Who wants a nuclear war?

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:07 pm

That's amazingly terrifying.

But come to think of it, it makes sense for governments to keep dishing out the holy word, in order that people are more ready to carry out their directives because they can take comfort in the knowledge that God will make everything 'not so permanent' in the end anyway.

TheNewGuy · Post by **TheNewGuy** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:36 pm

slimykuotoan wrote:
That's amazingly terrifying.

But come to think of it, it makes sense for governments to keep dishing out the holy word, in order that people are more ready to carry out their directives because they can take comfort in the knowledge that God will make everything 'not so permanent' in the end anyway.

Well, I absolutely should've made a distinction here between faith and fundamentalism.

Every religion or philosophy has its Fundamentalist adherents -- people who subvert the message to serve their own extremism and/or madness.

I absolutely do not want to derail your thread, slimy, into some endless pointless flame war on the merits or demerits of religion, religion versus faith, or any of that. It never helps anyone, and can turn friends into enemies.

But your point about the nature of governments has weight. I agree that the people in charge probably do "screen" for a particular kind of Fundamentalist mindset for the key holders. However, Fundamentalism exists independent of any given belief system (I even know some fundamentalist, evangelical atheists, who are just as annoying and disrespectful of others' rights to an opinion as they rightfully claim certain believers to be).

Politics being the beast it is, though, I don't think the dubious Christianity of these key-turners matters to the government, so much as their absolute willingness to do what is desired of them.

They could be atheists, followers of Mithraism, or whatever -- as long as they had that peculiar mindset, they'd get the gig, don't you think?

Thanks for talking, pal,

TheNewGuy
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TheNewGuy · Post by **TheNewGuy** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:52 pm

Gleemax Jr wrote:
mythbusters proved that cockroaches (at least the germanic variety) can only withstand 10k rads. there are insect species that can survive 100k rads. a human can take about 1k... so to do it right, even the cockroaches would die. a shame as i was looking forward to their leadership.

So, all we get instead, Gleemax, is Keith Richards, Emperor of Earth?
Ah well, at least the booze will be plentiful if Keith's in charge, right?

Gleemax Jr wrote:
'course the neatest thing is that something hit with radiation does not, necessarily, become radioactive.

You'll forgive me if I leave the testing of this hypothesis to you, Mr. Peter Parker!
TheNewGuy
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"But if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you"

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:53 pm

Yeah I should clarify; no slight intended against religions, etc.

I just think that it's in the best interest of those individuals in power to have people under them who think that death is temporary and who believe that there's a greater power above cleaning up all the mistakes made below.

No slight against the religious intended, these are rather musings on the mindsets of those who pull the strings...

Post by **Fiffergrund** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:19 pm

I don't know...you might be reading too much into this.

First, my dad worked on missiles during the Vietnam era and he's not fundamentalist. He's not even crazy. Just a guy doing the job he was assigned.

Second, the individuals that believed they would be hastening the Rapture aren't necessarily indicative of everyone that works on these weapons. Just as likely as the "government finds willing stooges" theory is the theory that these guys *became* fundamentalist as a way to wrap their heads around the job they are doing. I don't think a conclusion can be drawn either way.

Finally, things might have changed a bit, but I don't believe people get to select their assignments in that way. Some surely do have the opportunity, but some see it as a way to avoid a war zone, or as a way to get more pay, or any number of other factors. Some are just assigned and don't have an opinion.

Just to be clear, I didn't see any of the comments as bashing religion. I do find the implication that military folks that work on these missiles are just stooges and that the big bad government is manipulating them to be a little over the top.

Now, having said all of that, we can return to the original incendiary topic, pun intended.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:34 pm

*chuckles* "Admiral, sane people don't build weapons like this."

"Well you would think we would learn something from that?" Under Siege 2
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:44 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9jOznuG ... re=related

TheNewGuy · Post by **TheNewGuy** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:01 pm

Fiffergrund wrote:
I don't know...you might be reading too much into this.

First, my dad worked on missiles during the Vietnam era and he's not fundamentalist. He's not even crazy. Just a guy doing the job he was assigned.

I apologize sincerely if you thought that was where I was going. I assure you it wasn't.

I was only telling a specific anecdote about specific guys in a specific location who seemed to have convinced themselves they were "agents of God's judgement" in order to do their jobs.

Fiffergrund wrote:
Second, the individuals that believed they would be hastening the Rapture aren't necessarily indicative of everyone that works on these weapons.

Agreed. And in your Dad's day, nuclear missiles were still widely viewed as viable tactical weapons of war. Devastatiing ones, to be sure, but the understanding that sustained nuclear exchanges would basically destroy Earth's biosphere and end all life on Earth, that's a relatively recent understanding. One that some in high places still do not accept, in fact, despite the weight of research.

Fiffergrund wrote:
Just as likely as the "government finds willing stooges" theory is the theory that these guys *became* fundamentalist as a way to wrap their heads around the job they are doing. I don't think a conclusion can be drawn either way.

Nope I was just speculating with slimy (as with my friend, in the anecdote) about what it would require of one to arrive at a headspace where you could completely justify a world-ending job to yourself, knowing what we know now.

And for the record, I never said "willing stooges", and I never would. I've got military in my family and friends, and would never go for that simplistic label. Again not trying to offend anyone here, just speculating about how one might get to such a very specific (and unsettling) point of view, knowing what we know today.

Fiffergrund wrote:
Finally, things might have changed a bit, but I don't believe people get to select their assignments in that way. Some surely do have the opportunity, but some see it as a way to avoid a war zone, or as a way to get more pay, or any number of other factors. Some are just assigned and don't have an opinion.

I really am not allowed to elaborate on the details without potentially jeopardizing my friend's security clearances, but these guys were not run-of-the-mill "assignees", they were specifically selected and/or volunteers.

Since I won't provide further details, as above, you can certainly call BS on me, and refuse to believe me, and that's totally your right. I really was only trying to impart a chilling/humorous anecdote. I won't put my friend at risk for fleeting interweb credibility, as i'm sure you can understand. I have no credibility anyway!

Fiffergrund wrote:
Just to be clear, I didn't see any of the comments as bashing religion. I do find the implication that military folks that work on these missiles are just stooges and that the big bad government is manipulating them to be a little over the top.

Again, please, I never said stooges, nor ever meant to imply same. "Big bad government" manipulation wasn't where I was going either -- merely that governments can be pragmatic in the extreme, and if they need people for a specialized long-term posting which may prove problematic for most soldiers in the long term (knowing what we know today), it seems possible that they might seek out candidates with an appropriately "unorthodox" mindset to fill the problematic postings.

Fiffergrund wrote:
Now, having said all of that, we can return to the original incendiary topic, pun intended.

Now that (I hope) I've made it clear that I wasn't trying to insult anyone, or their fathers , I'm done, yeah.

Thanks for being so even-tempered in your response, Fiffergrund. A lesser man would've just attacked straightaway (it seems to be the internet way). I appreciate that you came at me with questions and clarifiers, rather than guns out and a-blazing.

TheNewGuy
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:38 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw-0skuQ ... re=related

Gleemax Jr · Post by **Gleemax Jr** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:41 pm

if there was a post-apocalypse game, what kind would be wanted?
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Post by **Fiffergrund** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:15 pm

No problem, TheNewGuy. I appreciate what you were saying, I just wanted to go on the record.

And, for the record, if these individuals really did select their jobs for those reasons, that truly is frightening.

As for my even-keeled response, I've mellowed. A lot! You should have seen me years ago during the Edition Wars on Dragonsfoot.
Not that your comments were attack-worthy anyway.
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:22 pm

Fiffergrund wrote:
And, for the record, if these individuals really did select their jobs for those reasons, that truly is frightening.

I suspect it's more the case that they were selected because of their views.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:23 pm

My job in the Navy (1984 to 1994) was to launch nuclear missiles we may or may not have had on board. I would do my job because they had me convinced we would only do such a launch as "retaliatory". If I was still in, with the current Commander in Chief, I don't think I would be able to do my job. You have to trust your command, I would be unable to do that now.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:29 pm

Pffft. Whatever.

-O
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:31 pm

Fiffergrund wrote:
As for my even-keeled response, I've mellowed. A lot! You should have seen me years ago during the Edition Wars on Dragonsfoot.

Old age creeping up.....
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:40 pm

[Edited for snarkyness]

My Bad.

-O
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TheNewGuy · Post by **TheNewGuy** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:58 pm

Forgot to mention that d20 Apocalypse featured a "mini-campaign setting" about so-called "Rip Van" teams that was an absolutely shameless rip-off of the Morrow Project game's central idea -- "sleeper" teams, suddenly awakened in their bunkers after an unexpected apocalyptic event derailed their planned revival.

WotC changed the core concept only slightly -- the WotC "Rip Van" teams (more like "Rip Off" teams) awoke to a world destroyed by alien conquest, not one ravaged by an apocalyptic event.

I can't help but think that WotC was merely covering its corporate ass against potential lawsuits from Timeline with such cosmetic changes.

Anyway, I still say go with The Morrow Project instead, if you're curious. Why accept a mere couple of pages of pale imitation, when the real deal's still available, complete with adventures and such?

TheNewGuy
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JRR · Post by **JRR** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:54 pm

Fat Dragon Games wrote:
You make it sound like covering one's self in mud is a bad thing.

Mud wrestling is NEVER bad. http://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/content/ ... lery.shtml
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JRR · Post by **JRR** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:05 pm

TheNewGuy wrote:
I agreed, but we quickly realized that the only people who would willingly take the job of manning the doomsday missiles would _have_ to be crazy from an ordinary perspective.

Strange world we've got here, my friends,

TheNewGuy

I think we need people crazy enough to push the button so we won't have to push the button.
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You face 99 beserkers, 99 beserkers, 99 beserkers, and 99 beserkers.

Will your stalwart band choose to Fight, Advance, or Run?

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:22 pm

Fat Dragon Games wrote:
SKS? No way, none of that commie crap here, we buy American.

I went with german.. nothing beats the H&K 91!

TheNewGuy · Post by **TheNewGuy** » Tue May 13, 2008 3:38 am

Speaking, as we were, of the apocalypse -- check out yesterday's Diesel Sweeties webcomic HERE.

I love me the DS webcomic, I do.

TheNewGuy
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"But if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you"

cinderblock · Post by **cinderblock** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:26 pm

Post-apocalyptic role-playing is prolly my favorite style of rpg. That being said a real nuclear exchange scares the hell out of me. I've played Gamma World, Aftermath, and several others (though sadly not the Morrow Project, I'll have to fix that ). But most of the player's I've had seemed to like their destruction with a bit of humour so Gamma World and Deadlands:Hell on Earth (yay!) have been the two I keep coming back to.