Domesday #2 Call for Submissions

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Wed May 21, 2008 10:12 pm

Indigo Rose wrote:
I assure you it is absolutely wonderful and free of defect of any kind!
Except for that one. No, I won't tell you what page it's on.

Stop taunting us, Indigo! Moriarty and I are still waiting on our subscription issues!
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

Indigo Rose · Post by **Indigo Rose** » Thu May 22, 2008 8:37 pm

I'd be happy to mail you one of my "comp copies", Matthew, but I fear that the lower corner of the pages is torn on them. It doesn't affect readability, but it's not perfect condition.

Still, you've got a subscription, so you shouldn't have to settle for my slightly battered copies! But the offer's there if you want it. Then you can write a glowing review for the Domesday Book!
_________________
Everybody is somebody else's weirdo.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Thu May 22, 2008 9:36 pm

Indigo Rose wrote:
I'd be happy to mail you one of my "comp copies", Matthew, but I fear that the lower corner of the pages is torn on them. It doesn't affect readability, but it's not perfect condition.

Still, you've got a subscription, so you shouldn't have to settle for my slightly battered copies! But the offer's there if you want it. Then you can write a glowing review for the Domesday Book!

Thanks for the offer, Indigo. I will take a couple more runs at Stephen before I start thinking about stealing your stuff! In the meantime, maybe I will review Crusader #6 and taunt Sieg about when he thinks the Fourth Crusade took place (p. 22).
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri May 23, 2008 7:47 am

dachda wrote:
There is a rule saying submissions shouldn't mention ANY game system right?

Perhaps this is causing problems as many folk's work is game specific and re-writing to make them game neutral may be too much work.

Just a thought. It seems that many on this forum have all sorts of material that would be interesting reads, but were written for specific games.

The way I understood things the original intent of Domesday was to be kind of the fan version of the Crusader. And rules wouldn't be locked out. In fact when Fiff had things I contributed a monster and background info on it for Domesday. I don't know if he still has it or what came of it.

My problem is that there is usually some rules based item that goes with the things I've written. Be it a spell, magic item or monster. I really don't want to separate any of the work so I am at a loss as what to do.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 23, 2008 1:37 pm

Domesday is not a "fan version of Crusader." It was never supposed to be, either. The Society, and its products, are for any gamer, of any game. And that is the crux of the "no rules." If, say, you wanted to submit something but it was for Call of Cthulhu (for example), it would have to be generic as TLG, who is directly responsible and accountable for the Domesday contents, do not have permission or rights to print such things - likewise, anything specific to C&C must be approved by Steve as it is not a wholly Open game (SIEGE Engine is trademarked, for example.) So, this puts submissions in a quandary. Articles about "how to" is fine - it is only when you get into specific mentions of game mechanics that it becomes less acceptable, as you are then implying direct compatibility, which cannot, to my understanding, be done.

So, I sympathize with those trying -- I really do. But, the problem is what it always is - ensuring there are no problems.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri May 23, 2008 4:14 pm

serleran wrote:
Domesday is not a "fan version of Crusader." It was never supposed to be, either. The Society, and its products, are for any gamer, of any game. And that is the crux of the "no rules." If, say, you wanted to submit something but it was for Call of Cthulhu (for example), it would have to be generic as TLG, who is directly responsible and accountable for the Domesday contents, do not have permission or rights to print such things - likewise, anything specific to C&C must be approved by Steve as it is not a wholly Open game (SIEGE Engine is trademarked, for example.) So, this puts submissions in a quandary. Articles about "how to" is fine - it is only when you get into specific mentions of game mechanics that it becomes less acceptable, as you are then implying direct compatibility, which cannot, to my understanding, be done.

So, I sympathize with those trying -- I really do. But, the problem is what it always is - ensuring there are no problems.

One question, and one that isn't meant to stir up any debate and cause trouble:

What if a basline system similar to what the Roleaids line or the old Judge's Guild material used to use? HtK instead of HP for instance... Might instead of Strength... and that sort of vein. Would we be able to use something like this... slap on the OGL... and have it satisfy legalities? Or is this too big of a can of worms to be opening up.

If we could, we have the advantage of doing stuff relatively compatible though we couldn't use the Siege Engine.

On that note, is there a resource for what the Judge's Guild used to use when it made AD&D compatible material (or for that matter, the Role Aids line by Mayfair) online someplace? This is for personal curiousity and perhaps use.

M
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 23, 2008 4:27 pm

Quote:
What if a basline system similar to what the Roleaids line or the old Judge's Guild material used to use? HtK instead of HP for instance... Might instead of Strength... and that sort of vein. Would we be able to use something like this... slap on the OGL... and have it satisfy legalities? Or is this too big of a can of worms to be opening up.

