Why? Whats the appeal?

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Treebore
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Post by Treebore »

Rigon wrote:
Yeah, I know. I probably have to start throwing dragons at you now just to make things interesting.

R-

Well, baby dragons...

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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Gleemax Jr
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Post by Gleemax Jr »

i love people saying "the fighter is great" and then proceed to explain all the modification to it. quite ironic. especially if the other classes are not getting the same treatment. in that case, it only further cements the OPs point that the fighter seems boring. because it is.

so, rather than pat yourself on the back for how awesome your tweaks are, why not just say how the fighter actually is?

does it really need all that "crunch" to be useful?

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gideon_thorne
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Post by gideon_thorne »

Gleemax Jr wrote:
i love people saying "the fighter is great" and then proceed to explain all the modification to it. quite ironic. especially if the other classes are not getting the same treatment. in that case, it only further cements the OPs point that the fighter seems boring. because it is.

so, rather than pat yourself on the back for how awesome your tweaks are, why not just say how the fighter actually is?

does it really need all that "crunch" to be useful?

Ah.. but I for one have adjusted all the other classes as well because it suits MY game to do so.

The classes, as written, suit the guys who wrote them. And they also suit other folks who also leave them alone.

Not everyone is modifying the class because there is an inherent flaw in the design.

Note, I answered the question, initially, as if the fighter were unmodified and only interpreting that which was inherently in the book. ^_~`
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Treebore
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Post by Treebore »

Gleemax Jr wrote:
i love people saying "the fighter is great" and then proceed to explain all the modification to it. quite ironic. especially if the other classes are not getting the same treatment. in that case, it only further cements the OPs point that the fighter seems boring. because it is.

so, rather than pat yourself on the back for how awesome your tweaks are, why not just say how the fighter actually is?

does it really need all that "crunch" to be useful?

My opinion is based on just the first four levels of play. No modifiers/house rules applied except for being a Minotaur. I just made 5th level a session or so ago. I didn't even know about the +2 to H and D until tonight. The Combat Dominance rule has only been used the session before last.

So my opinion is based on playing the fighter pretty much straight from the book.

It rocks.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Rigon
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Post by Rigon »

I didn't feel that the fighter was boring or weak compared to the other classes, I made changes that best fit with what I wanted the fighter to look like. I've made changes to most of the classes and that's only because I haven't gotten around to the ones I haven't changed.

And having played a RAW fighter, I can say that they still out shine every other class when it comes to combat.

R-
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Tank
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Post by Tank »

Gleemax Jr wrote:
i love people saying "the fighter is great" and then proceed to explain all the modification to it. quite ironic. especially if the other classes are not getting the same treatment. in that case, it only further cements the OPs point that the fighter seems boring. because it is.

so, rather than pat yourself on the back for how awesome your tweaks are, why not just say how the fighter actually is?

does it really need all that "crunch" to be useful?

For our first campaign, we played C&C "out of the box" with no houserules except critical hits. And let me tell you that the half-orc fighter and the halfling illusionist kicked some major heinie for the entire campaign, which covered levels 1-5ish. It was the bearded axe/color spray combination that did in plenty of baddies. The thing is, you only get to color spray so often, but the axe works every time.

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BLOOD AXE
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Post by BLOOD AXE »

Omote wrote:
What's the appeal you ask? Chicks, man. Chicks.

-O

A Charm Person or Hold Person spell works wonders too.
Or gold, lotsa gold.....
I think the Fighter is fine as is. Well, except Combat Dominance could use a tweek.
To defend: This is the Pact.
But when life loses its value,
and is taken for naught -
then the Pact is to Avenge.

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Fiffergrund
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Post by Fiffergrund »

My answer to this question is always "do the math."

The fighter BTB is the best all-around combatant, period. "Boring" is subjective. The fighter is no less effective just because a given player doesn't see fancy "buttons" to push.

*sigh*

I'd really *love* it if we could avoid having this discussion every month with someone new who doesn't yet see the forest for the trees. I'm tempted to post a sticky thread with a mathematical proof of the fighter's superiority just to end the debate.
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bighara
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Post by bighara »

re: tweaking the fighter. Other than the combat dominance shift (HD1d8 instead of 1d6) I made no changes. Even without that change, the fighter is quite puissant. I only boosted the HD type for CD because I thought the fighter should be able to use it on orcs.
Now, that said, I did make a simplified feat system to use with C&C, and some of those feats are combat oriented, but I made a list of general feats as well as class-specific feats for all classes, not just the fighter.

Also something to remember about C&C is that it is made to be tweakable (it even says so in the book). It is a perfectly balanced and fun game right out of the box, but house ruling is quick and easy. That's why so many folks do it. Much like Classic D&D (as opposed to AD&D), the system takes little to no harm from gamers adjusting things to fit their game and their style.
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BLOOD AXE
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Post by BLOOD AXE »

Even if you would sticky it,they wouldnt read it & they'd post anyway. Its the same on every forum,the same questions repeat,over & over & over....
To defend: This is the Pact.
But when life loses its value,
and is taken for naught -
then the Pact is to Avenge.

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Fiffergrund
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Post by Fiffergrund »

BLOOD AXE wrote:
Even if you would sticky it,they wouldnt read it & they'd post anyway. Its the same on every forum,the same questions repeat,over & over & over....

True, but at least that thread could be easily linked and we wouldn't have to redo these things everytime someone gets a bee in their bonnet!
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gideon_thorne
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Post by gideon_thorne »

Fiffergrund wrote:
I'd really *love* it if we could avoid having this discussion every month with someone new who doesn't yet see the forest for the trees. I'm tempted to post a sticky thread with a mathematical proof of the fighter's superiority just to end the debate.

How about putting a 'rationale of the classes' bit in the Keeper's Advice forum eh?

Then, anyone who asks such a common question can be referred to that post?
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serleran
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Post by serleran »

Wait... you're saying there is a reason things are like they are?

I don't believe.

*rolls d20...*

Made my check by 13.

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Fiffergrund
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Post by Fiffergrund »

gideon_thorne wrote:
How about putting a 'rationale of the classes' bit in the Keeper's Advice forum eh?

Then, anyone who asks such a common question can be referred to that post?

That's a good idea. That's where it belongs anyway. If I have some time I'll try to get the ball rolling. If.
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