Troll Lord Games

Question for all the big brains here about "Railroading". Ah, you're saying...Now I get the dumb title of the post. (yeah, that and it's April 1st. )

So anyway, here's the sitch: I've got two young ones that I'm teaching to play C&C, they come across giant trapdoor spiders. Now here's the cool part, at the bottom of one of the holes, covered in webs, is the skeleton of a dwarven warrior. (Found on a wisdom siege check...or "search") The only thing visible is the pommel of his now rusting sword...

On his finger lies a family ring. It's worth quite a lot. But that's just it's surface value. It's also a clue to an old abandoned dwarven colony. The door...is even further down the spider-hole.

But, my players didn't search the holes. Remember, they're new at this... It didn't dawn on them that spiders might have treasure. And normally they'd be right, except that the spider's victims might.

Now as they were walking away I almost had one of the NPC's say..."Hey, shouldn't we check around?" But I couldn't bring myself to do it. It just felt like railroading. And then I began thinking...but how would they know? How would they start down the glorious road of, slay and loot?

While the NPCs "could" be higher level and therefore more experienced, they're not. So that was one reason. The other was that one of them was injured and didn't feel like hanging around any longer.

Suggestions?
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`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves

Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:

All mimsy were the borogoves,

And the mome raths outgrabe.'

Lewis Carroll

I would think in that situation, where the players are new to roleplaying, simple hints like "hey, shouldn't we look around?" are perfectly fine. Now, if the players were old hands at gaming, then if they decided not to look, then that's their own fault.

R-
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Rigon o' the Lakelands, Baron of The Castles & Crusades Society
The Book of the Mind

I agree with Rigon. If they are newbies then as a CK it is perfectly acceptable to give a hint now and then. It could be as simple as a generic piece of advice. "After killing a monster always check its lair for loot. You never know if there is treasure to be found."

New roleplayers sometimes need help learning the ropes.

"As you look into the spiders tunnel, you think you seem a slight glimmer, as of light on metal."

That should be enough. Sometimes you gotta hook em a bit.

I agree with Bloodaxe that a "flavor text" solution would have been best, but I think that they are now past that point in the game? If they are heading back to the tavern (I assume you have a tavern!), then have them tell their story, and have a grizzled old campaigner tell his story of fighting spiders and finding treasure in their nest, and then ask what they found at the bottom of the hole ...

Yes, a railroad, but also a teaching device, and you haven't really broken character. I do similar things for my 8 and 11 year olds.

Cheers

"I do similar things for my 8 and 11 year olds."

Err ... in play, of course! I rarely send them to kill spiders, and they only get to go to the tavern when properly supervised!

jfall wrote:
Question for all the big brains here about "Railroading". Ah, you're saying...Now I get the dumb title of the post. (yeah, that and it's April 1st. )

So anyway, here's the sitch: I've got two young ones that I'm teaching to play C&C, they come across giant trapdoor spiders. Now here's the cool part, at the bottom of one of the holes, covered in webs, is the skeleton of a dwarven warrior. (Found on a wisdom siege check...or "search") The only thing visible is the pommel of his now rusting sword...

On his finger lies a family ring. It's worth quite a lot. But that's just it's surface value. It's also a clue to an old abandoned dwarven colony. The door...is even further down the spider-hole.

But, my players didn't search the holes. Remember, they're new at this... It didn't dawn on them that spiders might have treasure. And normally they'd be right, except that the spider's victims might.

Now as they were walking away I almost had one of the NPC's say..."Hey, shouldn't we check around?" But I couldn't bring myself to do it. It just felt like railroading. And then I began thinking...but how would they know? How would they start down the glorious road of, slay and loot?

While the NPCs "could" be higher level and therefore more experienced, they're not. So that was one reason. The other was that one of them was injured and didn't feel like hanging around any longer.

Suggestions?

Your helping them find loot and potential story hooks are not railroading. Forcing them to follow the story hook is when it becomes railroading.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

catenwolde wrote:
I agree with Bloodaxe that a "flavor text" solution would have been best, but I think that they are now past that point in the game? If they are heading back to the tavern (I assume you have a tavern!), then have them tell their story, and have a grizzled old campaigner tell his story of fighting spiders and finding treasure in their nest, and then ask what they found at the bottom of the hole ...

Yes, a railroad, but also a teaching device, and you haven't really broken character. I do similar things for my 8 and 11 year olds.

Cheers

Ah ha! Now that's a gem right there... The old grizzled adventurer angle. I like it. Yeah, they're actually playing Keep on the Borderlands. C&C style of course. So yeah, there's a tavern.

One of the other reasons that I might have hesitated was that the spiders were a "break" between trying to liberate the Hob's section of the Caves of Chaos. Sometimes kids get a bit derailed....another "train" analogy for ya.

But you know what, in retrospect, I don't think that matters. Just like any adventure, you throw out hooks when they come across them and then allow the players to shape the story.

You'll have to forgive me. CKing for kids is a whole different experience. It's almost as if I'm relearning the ropes. It's actually a really neat experience. Starting fresh like this is a whole lot of fun.

Just in case you're interested I've posted a bit about the game over at Dragonsfoot: http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=27593

Thanks to all of you for your wisdom. I appreciate it. You guys are great.
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`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves

Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:

All mimsy were the borogoves,

And the mome raths outgrabe.'

Lewis Carroll

Railroad when you have to. Be linear when needed. New players will catch on to what you are saying and then eventually start searching things for themselves.

Plus, it no fun to have the MUST SEE CLUE go unnoticed. Even with and experienced party of gamers, this can happen from time to time. No need to ruin an adventure/story becuase the PCs didn't check one area... throw them a bone and make the adventure/story continue.

-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Even in the worst case scenario, you can still use your prepared material. Plug into some new encounter. Maybe in one of the Caves of Chaos, the PCs stumble upon the ring and discover that there is a hidden tunnel in the Caves leading to the abandoned dwarven stronghold.

re: OP, not RR in my opinion. Especially with newbies/kids.

Also, it's always a good idea for the PCs to have more than one way to accomplish something. You don't want the dungeon to grind to a halt because they didn't find the secret door. Have a second entrance, or they can find a partial map showing the door, or something.

My guys are on the youngish-side and new to RPGs. I actually have a character that I play (who is a rogue) that "suggests" stuff now and then, usually in keeping with his character. I don't consider it "rails" while they are learning the game.

However, I also don't shove too much in their face; only when there's something that will truly help them learn to play better. And if they miss something they've already been exposed to on the second go-round, tough for them.
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Laudir Agus Mir

I think Tree makes a valid point -- railroading occurs when you force players down a path; letting them know a path exists, so that they have more choices, isn't truly railroading.

And as most of the others have said, when you're teaching new players, it's even more okay to give pointed hints; it's how they learn what their potential options are whenever they play.

Good luck,

TheNewGuy
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"But if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you"

Railroading can be good. Its required, actually, for certain types of storylines, if that's what you're after.

I have had players cry "railroad!!" because the Archmage made it so that there was only one way for them to get into his old lair.

Thats not Railroading, thats effective design.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames