Troll Lord Games

About the same time D&D was being attacked:

The Parents Music Resource Center (PMRC) was an American committee formed in 1985 by four women: Tipper Gore, wife of Senator and later Vice President Al Gore; Susan Baker, wife of Treasury Secretary James Baker; Pam Howar, wife of Washington realtor Raymond Howar; and Sally Nevius, wife of Washington City Council Chairman John Nevius.

The PMRC claimed that popular music, and especially hard rock, punk rock and heavy metal music, was partially responsible for the perceived contemporary increase in violence, rape, teenage pregnancy, and teen suicide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgKFJisc ... re=related

And the PMRC was about as successful in their campaign as the groups who wanted to get rid of D&D. Meaning not much as all. All they did was hold press conferences and yap a lot.

Much more troublesome to me, during that same time period, were the nutjobs from Tupelo, The American Family Association, formerly the National Federation for Decency. They actually came into my store and took notes of everything they considered objectionable, then by local campaigning, letter writing and phone calls, managed to get some records removed by my corporate overseers. They did the same thing to the next company I worked for as well. Once I got out of the South and started running record stores in Illinois and Wisconsin, I made it a point to not stock bands and artists the AFA specifically approved of. Plus Ted Nugent.

Why not Ted Nugget?

Harry Joy wrote:
Much more troublesome to me, during that same time period, were the nutjobs from Tupelo, The American Family Association, formerly the National Federation for Decency.

Tupelo, MS? I had no idea that's where they started from! I suppose I shouldn't be surprised... I've never actually stayed in Tupelo, but I've driven near the area quite a bit (Sieg's dad lives in north MS).
_________________
Everybody is somebody else's weirdo.

Really. I mean the only form of music/movies/etc. that ever made me want to commit murder/suicide was the time I was forced to watch "My Life as a House" to placate one of my sister-in-laws.
_________________
A Room Zoom Zoom. A Room Zoom Zoom. Gilly Gilly Gilly Gilly Ot Zat Za Come open the magic door with me, With your imagination there's so much we can see. There is a doorway that leads to a place. I'll find my way by the smile on your face.

I call those days the "second Red Scare" because everything that didn't fit in a safe box was the "Devil's Work!!!"

Ironically, now we hear countries say that old fashioned American values -- like religious freedom -- is the "Devil's Work!!"

Re: Tupelo - Which is why they were so troublesome to me. Just a day trip for them, and at the time the record store I worked at was the biggest in the Midsouth.

Re: Nugent - He stated in an interview around 1990-01 that if you bought his records and/or came to see him in concert he considered you a supporter of his political views. I figured I'd remove that wee little moral quandary for my customers.

Re: Religious freedom/devils/other countries - What the hell are you talking about and why does it matter?

Quote:
Re: Nugent - He stated in an interview around 1990-01 that if you bought his records and/or came to see him in concert he considered you a supporter of his political views. I figured I'd remove that wee little moral quandary for my customers.

Are you saying that you removed Nugent from the store - thus from customers' reach - for his views, and that was okay, but others trying to limit the music available based upon their views isn't?

I sure hope not, that sounds awfully hypocritical.

Don.
_________________
Wargames @ Nordalia.com - miniature reviews and opinion

Latest Articles: Perry 28mm ACW, Irregular Microarmor, Resina Planet Escarlata
Nordalia.com - Books and RPGs.

TheGM wrote:
Are you saying that you removed Nugent from the store - thus from customers' reach - for his views, and that was okay, but others trying to limit the music available based upon their views isn't?

I removed his records because he said that by selling his records I was implicitly supporting his world view. There are as many political, religious, and moral viewpoints in music as in anything else, and I've never pulled any other artist because I don't agree with them. Nugent, however, was special in that he said that because I stocked him, I supported him.

Did you notice a slight change in "person" there from my first post? That's because I had it both from the interview [which was in Rolling Stone I think], and second hand. An assistant of mine, who I disagreed with all over the political spectrum, was a good friend of Nugent's. Probably still is. One weekend when he was heading to Nugent's ranch, I asked him to get some sort of clarification from Ted regarding his old remarks, and that's what he came back with.

Oh, yes, these old things. If you played D&D backwards, you would summon Gene Simmons. I still have the great movie Trick or Treat which covers all kinds of neat things, and functions as a blastingly awful b-rate movie, but, with Ozzy as a reverend, its worth having.

