PAIZO to continue with 3E!! (Sorry Peter)

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Post by Julian Grimm »

gideon_thorne wrote:
Just to the wizards prime stat.

Ahhh I see. I have Read Magic tied to Int. and Detect magic tied to Wis. I can see Identify being tied to Int. as well. Or would it be more prudent to tie all of these to Int. and be done with it?

Healing as and ability is something I am going to tinker with. I see it as tied to Wis and usable a certain number of times per day depending on level.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

Julian Grimm wrote:
Ahhh I see. I have Read Magic tied to Int. and Detect magic tied to Wis. I can see Identify being tied to Int. as well. Or would it be more prudent to tie all of these to Int. and be done with it?

Healing as and ability is something I am going to tinker with. I see it as tied to Wis and usable a certain number of times per day depending on level.

I might even try applying that percentage system I babbled about in the Chaotic Rules forum.
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Post by Treebore »

You know I just spent a while on the new forums for discussing the rules changes and improvements that could be made. I read a number of cool sounding ideas that could work in C&C. You might want to read them too, just for ideas and inspiration.
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Post by TheNewGuy »

Found this over on the Paizo messageboards section discussing the Pathfinder Alpha Playtest doc.

It seems that the Healing/Turning thing is not "undead powered" after all; it is as pdiddy and meself originally thought/hoped: it's a "positive energy" radius effect. Turning undead will trigger it, but a cleric could also "burn off" turning uses at will to invoke the effect without actually turning anything.

Pathfinder's lead designer writes:
Quote:
Hey there everybody,

Although the name will soon be changed, this power was meant to be used as an alternative healing source for the party. Healing is too vital a commodity in the game to reside in only one source (spells), and this gives each party a fixed, reliable amount of healing each day. Add a paladin to the group and you get even more.

The key here is that the cleric will actually be able to adventure longer and cast more of his spells for their intended purpose with this rule. Which is a good thing.

Give it a try and let me know what you think.

Jason Bulmahn

Lead Designer

For whatever it's worth to the curious,

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Post by Julian Grimm »

Interesting concept. I think it might be a good idea for someone to open up a thread dedicated to alternative healing mechanics in the rules forum so that we can get back to the more general Pathfinder discussion.
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Post by Dyne »

I hope this works out for Paizo, I really like them as a business. Heck, if I ever decide to get back into roleplaying games, I just might pick up some of their Pathfinder stuff.

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Post by jaguar451 »

Julian Grimm wrote:
Interesting concept. I think it might be a good idea for someone to open up a thread dedicated to alternative healing mechanics in the rules forum so that we can get back to the more general Pathfinder discussion.

You start one yet?

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Post by Julian Grimm »

Not yet, I will later on tonight though.
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Re: PAIZO to continue with 3E!! (Sorry Peter)

Post by Pdiddy »

Treebore wrote:
I personally am glad to hear they are sticking with 3E and doing their own rules set to continue such support. Mostly because I think 3E will be easier to use for C&C than 4E. Why do I think that? Because I am going to have to throw out a lot more of 4E to trim it down into what I like for C&C.

Still, I will find out because Necromancer Games is going to be Paizo's "4E branch".

Anyways, very cool news.

I do agree that it is very cool news. I really enjoy the stuff Paizo has been doing.

But I am not too sure yet which version will be easier to convert.

3E - by cutting out the un-necessary stuff you can get down to a C&C analog

4E - much simpler stat blocks but is it possible to get to a C&C analog? Not a huge deal though as you can just use a replacement monster from a different edition or M&T. Given the homebrewed 4E adventures showing up on Enworld it doesn't look like this will be too difficult. A kobold with a bow sounds like a "kobold archer" to me. But maybe a bigger question - How will the rule changes impact adventure design by publishers? One of the stated reasons for Paizo to keep using 3.5 (or their version) is because they felt they could not tell the kind of stories they wanted with the new version.

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Post by Harry Joy »

Seen at ENWorld today:

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Post by Treebore »

Harry Joy wrote:
Seen at ENWorld today:

LOL!! Very good humor!
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Post by TheNewGuy »

Harry Joy wrote:
Seen at ENWorld today:

And Harry Joy lives up to his surname yet again by bringing us good humor. Thanks, Harry!
The D&D 4e speculation here has certainly been interesting, in terms of "Will 4e actually be a marked departure from the D&D-style fantasy rpgs, like C&C, that we've known thus far?"

Yes, I know that (especially here) there are people who fiercely prefer their chosen brand of C&C/D&D, but I think most of us can agree that C&C, D&D v. 1, 2, and 3.x all still share the same fundamental gaming DNA, regardless of induced mutations, in the same way that a Porsche, a BMW, a Ford Escort, and a Prius are all still recognizably automobiles, despite their obvious differences.

The question has been, then, "Is D&D 4e going to be a hang glider? It looks like a hang glider from here ..."

More seriously, is 4e going to change the meaning of the term "Dungeons & Dragons" from "a role-playing game with strategy and optional miniatures" to "a miniatures game with strategy and optional role-playing"?

The verdict's still pending, of course, and I know that.

What's been on my mind recently, however, is what happens after 4e releases?

It occurs to me that we'll likely see one of three broad scenarios, based (of course) on how popular the game proves to be after release.

Please note that by 'after release', I mean anywhere up to two years. WotC's parent, Hasbro, being a megacorporation, has the time and resources to "wait and see" how this latest sales move plays out.

I'm also aware that a large portion of the people who howled against D&D 2e and 3.x eventually bought in to one or the other game version -- I suspect Hasbro's people will remember this also, and wait for the dust to settle.

I mean, I fully expect to pick up at least the 4e Player's Handbook at some point myself -- I just don't plan on pre-ordering it, or rushing out to buy it ASAP. I also don't expect to do anything with it other than read it, but you get my point, I'm sure ...

So, the three broad scenarios following D&D 4e's release:



It's a big hit, just like Hasbro hoped. Gamers buy it, but so do the other demographics Hasbro has said they're aiming for: computer/console gamers and the ever-elusive 'mainstream'.

The result?

Tons of supplementary material (adventures, sourcebooks, etc), followed by 4.5 relatively quickly, to keep the frenzy alive, and 5.0 when the marketing well starts to run dry.

Probabilty?

Unlikely. As I've said elsewhere, what we've seen of 4e suggests to me that -- while Hasbro may intend to attract new customer demographics with the changes to D&D in 4e -- the fundamental nature of those changes (and what appears to be increased entry-level complexity in gameplay) makes me wonder if they'll be busy trying to retain the customer base they've got right now.



It's a moderate, circumstantial success. Enough gamers buy the products from sheer curiousity that Hasbro makes a profit over time. Enough gamers (and others) like D&D 4e sufficiently well (some, precisely because it's NOT like previous editions of the game) that they become hardcore fans, and support 4e rigorously and vocally.

The result?

Less supplementary stuff, because Hasbro doesn't snag the mainstream audience the way they'd hoped, and many gamers are neutral or indifferent to 4e as a concept (even if they buy the core materials).

4.5 comes less rapidly, and may incorporate a lot of "optional" rules designed to re-introduce elements of earlier D&D editions into 4e play, in the hopes of enticing those players who would want that.

5.0 is designed and marketed as "the best of both worlds" in an attempt to unify and reinvigorate the fanbase.

Probability?

My money's on this one, unless there's a lot more "D&D common ground" incorporated into 4e that we haven't seen yet (always possible).

The thing about megacorporations like Hasbro is that they have the time and the money to play out these longer-term marketing gambits (anybody else here remember "New Coke" ?).

Hasbro's not invested in D&D as anything other than a franchise, so they try this current strategy to see if it will indeed "grow the market share", and if it doesn't, they fall back to safe ground and concentrate on solidifying the market territory they already hold, or can win back with a little corporate diplomacy ("No, really, 4.5 and 5.0 will fix all that. We promise').



It's a clear flop. Current gamers turn away in large enough numbers that even Hasbro accounting notices, and other potential customer demographics ignore the game as if it were made up entirely of nerd cooties.

The result?

