H1 - Keep on the Shadowfell (Our Experience)

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue May 27, 2008 4:43 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
And to touch on this a little more, I think TLG is letting a big opportunity pass them by in all this chaos. Some marketing and some evocative products to stimulate some interest could have gone a long way to garner additional interest in a game I still think is one of the best out there.

As is though, the often sluggish production schedule hurts them at times in my opinion.

Heck, I've been able to take up golf as an additional hobby with my unused RPG budget. Golf! That aint no cheap hobby either.

I have to agree with this. Though things are getting on track I thought that by now I would have been wading through the majority of the A series, wading though tons of Airdhe material and awaiting the third volume in CZ.

However the openness and honesty of Steve and the boys has kept me here and abated most frustrations I have with the schedule. In retrospect I have time to fully read something and digest it before the next release.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Tue May 27, 2008 5:32 am

I'd also jump in here to point out that our frustrations are really more born of a desire to see 2 certain long-awaited projects (CKG and CZ most specifically).

If one takes into consideration just how small a co. TLG is (isn't Steve the primary stock-boy to boot?) then just looking over the releases so far this year:

A4 Usurpers of the Fell Axe
Engineering Dungeons
Dro Mandras
Gord the Rogue New Edition

LA The Rock
Chimera's Roost

Crusader #8 out (after reorganization) and #9 out this week

Really all -- the release situation with TLG is actually pretty good - the real frustration, again is just the longstanding CKG issue and the desire, at long long last, to finally see CZ, the actual dungeons....

So add to the above the upcoming....
Upper Works release this summer

C2 Shades of Mist
Lejendary Rules for All Players new edition

and Star Siege...

all of which actually appear to be quite likely this year, and 2008 will be pretty impressive, even if the CKG (which is supplementary not core), the various LA mods by Spencer, Sieg's Armor guide, the Canting Crew revised, Lejendary Pantheons, Essential Places, the C&C Basic Set, etc. don't make it this year..... and if TLG manages to get even a few of these others in addition to the above then damn, what more can you ask..???

Sorry, guess it just irks me... TLG isn't WotC and we don't want them to be... do we? So demanding the business side provide at a level of a larger co. is a little much don't ya think?

Just my 2 cents anyway.

Edit - P.S. The truth is Steve and co. are just trying to do quite a bit more than just the few employees can chew on... I mean, 2 RPG lines + Gygaxian fantasy worlds, + a d20 line, + some games like KoEKoF - yeah, they're really just a bit overzealous with goals at times.

_________________
John "Sir Seskis" Wright

Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/

High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue May 27, 2008 5:54 am

Really the only thing I wish they would do different is have some good extras for download off the site. Maps would be nice as would be mini-adventures expansions on the Airdhe material and so on. something to keep us going til the next release.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Tue May 27, 2008 6:05 am

Perhaps it's also a bit of what we all feel who create... the Chenaults are a lot like Gary, they love and feel very proprietary over their works and worlds and don't like to let go... how hard was it for Gary to start trusting Jeffrey on the CZ material before he passed on?

Steve even talked about how hard it was to let go of Crusader and to hire and turn it over to others... imagine how he and Davis must feel about the A series?

I've certainly been pushing hard to see TLG up the ante with marketing right now because of the timing... and truth is they have a window of about a year coming here...

CZ Upper Works HAS to get finished and out... that's imperative. I'd like to see them get some promos out like Paizo.

Maybe see if there's some possible help floating around to turn over and write some things that need to get done.

_________________
John "Sir Seskis" Wright

Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/

High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:38 pm

So far, we are continuing to enjoy our little test run into 4e. However, I do have one complaint. It is not with the system, but with the module itself.

I'm not exactly a fan of some of the story elements of the module. It is nothing terrible, its just less than a stellar module in that regard and I'm having to make a few small changes here and there to have it make more sense. I would have liked to think that since this is their premiere module for the new system, they'd have given it far more "rah!" factor.

It does an admirable job in showcasing the new mechanics, and the tweaks I'm needing to make to the story of the module aren't so big as to make it suck, I just still think that as THE PREMIERE module, it should have been flawless.

Geleg · Post by **Geleg** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:36 pm

Quote:
CZ Upper Works HAS to get finished and out... that's imperative.