I am no lawyer or legal expert (hence my desire to avoid any potential issue) so the following is opinion, not fact: I would think this would be pointless - terms like HP and Strength and AC are in the OGL already, so there would be no need to change them, simply to change them. Presentation can be copyrighted (called trade dress, I believe - I recall this being one reason the M&T format is different than that of d20 MMs or AD&D MMs but my memory is not always iron-fisted). I would also imagine such things are "generic" as long as no direct mentions of how they are used (ie, no save vs. breath weapon or Strength check are cited).

This would also, then, require every issue to cite what was Open Content, what was Closed Content, and so on and so forth, which I would prefer to not have to do, as, obviously, it is not within my realm of knowledge on how it works, from a publishing standpoint, so I would rather not have to.

It seems as if people want this to become a C&C-only thing... if that is the case, it becomes much easier to deal with, but each and every article would then have to be approved of, by Steve, before it can be included. And that, as you know, would require way too much time....

So, hmm... what to do, what to do.

Indigo Rose · Post by **Indigo Rose** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:05 pm

Matthew wrote:
Thanks for the offer, Indigo. I will take a couple more runs at Stephen before I start thinking about stealing your stuff! In the meantime, maybe I will review Crusader #6 and taunt Sieg about when he thinks the Fourth Crusade took place (p. 22).

Uh oh, historian throwdown! I am getting way out of the way!
_________________
Everybody is somebody else's weirdo.

Indigo Rose · Post by **Indigo Rose** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:09 pm

serleran wrote:
It seems as if people want this to become a C&C-only thing... if that is the case, it becomes much easier to deal with, but each and every article would then have to be approved of, by Steve, before it can be included. And that, as you know, would require way too much time....

Perhaps if the articles in the publication were stressed to be "non-canon" vis-a-vis the published rules, it wouldn't have to take up Steve's time for approval for every submission. Maybe?
_________________
Everybody is somebody else's weirdo.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:14 pm

Quote:
Perhaps if the articles in the publication were stressed to be "non-canon" vis-a-vis the published rules, it wouldn't have to take up Steve's time for approval for every submission. Maybe?

No. Steve makes every decision on how the SIEGE Engine is used, in every case.

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:25 pm

I wonder how other fanzines online do it? There's several that (as far as I know) don't get permission to use game mechanics. Maybe we could check there?

Matthew,

I shall meet you at dawn on the field of honor. I claim as my weapons either Hoyt & Choderow's _Europe in the Middle Ages_ (for factuality) or barring that Gibbon's _Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire_ (for weight and damage ability... 1D12 for the entire collection I think).
Choose your Second!

Mike
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:29 pm

Quote:
wonder how other fanzines online do it?

Likely because they do not have a company backing them?

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:44 pm

In that case maybe the C&CS ought to change from being "supported" by TLG to simply being "Endorsed". Otherwise the ostensible reason for the Society (a place for all gamers and all games) will be virtually impossible and the Domesday Book will be a free version of the Crusader.

Which if that's what people want then more power to them. But the reason d'etre of the C&CS should probably be changed.
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:54 pm

Aye, that is what I am trying to figure out, really. What needs changing... and how. For example, if TLG does not "support" but "endorses" then the C&CS webpage needs to be removed from the Troll domain. Likewise, content in Domesdays can be expanded (quite considerably, perhaps.)

Any suggestions as to what, and how?

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Fri May 23, 2008 10:05 pm

Hmmm. I guess one of the first questions would be; what "support" as TLG given (or plan to give) to the C&CS? Other than website and discounts?

A new website could be easily found, though finding a programmer might be harder. TLG could still offer discounts for C&CS members without risking the Society, much like giving service prsonell discounts.

Hmmm. Other ideas?
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

Buttmonkey · Post by **Buttmonkey** » Fri May 23, 2008 10:17 pm

I am kind of at a loss as to how to submit material describing an encounter or series of encounters. Am I just supposed to say in room #1 there is a group of 4 humanoid creatures that don't like adventurers, armed with blade weapons, and pretty tough to kill for novice adventurers? If I can't refer to mechanics like hit dice, armor class, weapon damage, monster names, or (in some cases) special abilities, it seems like there is not much point in trying to submit module-oriented material. If all the magazine is going to publish is setting-generic material like "how to randomly roll weather in your campaign setting", I'm probably not going to be interested in writing something up.

Please note that I am not knocking the weather article in issue #1. It was pretty impressive actually. It's just not the sort of thing I am interested in writing. I'll read some of that sort of thing, but if that is as meaty as the magazine ever gets, I probably won't read it often if ever. Reviews will always be welcome reading material, though probably not enough to get me to tune in regularly.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 23, 2008 10:17 pm

I cannot divulge everything, as of right now, but Steve and I have talked about some things, and there should be an announcement about the Society soon, and what TLG is offering. They have gone beyond what I had hoped possible in one area: they are helping me make a dream come true (something that will be of enormous value, I hope, to all who roleplay,) but until I know I can say what that is, I have to be hush-hush... but, I do not see this as being particularly damaging to what we want for Domesday (in fact, it would encourage it...)