4.5 comes out as quickly as humanly possible, and is pointedly revisionist in tone and intent, moving the rules as far away from 4.0 as can be done in one volume. This is an interim attempt to salvage good will with the gamer fanbase, while lining Hasbro's pockets at the same time. Every one who hated 4.0 might buy 4.5 if you promise that it "fixes" those rules.

5.0 is announced very quickly after 4.5 runs its sales course. 5.0 is saturation-marketed as "A Return To Glory!"(tm) up until release. Its rules veer sharply back toward some version of the pre-4.0 rules.

Probability?

I don't think it's likely that 4e will flop dead on release. Hasbro looks at sales. If every curious gamer out there buys the 4.0 Players Handbook, even just to look at it, then that's profit to Hasbro; that's a "Yes" vote in the way they poll success.

I think enough gamers will buy enough 4.0 products to prevent the line from becoming a total failure. People may well hate what they see, or complain bitterly, but -- in the end -- you vote with your money. Your money says "yes" even if your mouth (and your posting fingers) say "no".

I do think D&D 4.0 will make enough money, just from initial gamer curiousity, to prevent it from reading as an unqualified flop in Hasbro's estimation.

I'm not saying that 4.0 will necessarily have sustained or ongoing strong sales past the initial wave of "curiousity buying", merely that the `first wave' will generate enough profits to keep the game out of the "utter flop" category.

Whatever happens, I'm relieved that I'l be here with "Castles & Crusades" instead. You may have noticed that, whatever may come of D&D, the likely end results still include more future versions of revised rulebooks to buy.

This seems likely to me; D&D as a "McFranchise"

Lastly, I am no psychic, and I'm only speculating here for friendly entertainment. I could be utterly wrong in everything I've said, and I readily acknowledge that.

So, if you're looking for an Argument, that's the door down the hall (as every Monty Python fan knows). This isn't even Contradiction, it's only speculation and idle discussion.

Comment as you like, friends, but let's not pretend that any of what I've written here is real, significant, or that lives depend on it. Do we have a deal?
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Post by Zudrak »

I'd actually put my money on "Hasbro tries to sell off the D&D brand and WotC" within 5 years. Just a hunch. I've been wrong before, but what's a hypothesis if you don't go with your gut?
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Post by Treebore »

I've decided not to care what happens with 4E. Its not a rules set that I find exciting or interesting. Their improvements are a complete wash with me.

What do I predict? Well, its hard to say, but my speculation is that it won't be the success the WOTC employees are hoping for.

I believe with absolute certainty they will NOT pull in a new demographic. The only new demographic they will pull in is people who played D&D previously to find out if 4E is the Holy Grail of gaming they have been looking for. It won't be.

Why do I believe so certainly that they won't pull in a new demographic? Because I know for a fact the people in the demographics they are hoping to pull in HATE to read.
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Post by TheNewGuy »

Zudrak wrote:
I'd actually put my money on "Hasbro tries to sell off the D&D brand and WotC" within 5 years. Just a hunch. I've been wrong before, but what's a hypothesis if you don't go with your gut?

It sure could go that way, Zudrak, particularly if this "mainstream push" for D&D 4e is the brainchild of some people higher up at Hasbro. If 4e "fails the test", so to speak, they may see it as more economically worthwhile to sell off D&D while the "goodwill value" (a term meaning reputation-based earning potential) is still high.

Most major sports teams have a high "goodwill value", for example. The team may be deep in debt, and not have won a game since John Madden was in preschool, but because it's a major league team, it has a built in earning potential value, regardless of what its current accounts say, so it's still going to cost you to buy the team.

But I digress. Apologies ...

If the D&D 4e push is the initiative of some Hasbro mid-level types, however, who are trying to earn a promotion and/or their year-end bonus by "proving that they're managing" (you wouldn't believe how much of this goes on in the high corporate world -- or maybe you would), then if 4e doesn't make a big financial splash, they'll just skulk off to "manage" something else before the big bosses upstairs notice what's going on in one division asset.

I have to wonder, appropriately for this thread, how many milliseconds it would be before Paizo called their bank to see if they could finance buying D&D if it ever went on sale? Presuming the Troll Lords didn't get there first, of course ...
Thanks for the thoughts,

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Post by serleran »

Scenario 4> There is no 4.0 because they never finish the GSL and those who paid the 5K upfront to get it, sue.

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Post by Omote »

Scenario 5> Who cares?

No, really. There are some gamers on this message board and other like message boards that have a curiosity about the 4.0 game, but look at the vast majority... none are seeming to bite. As for the hardcore 3E players, of which I know many, I would say that lest then 30% are buying into 4E. Many (let's say about 30%) of the 3E crowd that I am familiar with are flat out refusing to get into 4E because there is so much more mileage to gain from 3E.

-O
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Post by gideon_thorne »

TheNewGuy wrote:
I have to wonder, appropriately for this thread, how many milliseconds it would be before Paizo called their bank to see if they could finance buying D&D if it ever went on sale? Presuming the Troll Lords didn't get there first, of course ...
Thanks for the thoughts,

TheNewGuy

I doubt Paizo would be able to afford it. I know TLG certainly can't. Nor do we need to. We have C&C, why do we need D&D?
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Post by Zudrak »

TheNewGuy wrote:


I have to wonder, appropriately for this thread, how many milliseconds it would be before Paizo called their bank to see if they could finance buying D&D if it ever went on sale? Presuming the Troll Lords didn't get there first, of course ...
Thanks for the thoughts,

TheNewGuy

Only time will tell, but I believe the two co.'s you mention would treat D&D better.
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Post by Zudrak »

gideon_thorne wrote:
I doubt Paizo would be able to afford it. I know TLG certainly can't. Nor do we need to. We have C&C, why do we need D&D?

Good point, Peter. D&D is not what it was nor will it ever be again. C&C is what 3e should have been, as one poster's signature says around here.
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"Rules not understood should have appropriate questions directed to the publisher; disputes with the Dungeon Master are another matter entirely. THE REFEREE IS THE FINAL ARBITER OF ALL AFFAIRS OF HIS OR HER CAMPAIGN."
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Post by Julian Grimm »

Scenario 6> Return of small press popularity.

4e releases but due to the OGL and restrictions of the GSL many companies drop production of 4e related material and go back to using the OGL or create their own house systems.

C&C gains in popularity, Goodman Games continues with OGL DCC's but goes to C&C (TLG and GG merge creating GoodLord Games ), Green Ronin drops all production of OGL and GSL material and sticks with T20, Necromancer suffers some but adopts T20 or makes it's own house system (Possibly adopts Pathfinder?).

Paizo grabs a good share of the disgruntled 3e market that did not move to 4e, C&C or T20. The new house systems not based on the OGL prove innovative and refreshing. Gaming gets stronger as 4e and WOTC loose ground in this new wave of gaming.

WOTC begins auctioning off D&D worlds to stay afloat until a replacement for 4e can be made. Some sales recover with reprints of 1e as a viable game but not enough. A reputable company buys Greyhawk and produces Gary Gygax's Greyhawk. A reboot of the setting to Gary's '83 set with additional material gleaned from Gary's personal notes. It is a runaway success.

The fluxing of t he market occours. Some companies go under or merge. WOTC goes up for sale or is dissolved. In the years following D&D is finally sold off and production begins on an edition that follows the original two editions of the game. Seeing similarities between it and another popular game a deal is struck and in the fall of that year Castles and Crusades changes it's title to Dungeons and Dragons.
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Post by seskis281 »

Zudrak wrote:
Good point, Peter. D&D is not what it was nor will it ever be again. C&C is what 3e should have been, as one poster's signature says around here.

Ya, C&C as a system is Fine with me.... earlier editions aren't gone, they still exist any time one wishes to pull out the books. To me, the advantage of having a signature line without the D&D moniker is that it CAN be something new at the same time it connects to an old school feel. Right now, the D&D brand comes with all the baggage of edition wars, etc. I still refer to "D&D" in the generic sense of FRPG, same as we said "Coke" in the south as people in the north say soda or pop, as in "were gonna D&D this weekend") but I think TLG is fine to stick with C&C as its primary system and to continue to build LA as a secondary focus.