There are plenty of nutjobs on any side of any argument. Conversely, I like Ted's political views but hate his music! That shit is awful! Al Gore has always been an opportunist and that pitiful use of government time to really stick it to Dee Snider, W.A.S.P. and Frank Zappa was ridiculous. Raise your kids to actually appreciate music and play an instrument. Once their senses are refined they will see most of that garbage for what it is. Oh and anglefish was referring to the Islamofascists who say that only a theocracy under Islam is good and all else is unholy. Kiss my crusadin' Catholic ass!

Orpheus wrote:
Al Gore has always been an opportunist and that pitiful use of government time to really stick it to Dee Snider, W.A.S.P. and Frank Zappa was ridiculous.

Al Gore had nothing to do with the PMRC. Neither did James Baker.

However, there was always opportunism on both sides in that "debate". Surely you don't think Dee Snider and W.A.S.P. were invited because of their musical talents and contributions to popular culture?

But what do I know. I'm but an innocent yet precocious nine year old boy. And I like spacemen!

Meh. There's always some gang who wants me to be part of their gang trying to claim that I'm either or too much of one thing or not enough of another.

My reply to all such is generally the same...

Pfffffttthhhhhhhhppppppppffffffffft!
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Harry Joy wrote:
Al Gore had nothing to do with the PMRC. Neither did James Baker.

However, there was always opportunism on both sides in that "debate". Surely you don't think Dee Snider and W.A.S.P. were invited because of their musical talents and contributions to popular culture?

But what do I know. I'm but an innocent yet precocious nine year old boy. And I like spacemen!

I disagree - Tipper was prominent in the PMRC, eventually becoming the mouthpiece. You don't do that while your husband (or wife) is in office without discussing it. So to claim he "had nothing to do with it" is not quite true.

And Nugent rocks. Musically and politically. I have spoken, let none disagree .

Don.
_________________
Wargames @ Nordalia.com - miniature reviews and opinion

Latest Articles: Perry 28mm ACW, Irregular Microarmor, Resina Planet Escarlata
Nordalia.com - Books and RPGs.

TheGM wrote:
And Nugent rocks. Musically and politically. I have spoken, let none disagree .

No disagreement here!
_________________
Thomas A. Tullis

Fat Dragon Games
www.fatdragongames.com

Castles & Crusades...more D&D than D&D.

Harry Joy wrote:
Al Gore had nothing to do with the PMRC. Neither did James Baker.

However, there was always opportunism on both sides in that "debate". Surely you don't think Dee Snider and W.A.S.P. were invited because of their musical talents and contributions to popular culture?

But what do I know. I'm but an innocent yet precocious nine year old boy. And I like spacemen!

Al Gore's wife had everything to do with the PMRC and he was the one leading the charge at that lovely little press conference held due to the influence of the PMRC, to which I was referring. Regardless of Dee Snider or W.A.S.P.'s musical talents or contributions to popular culture, it was stupid to waste taxpayer money holding that stupid little circus. Some of those guys were invited because those in charge thought that they could make the invitees look like bafoons. Opportunism is always going to take place in any debate. Hey, that's why it's opportunism. Of course what do I know? I'm a nine year old boy as well. I like pirates better than spacemen though.

Meow?

Harry Joy wrote:
Re: Religious freedom/devils/other countries - What the hell are you talking about and why does it matter?

Sort of a "what comes around, goes around" statement.

I grew up in the Midwest back in the '80s and I got the vibe that anytime a redneck felt something was a threat or he didn't understand it -- he'd label it Satanic to get it run out of town. Heavy Metal, DnD, Buddism, Catholics, whatever.

Now I get the same vibe when ever I see the video byte that screams about getting the "American Devil" out of the Middle East.