I'm all for open discourse on the matter.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sat May 24, 2008 12:44 am

Indigo Rose wrote:
Uh oh, historian throwdown! I am getting way out of the way!

Man, I wish I had a link to the old Simon Schama versus Time Team gag.

sieg wrote:
Matthew,

I shall meet you at dawn on the field of honor. I claim as my weapons either Hoyt & Choderow's _Europe in the Middle Ages_ (for factuality) or barring that Gibbon's _Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire_ (for weight and damage ability... 1D12 for the entire collection I think).
Choose your Second!

Mike

Hmmn. I'll choose Jonathan Riley-Smith as my second.

serleran wrote:
I cannot divulge everything, as of right now, but Steve and I have talked about some things, and there should be an announcement about the Society soon, and what TLG is offering. They have gone beyond what I had hoped possible in one area: they are helping me make a dream come true (something that will be of enormous value, I hope, to all who roleplay,) but until I know I can say what that is, I have to be hush-hush... but, I do not see this as being particularly damaging to what we want for Domesday (in fact, it would encourage it...)

I'm all for open discourse on the matter.

Sounds interesting.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat May 24, 2008 1:28 am

serleran wrote:
Aye, that is what I am trying to figure out, really. What needs changing... and how. For example, if TLG does not "support" but "endorses" then the C&CS webpage needs to be removed from the Troll domain. Likewise, content in Domesdays can be expanded (quite considerably, perhaps.)

Any suggestions as to what, and how?

I don't know what to do. A spin off does sound like the best plan. As it stands I can't agree with the policy on Domesday nor support the effort with the restrictions in place. And I do remember a different take on Domesday way back when this was all being set up.

All in all I am somewhat considering reopening Raven's Keep and maybe fully ressurecting The Keeper to give what I thought Domesday was going to be.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat May 24, 2008 2:27 am

Quote:
Am I just supposed to say in room #1 there is a group of 4 humanoid creatures that don't like adventurers, armed with blade weapons, and pretty tough to kill for novice adventurers?

No, you do not have to say that. Why could you not say "there are four orcs in the room, armed with long swords?" You do not have to provide explicit numbers for HD and weapon damage - whomever reads it can use whatever substitute they want, from whatever system they way -- at least they know it is 4 orcs, and what they are armed with. This makes it usable, but also prevents it from being "game specific."

If you have ever read any of the very early Judges' Guild products, you likely have an idea of how this could work - and many of those are considered "the best non-TSR modules ever" (and some consider them to be even superior, in fact.)

But, at this point, it seems no matter what is said, or how, there is no desire for this to continue as-is. Fine, I understand that.

I will find out what can be done.

Quote:
All in all I am somewhat considering reopening Raven's Keep and maybe fully ressurecting The Keeper to give what I thought Domesday was going to be.

If you do, I wish you all the best luck in the endeavor. May you find what you are after.

Quote:
Sounds interesting.

Quite. There are hints of it scattered on various fora my name is found at... hint.

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Sat May 24, 2008 2:58 am

Matthew wrote:
Hmmn. I'll choose Jonathan Riley-Smith as my second.

As you wish....I've only read two of his works (Feudal Kingdom of Jerusalem & Knights at Crusade); but I don't think they're very large. Or do you intend to thrhow the author himself at me?

Hm. Most historians are heavy enough for STR+1d10 damage at least I believe.
Hmmm. Wonder if I could convince Steve to let me put that in the CKG. "Random Historian Encounter Table".
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Sat May 24, 2008 3:00 am

Edit:

Ok, one of those times I wrote something and got too cynical.
Anyway,

I only really want to say that Robert's intention with this new Domesday Book is just what he's said -- and what anyone thought or wanted it to be based on earlier preconceptions really isn't as important as what we make of it here and now....

So as for the idea of making it "neutral" (i.e. "fluff" oriented), hey, won't that make it a good thing to share with anybody out there? From C&Cers to LA enthusiasts to 3.xers to (gasp) 4e'ers?

Ok - that's my thought.
_________________
John "Sir Seskis" Wright

Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/

High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org

Storm Queen · Post by **Storm Queen** » Sat May 24, 2008 3:13 am

The only thing that appears to be trademarked is the SIEGE engine. I can't see why we can't stat up monsters/encounters using the OGL (or the open content parts of the C&C PHB). So that's essentially monsters, spells, classes and treasure under the OGL.