Now, I think it'd be cool if TLG could ever get their hands on a few certain parts of the D&D IP -

Greyhawk or Mystara, for example
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Post by Zudrak »

seskis281 wrote:
Ya, C&C as a system is Fine with me.... earlier editions aren't gone, they still exist any time one wishes to pull out the books. To me, the advantage of having a signature line without the D&D moniker is that it CAN be something new at the same time it connects to an old school feel. Right now, the D&D brand comes with all the baggage of edition wars, etc. I still refer to "D&D" in the generic sense of FRPG, same as we said "Coke" in the south as people in the north say soda or pop, as in "were gonna D&D this weekend") but I think TLG is fine to stick with C&C as its primary system and to continue to build LA as a secondary focus.

Now, I think it'd be cool if TLG could ever get their hands on a few certain parts of the D&D IP -
Greyhawk or Mystara, for example



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Psalm 73:26

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

"Rules not understood should have appropriate questions directed to the publisher; disputes with the Dungeon Master are another matter entirely. THE REFEREE IS THE FINAL ARBITER OF ALL AFFAIRS OF HIS OR HER CAMPAIGN."
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Post by Omote »

Double *thumbs up*! Pretty much the only worlds I ever want to play in are Greyhawk and Mystara (besides my own of course).
-O
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Post by seskis281 »

Oh, just an addendum....

I happen to love Aihrde, so in posting the above I would in no way want to denegrate what is already a really cool setting.

But either of these would also bring many more to C&C if they ever were rescued.

P.S. The reality check is, as we all know, that Greyhawk won't go anywhere unless Hasbro starts dumping properties. I believe Erik Mona and Paizo made an attempt at Greyhawk to no avail before beginning the Pathfinder setting, and discussion of whether small companies could ever afford the rights even when WotC is burying the setting have already pretty much revealed the near impossibility her.

As for Mystara, I know less about the rights, so I couldn't say where this world stands in the publishing community.

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Harry Joy
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Post by Harry Joy »

serleran wrote:
Scenario 4> There is no 4.0 because they never finish the GSL and those who paid the 5K upfront to get it, sue.

Publishers actually did pay??
I never saw anyone actually own up to ponying up, although I must admit I read ENWorld nowhere as closely as I used to.

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gideon_thorne
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Post by gideon_thorne »

Harry Joy wrote:
Publishers actually did pay??
I never saw anyone actually own up to ponying up, although I must admit I read ENWorld nowhere as closely as I used to.

No one's paid yet. They get to see the initial draft of the GSL or some such thing before they do.

Complete waste of time and money if you ask me.
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TheNewGuy
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Post by TheNewGuy »

Harry Joy wrote:
Publishers actually did pay??
I never saw anyone actually own up to ponying up, although I must admit I read ENWorld nowhere as closely as I used to.

If I remember rightly, Hasbro/WotC offered exclusive GSL (their revised semi-closed source) liscences to a "select" group of third party publishers for the low, low price of $5000 US.

The exclusivity comes from the fact that, from the time 4e releases in June, until January 2009, only Hasbro/WotC and the paid liscensees will be authorized to release 4e material for sale.

After that time (I think it's Jan 2009, perhaps a little later, this is where memory fails me) WotC will then release the GSL liscense, for free, to the masses.

Where this gets sticky, as Peter B. suggests, is that June is coming up fast-ish from a publishing perspective and the GSL liscense still hasn't been finished, or released to the people willing to pay $5K for an early crack at it.

And that's what I know about that, Harry,

TheNewGuy

serleran
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Post by serleran »

I'm still kinda looking to see what they do with traps. The little write-up before wasn't all inspiring, but it was at least interesting. So, if that's done right, I might find something worth stealing now and then.

Harry Joy
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Post by Harry Joy »

TheNewGuy wrote:
...Where this gets sticky, as Peter B. suggests, is that June is coming up fast-ish from a publishing perspective and the GSL liscense still hasn't been finished, or released to the people willing to pay $5K for an early crack at it.

And that's what I know about that, Harry,

TheNewGuy

I know all of that. I thought that serleran was saying that some publishers had ALREADY paid. I recall the list of publishers that WotC pitched the early release package to, and not a one of them seemed the kind to just have $5000 lying around. Lots of well known and popular publishers, but none of them exactly rich.

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