I happen to agree with the majority of Ted's politics. He's what I call a free-spirited conservative. He's not likely to get worried because someone said *ss on tv, or because somebody's music had dirty lyrics. He almost strikes me as part (not officially) libertarian. When I was working in radio, I must have interviewed him by phone(roughly 7 or 8 times). His music is not Beethoven, but was pretty good for rock. As for the morality groups, etc. I remember those days fondly(sort of). Other than attending a Nazarene church during the Kindergarten to elementary years(in the 70's), I largely attended Assemblies of God from middle-highschool in the 80's. *DISCLAIMER* I'm not trashing that denomination. As a matter of fact, some of the congregational members were the nicest, most trustworthy people I ever knew. That said, the Assemblies were about two or three steps down from full Pentecostal(no offense to them either). Meaning they were about as biblically-strict as the Pents, minus the long hair/bun hair/skirts only/no makeup for the ladies. During the 70's I was already a fan of Star Wars, and many of the action/adventure programs on tv, but it wasn't until 1982 or 83 that I was introduced to Dungeons and Dragons. My mother was, and still is a wonderful woman. Fairly dedicated to Christianity, as well. She didn't fully restrict cable tv, secular music, and movies for the most part. Only maybe rated R's, and select other material. Unfortunately(because of a few sermons, I suspect) I was not allowed to own D&D. I still played with friends, and was allowed to buy Star Frontiers, and other things. One of of my old churches even had those infamous Chick bible tracts, including Dark Dungeon. Not sure if my Mom even read it. She never believed I would join Satan, or commit suicide, so I'm not sure what fueled it. That said, too many well-meaning 55-80+ year old preachers would hear things from the 700 club, or Pat Pulling's Mothers Against D&D, and present it in their own sermons. They would also show videos about backward messages from rock bands like Styx and Elo. I've heard those messages and they say nothing about Satan or anything else. You'd hear about KISS' hellish makeup, or the dangers of He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, as well as the Smurfs. And, God as my witness, our preacher even spoke out about E.T., and his "healing finger, with almost Christ-like powers!" I was younger then, but I knew this line of thought wasn't quite right. In recent years, I have coined the phrase "doing the common sense math". Memories of the past, and those anti-Harry Potter attacks brought me to this. I think most of these well-meaning people were honestly naive, and worried because a very few people who MIGHT have become interested in the occult, or other things. Perhaps, because they played the games, read the books, or whatever. Research by people like Mike Stackpole has pointed out that there was much more to the suicides, etc. Getting back on track, I constantly ask people to do the "common sense math" when worrying about kids who might do these things. Even if the 20-100 people(if that many) who read Potter, played D&D, listened to the Ozzy song, etc. actually did kill others or themselves, became witches, or joined cults because of the aformentioned, I bet the number of teens who drank alcohol, did drugs, smoked cigarettes, and had pre-marital teenage sex was astronomically higher. Just do the "common sense math". The same can be said for the typically big-city, anti-gun crowd. They blame the first-person shooter games for most of the school shootings. Once again, a little common sense, non-statistical math. I don't recall how many actual school shootings have occured in the U.S. since Columbine, but I would venture to say fewer than 100. Now, how many kids played Doom, or other "shooter" games that would come along in recent years? Hundreds of thousands, or millions? Why didn't that higher number of teens also shoot up schools? Gee, Wally. I don't know. Maybe games, movies, books, and music(by and large) don't cause people to commit these horrific acts. But, as I said earlier, we seem to have a rather large number of kids who are very much into drugs, alcohol, and sex. NOt always, but that can lead to pregnancies, STD's, drunk driving deaths, and the like. But, what do I know?

When I was in High School, the student counselor caught wind that there were some students worshiping the devil.

After a thorough locker and body search, myself and several other students were relieved of their beloved D&D books. These books were promptly taken to the office where we got to watch the county juvenile officer run them through a shredder. Along with a thorough lecture from all the office staff and then being suspended for two weeks we were never compensated for our books. Those were fun times indeed.

Strange enough the creative writing class now allows and encourages the use of books like those for creative thinking projects. My how times have changed.

The devil worshiper branding did however seem to make the students part like the red sea whenever one of us would walk down the halls.

Lord Manshoon wrote:
When I was in High School, the student counselor caught wind that there were some students worshiping the devil.

After a thorough locker and body search, myself and several other students were relieved of their beloved D&D books. These books were promptly taken to the office where we got to watch the county juvenile officer run them through a shredder. Along with a thorough lecture from all the office staff and then being suspended for two weeks we were never compensated for our books. Those were fun times indeed.

Strange enough the creative writing class now allows and encourages the use of books like those for creative thinking projects. My how times have changed.

The devil worshiper branding did however seem to make the students part like the red sea whenever one of us would walk down the halls.

Wow, I was able to start a AD&D club at my high school in NJ. I still remember my friend's mom had just picked us up after a AD&D club session in the school library when the car radio said Reagan had been shot. 1981, jeesh that memory makes me feel old.

But I guess I was lucky. My parents were fine with AD&D and the school let us make an official school club solely to let us use school facilities at the end of the day to play. We even have a photo in the yearbook!

Yowsers! They shredded the books? Did you go to a religious high school. The worst that happened to us in Southeast Missouri's bootheel bible belt was that the middle school librarian(Mrs. Farrar-God love her) would occasionally get on to us for making too much noise while playing Crash on Volturnus or Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. The jr. high librarian(not for religious reasons, but most likely for preventing disruptions in a library) heard one skitter of the polyhedrons on her table, and that was it. Nothing was confiscated or preached against, at least. Think we played some in the cafeteria instead. Ah, FASA Star Trek and Doctor Who, and Victory's James Bond RPG. Perhaps, even a little Champions. hehe As Edith Bunker sang, "Those were the daaaaaaaaaaays!"

The Reagan assassination attempt. Must have been 10 at the time. *not making fun of the event* But, I knew something was up when the cartoons weren't on.

Nope the school was not religious, but the county juvenile officer had a hard one for ridding the evil from the schools. Several other schools went through the same thing.

I believe what prompted most of the issues were a few students from another state (whose elevators did not go all the way up) decided to act out their games with real equipment. That did not go so well as I think one died from that adventure.

I do remember hearing about some school officials, or others who happened to overhear game sessions which led to questions being asked. As for real equipment and somebody dying. Never heard that one. But, whoever it was must have been one polyhedron short of a full set. Don't get me wrong, there were a fair number of people in my community (back in the 80's) who bought into that crap-ola. Even some lukewarm religious folks, who typically let their kids drink and went to church on Easter and Christmas only, would question the game to a degree. That's how effective the campaign against D&D was in those days. I'm sure it was still a minority, but a lot more people than the few who took on Harry Potter a several years ago. I'm glad some of those folks have dropped off the face of the Earth, or have gone by the wayside. Most are at least in their 50's, and certainly 60's-80's by now. Harry Potter, Magic cards, and Yugio were some of the last crusades. But, there's still 5 people left in that crowd who are waiting for something. I almost miss those naysayers. Just one or two good debates with them a year would satisfy me. hehe

I left out something important from my previous, overly-long post. Number of teenagers who allegedly committed suicide, or joined cults because of D&D, or became witches after reading Harry Potter vs. the number of teenagers who are drinking, smoking, drugging it up, and having sex....you do the math! I don't even have to answer that one. Actually, I did say that earlier. I'm losing my mind. hehe Damned rpg's. I've been taken over by the forces of Satan, or something. *wink*

Here's a chilling memory for you, re: the Reagan assassination attempt. I remember our teacher telling us the President had just been shot, and we started cheering. (!) Why? Because this teacher had been filling us with the notion of what a horrible president he was, so we thought it was a good thing he had been shot....

We were 11-year olds -- what business did politics have in the damned classroom?! We should have been focusing on actual education, but this particular teacher had been pumping us full of her political views.

To her credit, she burst into tears at our reaction. In retrospect, I imagine her tears to have been an instantaneous understanding of her foolishness.

Joe Mac wrote:
Here's a chilling memory for you, re: the Reagan assassination attempt. I remember our teacher telling us the President had just been shot, and we started cheering. (!) Why? Because this teacher had been filling us with the notion of what a horrible president he was, so we thought it was a good thing he had been shot....

We were 11-year olds -- what business did politics have in the damned classroom?! We should have been focusing on actual education, but this particular teacher had been pumping us full of her political views.

To her credit, she burst into tears at our reaction. In retrospect, I imagine her tears to have been an instantaneous understanding of her foolishness.

It's funny how we're sometimes reminded how stupid and foolish some of the things we say and do are when we're confronted by a tragic event. My wife's grandfather died here at the house on the 20th of April (he was 86, served in WWII and lived a long, fruitful life; he was on his deathbed so his passing was expected) and despite his age I couldn't help but be reminded how pointless some of the crap we hold onto is. Do I really need to be having a spat with this or that person over something small and ridiculous? Is having something new and shiny so pressing? Of course, people tend to forget after a little while and go back to their old ways. I'm reminded of that Simpson's episode where Homer is inside the burning house because he skipped church: when he survives he praises God and shouts about how he'll savor every moment going forward; the next clip is him sitting on the couch eating potato chips while you can hear bowling commentators coming from the television.

My middle school library had a copy of 1e monster manual that i checked out a few times until I could buy my own. I never heard anyone say anything anti D&D here in the Orlando area.