Why I Cancelled My D&D 4e Books and Ordered C&C Inst
Oh. My. God.
I haven't had time to read more than the first page of this thread - after all Jungger and Arkon are coming over in a couple minutes and we are finally, FINALLY going to play our beloved C&C again - but God and Sonny Jesus, NewGuy, those quotes were painful to get through. It was like reading the first-hand account of some new pathology - Tax Attorneyphilia - with the subject raving about how wonderful being a tax attorney is. The deductions! The write-offs! The mutual funds and tax-free municpals! More! More, oh please gimme more!
I still find myself in a state of loss - I can't call it mourning, because I never met the man personally, but his influence on my life was more than significant - over Mr. Gygax's passing, but I'd like to think that his association with Troll Lord was, for him, proof-positive that the dream continues to thrive and grow. D&D post-'99 has become one of those things that I just smile and shake my head over (most of the time, anyway), but a bit of insanity like this coming over the airwaves means it's time to close the books.
I will say that there's some degree of hilarity in reading these dispatches, NewGuy, so please feel free to keep dropping samples off. Till then, I'm going to get the pens, paper and books out and get Kardrigan and his boys back to the Temple of Elemental Evil...
I haven't had time to read more than the first page of this thread - after all Jungger and Arkon are coming over in a couple minutes and we are finally, FINALLY going to play our beloved C&C again - but God and Sonny Jesus, NewGuy, those quotes were painful to get through. It was like reading the first-hand account of some new pathology - Tax Attorneyphilia - with the subject raving about how wonderful being a tax attorney is. The deductions! The write-offs! The mutual funds and tax-free municpals! More! More, oh please gimme more!
I still find myself in a state of loss - I can't call it mourning, because I never met the man personally, but his influence on my life was more than significant - over Mr. Gygax's passing, but I'd like to think that his association with Troll Lord was, for him, proof-positive that the dream continues to thrive and grow. D&D post-'99 has become one of those things that I just smile and shake my head over (most of the time, anyway), but a bit of insanity like this coming over the airwaves means it's time to close the books.
I will say that there's some degree of hilarity in reading these dispatches, NewGuy, so please feel free to keep dropping samples off. Till then, I'm going to get the pens, paper and books out and get Kardrigan and his boys back to the Temple of Elemental Evil...
Bash Man,
You can't fault any company for wanting to make money. As North Americans, we're trained to be good consumers, collectors and completists.
I agree that the 4e marketing, so far, has been questionable and debatably alienating. However, I do feel that the design behind it is brilliant (including the financial aspects), by tapping into the current trends and focusing more on the product identity. "That's not an Elf, that's an Eladrin. If you refer to it, please make your check out to WotC."
And by creating more of a tactical wargame, they have the very sound defense that it shows more of D&D's roots than any other edition.
You can't fault any company for wanting to make money. As North Americans, we're trained to be good consumers, collectors and completists.
I agree that the 4e marketing, so far, has been questionable and debatably alienating. However, I do feel that the design behind it is brilliant (including the financial aspects), by tapping into the current trends and focusing more on the product identity. "That's not an Elf, that's an Eladrin. If you refer to it, please make your check out to WotC."
And by creating more of a tactical wargame, they have the very sound defense that it shows more of D&D's roots than any other edition.
-
slimykuotoan
- Greater Lore Drake
- Posts: 3669
- Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:00 am
- Location: Nine Hells
rumcove wrote:
And by creating more of a tactical wargame, they have the very sound defense that it shows more of D&D's roots than any other edition.
Well, the roots it had before becoming an rpg.
For crying out loud. Do your best with the rolls the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys... -Kayolan
serleran wrote:
Hey, I'm kinda looking forward to using 4e to play Warhammer (or Hero) Quest. Its got a strong board game feel to me... and that's not bad, its just not what I look for when I think D&D.
I agree. I've always looked for a Space Hulk-esque game with a lot more detail to it, and D&D 4 just might be the fit for it.
C&C/D&D-related writings, Cortex Classic material, and other scraps: https://sites.google.com/site/x17rpgstuff/home
Class-less D&D: https://github.com/ssfsx17/skill20
Class-less D&D: https://github.com/ssfsx17/skill20
...and of course Chain Mail didn't have collectible minis.
Hmmm. With the "blooded"/"Wounded"/etc. stuff; I wonder if after June 6th ("D-Day for 4E) a new line of D&D collectible minis will be released? Only these will have the rotating bases a la Heroclicks so you don't have to put pins in the top of the minis head w/beads?
AND just happen to get people dumping their old minis and buying a new set?
Naaah. WizBro wouldn't do anything that sleazy and moneygrubbing.
Now, would they.
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot
Hmmm. With the "blooded"/"Wounded"/etc. stuff; I wonder if after June 6th ("D-Day for 4E) a new line of D&D collectible minis will be released? Only these will have the rotating bases a la Heroclicks so you don't have to put pins in the top of the minis head w/beads?
AND just happen to get people dumping their old minis and buying a new set?
Naaah. WizBro wouldn't do anything that sleazy and moneygrubbing.
Now, would they.