The difficult thing becomes describing ability checks in an encounter. I can't see why Steve would want to hog-tie the C&CS down in this way. Perhaps make up a kludge that uses d20 difficulty classes (a Dexterity check at DC 15?) Whatever legal paranoia is guiding TLG's decisions in this is really getting in the way of building something that was supposed to be fun for the community. Perhals Serleran can provide guidance on an acceptable kludge?
_________________
Visit the Castles & Crusades wiki!
http://castlesandcrusades.wikispaces.com/

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sat May 24, 2008 3:16 am

sieg wrote:
As you wish....I've only read two of his works (Feudal Kingdom of Jerusalem & Knights at Crusade); but I don't think they're very large. Or do you intend to thrhow the author himself at me?

Hm. Most historians are heavy enough for STR+1d10 damage at least I believe.
Hmmm. Wonder if I could convince Steve to let me put that in the CKG. "Random Historian Encounter Table".

Ehy? Maybe I have misunderstood the rules of duelling, but don't "seconds" fight for you in case you don't turn up (or are otherwise unable to fight)? Hell, if I was looking for something big to fight with, I'd just chuck my PhD thesis at you.
Still, a random Historian Encounter Table would be cool.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat May 24, 2008 3:31 am

Quote:
Perhals Serleran can provide guidance on an acceptable kludge?

Let's see...

C&C-like system in original write-up = attribute check or save

d20-like system in original write-up = appropriate skill/ability check or save

Do not have to mention how the check works, per se.

Is this truly difficult to do? I don't think so. Maybe, it is just "too generic?" I would have thought that anyone looking to use this material would have no difficulty "converting" what was listed to whatever they would use. That is the very essence of gaming -- to mold into your own.

The only really hard things to deal with are creation of new rules, but then it depends on the approach...

I don't know. Maybe Domesday should cease "production."

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sat May 24, 2008 3:39 am

I think we just need more examples of what is acceptable. Once we see how other people are approaching things, we'll have a model on which to base our own submissions.

For instance, I am thinking about writing up the short adventure decribed in my journal entry, if I were to submit that and it were to be accepted, other people could look at it and figure out how to do something similar.

I am not getting the whole C&C Fanzine aspect; we already have Crusader for 'real' C&C.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Sat May 24, 2008 3:41 am

Matthew,

Sorry, when you mentioned him as your second I assumed you'd be dueling with his works. Though I must say Gibbon's Rise & Decline is bigger than most dissertations I'd warrant.

Or is referring to a PhD "Thesis" mean it was from Europe. Darn confusing, how its one way in the states an the other in Great Britain/Europe.
Back OT, I think we probably can't speculate much on what the Domesday book is/can be until we know A) What the Society will be vis a vis TLG, B) What the Domesday's publishing parameters will be and C) What parts of C&C will be "useable" by writers in the Domesday*.

All of which probably won't have a final answer until we know what Serl & Steve are cooking up.
Mike

*= As a way around saving throws, we could just do the "Save versus Poison" or "Save vs. Death Magic"...since the PHB has a ready description of each in the attributes/saves section. Plus, makes anything there useable with OOP A/D&D as well. If people worry about Wiz-Bro, both Rob K.'s PPP and Goodman Games's "First Edition" modules have gotten away with it easily enough. But this is probably contingent on knowing A-C above too.
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Sat May 24, 2008 3:53 am

serleran wrote:
I don't know. Maybe Domesday should cease "production."

The Society and Domesday Book are really what we make of them.

Somehow we're making a mess of things.

_________________
John "Sir Seskis" Wright

Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/

High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sat May 24, 2008 3:54 am

sieg wrote:
Sorry, when you mentioned him as your second I assumed you'd be dueling with his works. Though I must say Gibbon's Rise & Decline is bigger than most dissertations I'd warrant.

Nah, I daresay he'd be duelling with his works, though. Gibbon doesn't put the fourth crusade in 1189, though, does he? I don't know about Europe in the Middle Ages, as I don't have it to hand.

sieg wrote:
Or is referring to a PhD "Thesis" mean it was from Europe. Darn confusing, how its one way in the states an the other in Great Britain/Europe.

Hmmn. Confusing. I dunno how it is across the pond, but my thesis is about 100,000 words. The format in which they get bound turns them into monstrous paper weights.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Sat May 24, 2008 4:08 am

Matthew,

In America a Master's student does a Thesis, while a PhD student does a Dissertation. So, your "Thesis" would be a Dissertation here; for a PhD. At least, that's how History PHDs are. BTW, most PHD Dissertations are around 300-400 pgs here...big but no match for the several volumes of Gibbons Opus!

For the Knights of St. Mary, the warriors who were brought to fight in the holy land at the time wer the nucleus of the order. They are considerred on the Fourth Crusade because they were gathered under the same Papal Bulls that gathered the overall Crusade. Only they went to the Holy Land, while most of the others got schnookered by the Venetians into sacking Constantinople (1204).

So, they are part of the Fourth Crusade because they were part of the overall movement. They didn't go in one big rush you know!
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot