off for 12 years and that book pretty much addresses any rpg problem one might run into. Wish I'd had it earlier.

I'm curious about 4e though, it will be the standard in a few years, if only because it will be the most accessible set on the market.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:14 pm

GameOgre wrote:
While I do run and play C&C as well as LA and other games including 1&2ED&D I find that the somewhat widespread attitude coming from many gamers on the subject of 4E to be upsetting.

Not to mention counterproductive.

To all: Probably why I mentioned earlier in the thread that TLG discourages edition bashing threads. I guess I wasn't clear enough.

Threats that get too negative or continue to delve into the pointless tend to go away here.
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Post by **Fiffergrund** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:10 pm

For the record, if this thread is bashing, then we really have it good on these forums. This thread is mild, and I don't see a problem with people saying that the game isn't for them. I will move it to Open, however, since it's not appropriate in this forum. I'd hate to see this sort of thing stomped on, since it's pretty civil and quite frankly does more for furthering the cause of C&C than locking or deleting threads would.
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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:01 pm

TheNewGuy wrote:
Even if C&C is not everything I hope, it's still got to be more to my liking -- and more fun -- than 4e promises to be ...

I apologize for this long post, and I thank all of you for giving me a place to vent in relative safety. I was literally so appalled and disappointed by what I'd read tonight on the D&D Insider, I had to go somewhere and purge the bad mojo. Thanks for listening.

My C&C books can't arrive soon enough.

TheNewGuy

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Valerian · Post by **Valerian** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:06 pm

I've looke dand kept up on the new 4th edition . I left 3rd a while ago to go back to first editon with a dose of 2nd and C&C , a smidgin of 3rd. I feel like I'm giving out on e of my wifes potion recipes. Yes for those who don't know me I'm married to a real life witch . Awonderful sweet woman I might add who puts up with all my rule changes and play tests . and games on beside me. But anyway what i have seen of 4th is mostly terrible . I say mostly because I like the more starting HP ( although 27 hp kobolds what the ^%*@) . I also like the healing surges , give the cleric a break. But the reliance on miniture for obvious reasons $$$$ and the powers are terrible. 25 levels of spells. From what i read wizards will trade out spells every level so at any given time they will have only like 10 spells , per round, per encounter and per day castings. anyway i will take a few things from 4th as i have from all editions but this edition it will be very few.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:59 pm

You know I think I finally get why D&D has actually been losing sales and not growing its market.

Who the heck (without having a good buddy say, "Play it man! You'll love it!")

would ever sit down and try to figure out such a complicated game?

People have problems sitting down and taking the time to learn the rules to a board game.

I think that is a good marketing tool C&C could use, except when it comes to CKing. The CK needs to know and understand all the rules and how to adjudicate the spells, interpret the magic items, interpret the monsters, etc...

I think that is the real reason D&D is losing ground to the computer/video game market. Plug it in, select a few things, and play.

Short attention span/short on time/etc... equals playing video games.

Even with C&C you need at least one person willing to spend a couple of hours reading and trying to understand the rules. How many people are going to be willing to do that?

Heck, I never would have played D&D if I didn't have a couple of buddies convince me it was such a great game and worth the time it takes to learn it.
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Why I Cancelled My D&D 4e Books and Ordered C&C Inst

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