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot
sieg wrote:
...and of course Chain Mail didn't have collectible minis.
Hmmm. With the "blooded"/"Wounded"/etc. stuff; I wonder if after June 6th ("D-Day for 4E) a new line of D&D collectible minis will be released? Only these will have the rotating bases a la Heroclicks so you don't have to put pins in the top of the minis head w/beads?
AND just happen to get people dumping their old minis and buying a new set?
Naaah. WizBro wouldn't do anything that sleazy and moneygrubbing.
Now, would they.
Sieg, behave yourself.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
I'm just ready for the due date to arrive. All this speculation and guessing, not to mention teasing from WotC, is driving everyone mad.
It reminds me of my middle school days when kids got into fights over if Darth Vader really was Luke's father or if Vader just said it to gain a hold over Luke. Waiting for Return of the Jedi was hard. . . .
It reminds me of my middle school days when kids got into fights over if Darth Vader really was Luke's father or if Vader just said it to gain a hold over Luke. Waiting for Return of the Jedi was hard. . . .
In the words of my good friend Trevor, "Hey, put an arrow in that flying mummy! What could possibly happen?"
-
gideon_thorne
- Maukling
- Posts: 6176
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
- Contact:
Fiffergrund wrote:
For the record, if this thread is bashing, then we really have it good on these forums. This thread is mild, and I don't see a problem with people saying that the game isn't for them. I will move it to Open, however, since it's not appropriate in this forum. I'd hate to see this sort of thing stomped on, since it's pretty civil and quite frankly does more for furthering the cause of C&C than locking or deleting threads would.
*snorts* I've never seen negative piling on do anyone any good in the long run. The only purpose these sorts of threads seem to have is to detract from the more relevant topics of a given forum. And they go on forever. ^_~`
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
gideon_thorne wrote:
*snorts* I've never seen negative piling on do anyone any good in the long run. The only purpose these sorts of threads seem to have is to detract from the more relevant topics of a given forum. And they go on forever. ^_~`
True, true.... but I'd rather moan and bitch about game systems than the weather, the loudness of music, and "those damn kids!" (all signs I will be approaching Professor Farnsworth-esque senility).
_________________
John "Sir Seskis" Wright
Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/
High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org
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moriarty777
- Renegade Mage
- Posts: 3735
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:00 am
- Location: Montreal, Canada
sieg wrote:
...and of course Chain Mail didn't have collectible minis.
Hmmm. With the "blooded"/"Wounded"/etc. stuff; I wonder if after June 6th ("D-Day for 4E) a new line of D&D collectible minis will be released? Only these will have the rotating bases a la Heroclicks so you don't have to put pins in the top of the minis head w/beads?
AND just happen to get people dumping their old minis and buying a new set?
Naaah. WizBro wouldn't do anything that sleazy and moneygrubbing.
Now, would they.
Personally, I'd love it if they did that. The market values for the current minis would fall! Cheaper minis to use for my C&C game!
M
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"
Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com
moriarty777 wrote:
Personally, I'd love it if they did that. The market values for the current minis would fall! Cheaper minis to use for my C&C game!
M
Excellent point!!!
Here is hoping for a greedy and sleezy WOTC!!!
Sleeze on, baby!
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
-
Breakdaddy
- Greater Lore Drake
- Posts: 3875
- Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:00 am
Welcome to the boards newguy. I think you will find C&C is a wonderfully fast and easy game to learn and play. That's what brings people in, I think. What keeps them coming back is the simplicity with which anyone can add their own house rules without causing major issues within the existing system.
"If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you."
-Genghis Khan
-Genghis Khan
seskis281 wrote:
True, true.... but I'd rather moan and bitch about game systems than the weather, the loudness of music, and "those damn kids!" (all signs I will be approaching Professor Farnsworth-esque senility).
Get off my lawn! *shakes fist* Thank the Lord I still drink milk to stay THIS feisty:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7Lp4f1Q9Z3Q
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.
"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"
"I shun him."
-----
"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."
-- E. Gary Gygax
Psalm 73:26
"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."
"Rules not understood should have appropriate questions directed to the publisher; disputes with the Dungeon Master are another matter entirely. THE REFEREE IS THE FINAL ARBITER OF ALL AFFAIRS OF HIS OR HER CAMPAIGN."
-- E. Gary Gygax
"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."
"Rules not understood should have appropriate questions directed to the publisher; disputes with the Dungeon Master are another matter entirely. THE REFEREE IS THE FINAL ARBITER OF ALL AFFAIRS OF HIS OR HER CAMPAIGN."
-- E. Gary Gygax
*plops down in the cage next to Sieg's*
WTF man! WTF! I been chained to this PC for years hehe.
Yeah... wow good post newguy, welcome to the Crusade.
The quick skinny that most have given is quite legit.
Basically... I get to playtest a ton of the optional rules out of the someday forthcoming CKG.
I throw everything on the table, then we pare it back to stuff that we all really like that makes our game fun to play.
Last night the boys and girls fought 1 battle against 3 upscaled (more HD) Ogres, bodyguarding a human bard... the bard escaped and now they realize something more is going on with the bard than they first expected and that he is a dangerous hombre to be hanging out in the shell of a town full of monsters.
Next they made some plans, and deliberated tactics on how to cross into the no-mans land... and heard the cries for help of a pair of young girls trapped in the shell of a gatehouse tower.
Those that could climb up did... and found a pair of harpies who ordered them to leap off the tower because harpies like their meat tenderized...
Another quick and bloody fight ensued.
Next they realized their battle with the harpies had brought the attention of a band of about 24 gnolls led by a gnoll who fought as a fighter and had some beefcake gear.
Using the shattered buildings, terrain, cover, concealment, and good tactics the PCs made it through this battle.
All this activity took place with a party of 7 characters and took a wopping:
Ready for this?
3 and a half hours. Yup. Done.
That couldn't be done in a 3.0-3.5 session. I should know, I wrote enough of it *(3.0-3.5 stuff)*
Now... what sorta things do I do different? Well borrowing merely the "idea' as it was initially described for 4e (As opposed to how it is apparently going to be). I allow a quicker "recharge" of magic spells ... say every 3 hours game world time vs. every 8-12.
Since we have a lot of extraneous rules cut out and solve things with attribute checks that goes faster (Thanks C&C) mind you my guys still like to "spot and listen" and that wont be broken no matter what. Ok.. they roll a wisdom check for that add race and whatever bonuses to it, level if they have a class that would be "extra good" at spot and listen (like ranger, rogue, assassin, barbarian).
And I use the Paizo critical hits deck because... we like it grim and bloody.
There is a cleric of Bowbe (barbarian deity whose monniker i use) who is missing 2 fingers, has very badly damaged armor and equipment... and would have lost an eye + some con last night had he not slurped up his coveted potion of heal... and still ended up back down to 3 hp after the gnoll battle.
My point is, stuff like that is totally Do-able in C&C. Its not so do-able in other more publicized games because quite frankly, games produced by toy companies have crash helmets, air bags, anti lock breaks, and collision warning systems built into them.
I'm known to be something of a killer DM hell I may have even coined the phrase or had it thrown at me by others, but truth is I'm not, I just run from the gut-visceral conan, elric, fafrd and grey mouser mold.
All the safety features like not level draining, always eventually making a saving throw, and having something like 30 chances to avoid being totally dead without having your NPCs go and ruthlessly spike the PCs when they are down are not for me. (For the record, I prefer capture and ransome or capture and torture with a million opportunities for escape and revenge )
Anyhow sorry for the long ramble. I feel ya and I think a lot of other people are feeling your post. I too suspect a lot more will be feeling that way before the end of summer which is one of the reasons I been chained in this cage next to Siege.
C&C is fixing to come into its own in a big way (to borrow some phraseology of an arkansas troll bent). Thanks for buying the ticket, hope you enjoy the ride!
Yours Truly
Casey W. Christofferson
WTF man! WTF! I been chained to this PC for years hehe.
Yeah... wow good post newguy, welcome to the Crusade.
The quick skinny that most have given is quite legit.
Basically... I get to playtest a ton of the optional rules out of the someday forthcoming CKG.
I throw everything on the table, then we pare it back to stuff that we all really like that makes our game fun to play.
Last night the boys and girls fought 1 battle against 3 upscaled (more HD) Ogres, bodyguarding a human bard... the bard escaped and now they realize something more is going on with the bard than they first expected and that he is a dangerous hombre to be hanging out in the shell of a town full of monsters.
Next they made some plans, and deliberated tactics on how to cross into the no-mans land... and heard the cries for help of a pair of young girls trapped in the shell of a gatehouse tower.
Those that could climb up did... and found a pair of harpies who ordered them to leap off the tower because harpies like their meat tenderized...
Another quick and bloody fight ensued.
Next they realized their battle with the harpies had brought the attention of a band of about 24 gnolls led by a gnoll who fought as a fighter and had some beefcake gear.
Using the shattered buildings, terrain, cover, concealment, and good tactics the PCs made it through this battle.
All this activity took place with a party of 7 characters and took a wopping:
Ready for this?
3 and a half hours. Yup. Done.
That couldn't be done in a 3.0-3.5 session. I should know, I wrote enough of it *(3.0-3.5 stuff)*
Now... what sorta things do I do different? Well borrowing merely the "idea' as it was initially described for 4e (As opposed to how it is apparently going to be). I allow a quicker "recharge" of magic spells ... say every 3 hours game world time vs. every 8-12.
Since we have a lot of extraneous rules cut out and solve things with attribute checks that goes faster (Thanks C&C) mind you my guys still like to "spot and listen" and that wont be broken no matter what. Ok.. they roll a wisdom check for that add race and whatever bonuses to it, level if they have a class that would be "extra good" at spot and listen (like ranger, rogue, assassin, barbarian).
And I use the Paizo critical hits deck because... we like it grim and bloody.
There is a cleric of Bowbe (barbarian deity whose monniker i use) who is missing 2 fingers, has very badly damaged armor and equipment... and would have lost an eye + some con last night had he not slurped up his coveted potion of heal... and still ended up back down to 3 hp after the gnoll battle.
My point is, stuff like that is totally Do-able in C&C. Its not so do-able in other more publicized games because quite frankly, games produced by toy companies have crash helmets, air bags, anti lock breaks, and collision warning systems built into them.
I'm known to be something of a killer DM hell I may have even coined the phrase or had it thrown at me by others, but truth is I'm not, I just run from the gut-visceral conan, elric, fafrd and grey mouser mold.
All the safety features like not level draining, always eventually making a saving throw, and having something like 30 chances to avoid being totally dead without having your NPCs go and ruthlessly spike the PCs when they are down are not for me. (For the record, I prefer capture and ransome or capture and torture with a million opportunities for escape and revenge )
Anyhow sorry for the long ramble. I feel ya and I think a lot of other people are feeling your post. I too suspect a lot more will be feeling that way before the end of summer which is one of the reasons I been chained in this cage next to Siege.
C&C is fixing to come into its own in a big way (to borrow some phraseology of an arkansas troll bent). Thanks for buying the ticket, hope you enjoy the ride!
Yours Truly
Casey W. Christofferson
gideon_thorne wrote:
*snorts* I've never seen negative piling on do anyone any good in the long run. The only purpose these sorts of threads seem to have is to detract from the more relevant topics of a given forum. And they go on forever. ^_~`
Honest and for true, Gideon, I did not start this thread to bash D&D 4e or to mindlessly praise C&C (which I've only seen in preview and adventure PDF thus far anyway).
This is the third time now that I've had to say this; I'm starting feel like I'm being falsely accused here.
My frame of mind when I first posted was akin to how one feels when you see a bunch of movie preview trailers at the theatre, and then talk about them with your friends:
"Oh, that D&D 4e looks really different from the last three-and-a-half films. I don't think I'll be paying to see that one."
"Dude, it'll make millions opening weekend."
"Sure, but ... y'know ... it doesn't look like what I want in an rpg movie. Too much setup, not enough story."
"Dude, it's only a trailer -- the actual movie could still be great ..."
"Meh. I'm still gonna wait for the DVD."
"Castles & Crusades looks fun, though"
"Yeah. The trailer reminded me of what the D&D rpg movies used to be like for me ..."
"Yeah. We should go."
"Deal. Next week?"
"Sure. Now, what do you think all those miniatures in the D&D 4e trailer were about?"
"Borked if I know, dude. And why did that guy keep yelling about `marked and bloodied conditions'?"
"I really have no idea."
"It'll still make a bazillion bucks."
"Yeah but not from me. I'm going to get some Raisinets. You want anything?"
"Red licorice-like plastic, please."
"Done."
"Hurry yer ass back. The movie's about to start ..."
***
ThaNewGuy
Haha newguy
Not too many worries around here. Folks here are just SUPER excited about C&C in many cases it saved their game or their group from extinction.
I was running around Gen Con hollering "C&C saved my life" at the top of my lungs at Gen Con... sure it was a marketing ploy but it did draw a few people over to ask me what I was yammering about. Mostly I was just yelling it when aquaintences who work for or worked for WOTC were milling around to get a rise out of them.
My point in yelling it truthfully was related to the big turn off of my last couple 3.5 sessions. They were awesome fun, and we were finishing a massive campaign. The turnoff came from having to have 5 books and 2 computers running just to locate all the info needed to finish the session. And the 2x6 hour sessions it took to run it! Ouch.
Don't let anyone's overzealousness turn you off. We actually have a really friendly community around here.
We live in a sad state of the world I believe when we have to enter a new message board or chat service in a pre-guarded and pre forboded mindset, purely because so much of the Net is filled with mindless Griefers and Haters.
I think what really happened is that your post touched a raw nerve with a lot of us who have sat through the voluminous permutations of the RPG phenomenon. Most gamers are pretty educated, from our mid 20's to mid 50's and know what we like in a game and what we dont. Most are also pretty net savvy and not more than a few have friends or aquantences who work at various levels throughout the game industry.
When they hear from some of these sources words like "Total Abortion" being used in reference to a highly publicized soon to be released edition of the most popular game in RPG history, they become a little incensed and start lighting torches and sharpening pitchforks.
Again, have no worries, (here at the Trolls Boards). We like ya already. People just feel a need to vent.
Peace
Case
Not too many worries around here. Folks here are just SUPER excited about C&C in many cases it saved their game or their group from extinction.
I was running around Gen Con hollering "C&C saved my life" at the top of my lungs at Gen Con... sure it was a marketing ploy but it did draw a few people over to ask me what I was yammering about. Mostly I was just yelling it when aquaintences who work for or worked for WOTC were milling around to get a rise out of them.
My point in yelling it truthfully was related to the big turn off of my last couple 3.5 sessions. They were awesome fun, and we were finishing a massive campaign. The turnoff came from having to have 5 books and 2 computers running just to locate all the info needed to finish the session. And the 2x6 hour sessions it took to run it! Ouch.
Don't let anyone's overzealousness turn you off. We actually have a really friendly community around here.
We live in a sad state of the world I believe when we have to enter a new message board or chat service in a pre-guarded and pre forboded mindset, purely because so much of the Net is filled with mindless Griefers and Haters.
I think what really happened is that your post touched a raw nerve with a lot of us who have sat through the voluminous permutations of the RPG phenomenon. Most gamers are pretty educated, from our mid 20's to mid 50's and know what we like in a game and what we dont. Most are also pretty net savvy and not more than a few have friends or aquantences who work at various levels throughout the game industry.
When they hear from some of these sources words like "Total Abortion" being used in reference to a highly publicized soon to be released edition of the most popular game in RPG history, they become a little incensed and start lighting torches and sharpening pitchforks.
Again, have no worries, (here at the Trolls Boards). We like ya already. People just feel a need to vent.
Peace
Case
What Case said....though I think it was more of that party-pooper Gideon's wanting this thread to not be so 4E "advertising" than anything else.
Which makes sense I suppose, but arguably you couldn't talk about ANY game other than C&C without doing that....and as much as I like C&C that would be kinda dull.
"Geez Bowb, when Steve told me working for TLG gave you unlimited writing time...I didn't know he meant this!"
Back to the grind...
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot
Which makes sense I suppose, but arguably you couldn't talk about ANY game other than C&C without doing that....and as much as I like C&C that would be kinda dull.
"Geez Bowb, when Steve told me working for TLG gave you unlimited writing time...I didn't know he meant this!"
Back to the grind...
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot
Yeah, there are very few here, who are vocal, who dislike or hate 3E, its just that when you have found the perfect solution to your gaming woes, how can you not be very positive about it and not sound at the very least turned off by other systems that don't give you the game you want?
4E doesn't look like its going to be anything close to the game I want, so why would I talk positive about it?
Its simply a matter of the facts about this website. C&C gives us the game we want. 3E and 4RE don't. So we talk positive about the game we like, and not so positive about the games that we don't like as much.
There are at least two of us, I think actually more like at least 4 of us, that have hundreds of 3E books. I am open of them. Bowbe is even published under 3E. He wrote the Kubla Khan modules, co-wrote the AWESOME City fo Brass boxed set for Necromancer, with our own Peter Bradley (aka Gideon Thorne) doing the cover art, and wrote other stuff for 3E too. Many of use played 3E for YEARS. I pklayed/DMed it for about 5 years, Bowbe a year or two longer. Others around here did similar.
So at the very least your not getting a bunch of people who just looked at 3E, or just glanced at 4E and are bad mouthing them. You are reading posts by people who played 3E for about 5 years and have been playing C&C for 2 to 3 years and saying what they think.
As for 4E I have read the vast majority of blogs, posts, and news releases put out about it. I have 22+ years of gaming experience. One thing I knnow that I understand very well is game mechanics. SO I know 4E is not for me. It is still too complicated and too miniatures oriented.
Simple as that. I'll still buy the basic rules, because I am sure there will be some rules/ideas I will want to steal. Plus who knows? Someone might convince me to play in their 4E game.
But hate 3E or 4E? Too strong a word for the majority of us, probably all of us. Most of us just don't like either of them enough to use instead of C&C.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
4E doesn't look like its going to be anything close to the game I want, so why would I talk positive about it?
Its simply a matter of the facts about this website. C&C gives us the game we want. 3E and 4RE don't. So we talk positive about the game we like, and not so positive about the games that we don't like as much.
There are at least two of us, I think actually more like at least 4 of us, that have hundreds of 3E books. I am open of them. Bowbe is even published under 3E. He wrote the Kubla Khan modules, co-wrote the AWESOME City fo Brass boxed set for Necromancer, with our own Peter Bradley (aka Gideon Thorne) doing the cover art, and wrote other stuff for 3E too. Many of use played 3E for YEARS. I pklayed/DMed it for about 5 years, Bowbe a year or two longer. Others around here did similar.
So at the very least your not getting a bunch of people who just looked at 3E, or just glanced at 4E and are bad mouthing them. You are reading posts by people who played 3E for about 5 years and have been playing C&C for 2 to 3 years and saying what they think.
As for 4E I have read the vast majority of blogs, posts, and news releases put out about it. I have 22+ years of gaming experience. One thing I knnow that I understand very well is game mechanics. SO I know 4E is not for me. It is still too complicated and too miniatures oriented.
Simple as that. I'll still buy the basic rules, because I am sure there will be some rules/ideas I will want to steal. Plus who knows? Someone might convince me to play in their 4E game.
But hate 3E or 4E? Too strong a word for the majority of us, probably all of us. Most of us just don't like either of them enough to use instead of C&C.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Treebore wrote:
But hate 3E or 4E? Too strong a word for the majority of us, probably all of us. Most of us just don't like either of them enough to use instead of C&C.
Treebore, you did a great job in distilling what at least I think. Lots of folks enjoy the 3.X ruleset and I say more power to them. I tried it for about four years before I realized I wasn't enjoying DMing any more. I'd still be a player in a 3.X game and I'm sure if my friends wanted to play 4th edition and someone else wanted to DM it, I'd play that version too. However, I'm the default DM so I pick the game.
My time is so limited today with a family, a full-time job, church, and a masters program, I don't have time to experiment with different games. Castles & Crusades give me the joy I had gaming back in the '80s and that is what I wanted for my little gaming time. It also allows me to use d20 modules with little work as well as AD&D and D&D modules. For me this game is perfect.
I don't hate 3.X, but I do hate DMing 3.X
In the words of my good friend Trevor, "Hey, put an arrow in that flying mummy! What could possibly happen?"
TheNewGuy, I think it is fair to say that nobody is really accusing you personally of anything; Peter is really just watching out for the kinds of responses that generally appear after somebody says "I like C&C better than D20." It's all too easy for a thread like this to spiral into an out of control "D20 sucks!" hate fest, and that is in no way the fault of the originator of the thread; a lot of it is blowback from the vicious edition wars of 2000 or so. Context is everything.
For my part, I started back in the early 90s with HeroQuest, rapidly moved onto Advanced HeroQuest and then War Hammer Fantasy Roleplay. A bit later I discovered Basic Dungeons & Dragons and then Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. I also played a bunch of other systems through a Local Games Club, such as D6 Star Wars, Cyberpunk, Middle Earth Roleplaying, Werewolf, etc... but essentially dropped out of mainstream roleplaying sometime in the mid 90s in favour of a homebrewed skill based RPG with my regular group [i.e. childhood friends]. From time to time we played a bit of AD&D, WHFRP or whatever for a change, but I didn't buy any new RPG or WG related material for about five years or so.
During a post University trip to America in 2000, I became aware that a third edition of D&D had been released. I flipped through the PHB, chuckled, pointed it out to my friends, we laughed about such a shameless cash grab (remember, I knew nothing about what had happened to the RPG industry in the intervening years) and the neomedieval art and continued on our way.
A year or so later, my girlfriend bought me a couple of issues of KotDT; I laughed my ass off and promptly ordered a stack of KotDT Bundles of Trouble. I felt pretty nostalgic for D&D and my old Metallica fuelled games club, so I resurrected my old campaign world and ran a few games during the summer with her and some of my old group. We dug out First Quest and Dragon Strike, laughed at the Audio CD and Video respectively and generally had a good time.
In the Autumn, since we were both back at University and didn't really know many other people on campus, we decided to go along to the University Games Club, which I vaguely hoped would be populated by likeminded Metalheads. It wasn't, but luckily some other folk had had the same idea and we agreed to get together to play AD&D the following week (or rather, what I could recall of the game, as I had only brought First Quest and a couple of other items with me). That was the start of the best AD&D campaign I ever ran; it lasted for three or four years and had six regular players by the end (and a number of guest players). I was collecting KotDT by then and had bought the odd D20 supplement [A Magical Medieval Society, the Fighting Fantasy D20 conversion series (received mainly as gifts) and one of my players had a copy of the D20 3e PHB)].
By around 2006 I found myself with too much work to game regularly anymore, and I started haunting the internet in my free time, particularly the Giant in the Playground Forums. I was often, and still am occasionally, involved in debates as to the the merits of BD&D/AD&D versus D20 or somesuch thing, usually as a result of taking issue with some nonesense someone spouts about AD&D, but responding in a reasonable and none confrontational manner. At the same time I was discovering OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord and Castles & Crusades (the last of which I had seen advertised in KotDT, but never really understood the purpose of).
In the last couple of years I have come to understand BD&D/AD&D much better than I ever did then when I was first playing; I have learned a lot about C&C, D20 and what I wat from an RPG; I have purchased a bunch of C&C and OSRIC stuff to use with my House Ruled AD&D Game and ran and played in a number of game sessions (mainly either D20 or House Ruled AD&D).
When 4e (or D20 2e) was announced, I was quite interested to see what they were going to do with the brand, but had no intention of buying into the system. I am still following the rumours and tid bits off and on, but only with a view to refining my understanding of what I like and dislike about RPGs and how I can further tailor or improve my House Ruled version of BD&D/AD&D. So far I have seen precious little in D20 2e that I care for and nothing that I regard as a desirable innovation, but it continues to provide stimulating points of debate.
So, having indulged myself with this lengthy exposition, I will come to the point. Threads like this one remind me why I am grateful that the D20 OGL has made it possible to produce alternative old school compatable systems and for a company like Troll Lord Games to produce Castles & Crusades. Old School systems like Labyrinth Lord, OSRIC and Castles & Crusades are not suitable for everyone, but then niether is D20 and that is rather the point.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)
For my part, I started back in the early 90s with HeroQuest, rapidly moved onto Advanced HeroQuest and then War Hammer Fantasy Roleplay. A bit later I discovered Basic Dungeons & Dragons and then Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. I also played a bunch of other systems through a Local Games Club, such as D6 Star Wars, Cyberpunk, Middle Earth Roleplaying, Werewolf, etc... but essentially dropped out of mainstream roleplaying sometime in the mid 90s in favour of a homebrewed skill based RPG with my regular group [i.e. childhood friends]. From time to time we played a bit of AD&D, WHFRP or whatever for a change, but I didn't buy any new RPG or WG related material for about five years or so.
During a post University trip to America in 2000, I became aware that a third edition of D&D had been released. I flipped through the PHB, chuckled, pointed it out to my friends, we laughed about such a shameless cash grab (remember, I knew nothing about what had happened to the RPG industry in the intervening years) and the neomedieval art and continued on our way.
A year or so later, my girlfriend bought me a couple of issues of KotDT; I laughed my ass off and promptly ordered a stack of KotDT Bundles of Trouble. I felt pretty nostalgic for D&D and my old Metallica fuelled games club, so I resurrected my old campaign world and ran a few games during the summer with her and some of my old group. We dug out First Quest and Dragon Strike, laughed at the Audio CD and Video respectively and generally had a good time.
In the Autumn, since we were both back at University and didn't really know many other people on campus, we decided to go along to the University Games Club, which I vaguely hoped would be populated by likeminded Metalheads. It wasn't, but luckily some other folk had had the same idea and we agreed to get together to play AD&D the following week (or rather, what I could recall of the game, as I had only brought First Quest and a couple of other items with me). That was the start of the best AD&D campaign I ever ran; it lasted for three or four years and had six regular players by the end (and a number of guest players). I was collecting KotDT by then and had bought the odd D20 supplement [A Magical Medieval Society, the Fighting Fantasy D20 conversion series (received mainly as gifts) and one of my players had a copy of the D20 3e PHB)].
By around 2006 I found myself with too much work to game regularly anymore, and I started haunting the internet in my free time, particularly the Giant in the Playground Forums. I was often, and still am occasionally, involved in debates as to the the merits of BD&D/AD&D versus D20 or somesuch thing, usually as a result of taking issue with some nonesense someone spouts about AD&D, but responding in a reasonable and none confrontational manner. At the same time I was discovering OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord and Castles & Crusades (the last of which I had seen advertised in KotDT, but never really understood the purpose of).
In the last couple of years I have come to understand BD&D/AD&D much better than I ever did then when I was first playing; I have learned a lot about C&C, D20 and what I wat from an RPG; I have purchased a bunch of C&C and OSRIC stuff to use with my House Ruled AD&D Game and ran and played in a number of game sessions (mainly either D20 or House Ruled AD&D).
When 4e (or D20 2e) was announced, I was quite interested to see what they were going to do with the brand, but had no intention of buying into the system. I am still following the rumours and tid bits off and on, but only with a view to refining my understanding of what I like and dislike about RPGs and how I can further tailor or improve my House Ruled version of BD&D/AD&D. So far I have seen precious little in D20 2e that I care for and nothing that I regard as a desirable innovation, but it continues to provide stimulating points of debate.
So, having indulged myself with this lengthy exposition, I will come to the point. Threads like this one remind me why I am grateful that the D20 OGL has made it possible to produce alternative old school compatable systems and for a company like Troll Lord Games to produce Castles & Crusades. Old School systems like Labyrinth Lord, OSRIC and Castles & Crusades are not suitable for everyone, but then niether is D20 and that is rather the point.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)
Matthew wrote:
TheNewGuy, I think it is fair to say that nobody is really accusing you personally of anything; Peter is really just watching out for the kinds of responses that generally appear after somebody says "I like C&C better than D20." It's all too easy for a thread like this to spiral into an out of control "D20 sucks!" hate fest, and that is in no way the fault of the originator of the thread; a lot of it is blowback from the vicious edition wars of 2000 or so. Context is everything.
...
So, having indulged myself with this lengthy exposition, I will come to the point. Threads like this one remind me why I am grateful that the D20 OGL has made it possible to produce alternative old school compatable systems and for a company like Troll Lord Games to produce Castles & Crusades. Old School systems like Labyrinth Lord, OSRIC and Castles & Crusades are not suitable for everyone, but then niether is D20 and that is rather the point.
Very true about why Gideon is posting, Gideon doesn't "point fingers", he just tries to keep things peaceful.
As for your closing point, it made me think of how our Thursday group has brought home to me how much people are cheating themselves out of just playing one system. Thats because the Thursday group is intentionally playing different systems. WE started with "Go For Your Gun", moved on to Legend of the 5 Rings, are now doing Twilight 2000, and will be doing Traveller next. Its all been great fun, despite some rules not exactly being the best. Still the rules bring major differences in the "feel" of the game and how you play it.
So why people get on a "only this rules set is worthy of being played" kicks kind of mystifies me. Even though I like C&C best, that won't keep me from playing 4E, 3E, AD&D, BFRPG, etc... Let alone other games that I love, like L5R, Shadowrun, Traveller, Mutants and MAsterminds, Synnibar, RIFTS, Paladium Fantasy, and many others.
Maybe I should put a line in all my sigs to the effect of, "I may sound like I hate certain games, but that doesn't mean I won't play them. I love to play (list games)"
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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Lightfinger
- Skobbit
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:00 am
I've been reading all these posts with great interest.
However, 4th Edition has already been published in one form...the new Star Wars RPG.
Now, 4th ed will have more things piled up onto it than even Star Wars, but the system is there. Thus, it cannot be claimed 'we do not know the system yet', because the basics we do. Star Wars Saga RPG and the 2 preview books give me all I need to see to start forming an opinion.
Stephen Radley-McFarland's (SRM to those who know about the RPGA) statements have really solidified my position.
4th Edition is the first edition I will not be purchasing. Instead, I have purchased some of the pieces of C&C I was missing and am looking at running C&C at a couple of conventions.
However, 4th Edition has already been published in one form...the new Star Wars RPG.
Now, 4th ed will have more things piled up onto it than even Star Wars, but the system is there. Thus, it cannot be claimed 'we do not know the system yet', because the basics we do. Star Wars Saga RPG and the 2 preview books give me all I need to see to start forming an opinion.
Stephen Radley-McFarland's (SRM to those who know about the RPGA) statements have really solidified my position.
4th Edition is the first edition I will not be purchasing. Instead, I have purchased some of the pieces of C&C I was missing and am looking at running C&C at a couple of conventions.
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gideon_thorne
- Maukling
- Posts: 6176
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
- Contact:
TheNewGuy wrote:
Honest and for true, Gideon, I did not start this thread to bash D&D 4e or to mindlessly praise C&C (which I've only seen in preview and adventure PDF thus far anyway).
This is the third time now that I've had to say this; I'm starting feel like I'm being falsely accused here.
I was speaking in general though. Hence my not jumping into the thread until later when the general turn of conversation wandered into the usual piling on the as yet to be published new edition.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
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slimykuotoan
- Greater Lore Drake
- Posts: 3669
- Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:00 am
- Location: Nine Hells
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old school gamer
- Red Cap
- Posts: 259
- Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:00 am
Bowbe wrote:
*plops down in the cage next to Sieg's*
WTF man! WTF! I been chained to this PC for years hehe.
Yeah... wow good post newguy, welcome to the Crusade.
The quick skinny that most have given is quite legit.
Basically... I get to playtest a ton of the optional rules out of the someday forthcoming CKG.
I throw everything on the table, then we pare it back to stuff that we all really like that makes our game fun to play.
Last night the boys and girls fought 1 battle against 3 upscaled (more HD) Ogres, bodyguarding a human bard... the bard escaped and now they realize something more is going on with the bard than they first expected and that he is a dangerous hombre to be hanging out in the shell of a town full of monsters.
Next they made some plans, and deliberated tactics on how to cross into the no-mans land... and heard the cries for help of a pair of young girls trapped in the shell of a gatehouse tower.
Those that could climb up did... and found a pair of harpies who ordered them to leap off the tower because harpies like their meat tenderized...
Another quick and bloody fight ensued.
Next they realized their battle with the harpies had brought the attention of a band of about 24 gnolls led by a gnoll who fought as a fighter and had some beefcake gear.
Using the shattered buildings, terrain, cover, concealment, and good tactics the PCs made it through this battle.
All this activity took place with a party of 7 characters and took a wopping:
Ready for this?
3 and a half hours. Yup. Done.
That couldn't be done in a 3.0-3.5 session. I should know, I wrote enough of it *(3.0-3.5 stuff)*
Now... what sorta things do I do different? Well borrowing merely the "idea' as it was initially described for 4e (As opposed to how it is apparently going to be). I allow a quicker "recharge" of magic spells ... say every 3 hours game world time vs. every 8-12.
Since we have a lot of extraneous rules cut out and solve things with attribute checks that goes faster (Thanks C&C) mind you my guys still like to "spot and listen" and that wont be broken no matter what. Ok.. they roll a wisdom check for that add race and whatever bonuses to it, level if they have a class that would be "extra good" at spot and listen (like ranger, rogue, assassin, barbarian).
And I use the Paizo critical hits deck because... we like it grim and bloody.
There is a cleric of Bowbe (barbarian deity whose monniker i use) who is missing 2 fingers, has very badly damaged armor and equipment... and would have lost an eye + some con last night had he not slurped up his coveted potion of heal... and still ended up back down to 3 hp after the gnoll battle.
My point is, stuff like that is totally Do-able in C&C. Its not so do-able in other more publicized games because quite frankly, games produced by toy companies have crash helmets, air bags, anti lock breaks, and collision warning systems built into them.
I'm known to be something of a killer DM hell I may have even coined the phrase or had it thrown at me by others, but truth is I'm not, I just run from the gut-visceral conan, elric, fafrd and grey mouser mold.
All the safety features like not level draining, always eventually making a saving throw, and having something like 30 chances to avoid being totally dead without having your NPCs go and ruthlessly spike the PCs when they are down are not for me. (For the record, I prefer capture and ransome or capture and torture with a million opportunities for escape and revenge )
Anyhow sorry for the long ramble. I feel ya and I think a lot of other people are feeling your post. I too suspect a lot more will be feeling that way before the end of summer which is one of the reasons I been chained in this cage next to Siege.
C&C is fixing to come into its own in a big way (to borrow some phraseology of an arkansas troll bent). Thanks for buying the ticket, hope you enjoy the ride!
Yours Truly
Casey W. Christofferson
I completely agree. It's much more fun to torture and terrorize your PC's than kill them. Killin' is easy. Putting them through hell is much more fun.