I agree thoroughly. I just picked up the Eastmark Folio (at the same time as 4e KotS) and was excited by the Mouths of Madness adventure ... with one major, currently fatal exception. I could/would never run it with the Fogs schtick. As a result it is mostly useless to me until the Upper Works appear.

BTW, the Folio reaffirmed my faith in C&C over 4e (I guess I'm the counter example to DD and JG and others). I had been growing interested in 4e based on some of the excitement shown by Orcus and others, but the quick start rules in KotS made it seem as if 4e would be largely focused on tactics (as someone said in one of the boards I read: "it is a role-playing game whose combats are settled by wargaming" (or something to that effect). This isn't for me, and I salute the Trolls and the late EGG for reminding me that I do prefer C&C's feel.

Geleg
_________________
The only thing you find in the middle of the road are dead animals and dumb Americans - Anton Newcombe

AGNKim · Post by **AGNKim** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:42 pm

You know this is a site for C&C, right?
_________________
kim@trolllord.com

Click here: http://tiny.cc/4rvo5

Geleg · Post by **Geleg** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:05 pm

are you talking to me, Khartsfield? Are you joking, or just being snide?
_________________
The only thing you find in the middle of the road are dead animals and dumb Americans - Anton Newcombe

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:28 pm

khartsfield wrote:
You know this is a site for C&C, right?

It is?

Yes, I'm quite aware. But in the time I've spent here we've never been averse to discussing other systems which strike our interest or raise our ire.

AGNKim · Post by **AGNKim** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 5:02 pm

Geleg wrote:
are you talking to me, Khartsfield? Are you joking, or just being snide?

No, I was not really talking to anyone, maybe DangerDwarf. I just think it's a little odd to come to a board ABOUT C&C and pimp a competitors game. I'm of no importance, I was just talking out loud. And you can just call me 'Kim'. No need to be formal.

DangerDwarf wrote:
It is?

Yes, I'm quite aware. But in the time I've spent here we've never been averse to discussing other systems which strike our interest or raise our ire.

Carry on, then.
_________________
kim@trolllord.com

Click here: http://tiny.cc/4rvo5

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 7:01 pm

Well, after reading everything on the various boards I have come to the preliminary conclusion that 4E may look very different from 3E, but I think the complexity is still there, only moved around. So I do not believe 4E is an improvement over 3E in the ways I wanted. I want simplicity. I want rules that I can contain in my head, not need books to remember them with.

4E has some good ideas which I will certainly steal, but its going to be another year or more, and not hearing of certain problems with 4E, before I am going to look at it with an eye towards running it.

In the mean time I'll stay with my C&C. I have plenty of other complex games I am interested in playing. Such as Mutants and Masterminds 2E, HARP, Shadowrun, etc...

Even though I will still take up Ravyn on his offer to try out playing 4E on line.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Geleg · Post by **Geleg** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:16 pm

okie-doke, Kim! I get it now. Sorry to seem thin-skinned.

I think Danger Dwarf has it right - this board has always seemed open to discussing whatever system .... even though we all circle back to C&C
_________________
The only thing you find in the middle of the road are dead animals and dumb Americans - Anton Newcombe

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:07 pm

Treebore wrote:
I think the complexity is still there, only moved around.

Given our limited experience thus far, I've got to say I'm thinking much the same thing. The complexity is most definitely still there. Seems a bit more "easily tracked complexity" if that makes any sense though.

Anyways, definitely wouldn't consider it "rules light".

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:36 pm

If everything goes well I'll be at a release event next weekend to check it out see what I think of it. Won't be buying though, the wife is only sending me out with enough money to buy off the used shelf.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:00 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
Won't be buying though, the wife is only sending me out with enough money to buy off the used shelf.

I feel ya JG. My wife has already informed me that my pre-order of the 4e books is my last RPG purchase for awhile. She's got some silly idea that there are things more important than games that we need to spend our money on right now.

I'm trying to sweet talk her out of a few $10 bills for the troll sale now though.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:28 am

I might get away with a few things from the TLG sale. Especially since I was informed that my shift is going to 60 hour weeks. However the Used shelf at the store had a lot of NG stuff that I have been wanting the last I was there and d20 stuff isn't moving that fast. I might get a deal on some things.

An yeah, where do wives get the idea things like bills and food come first?
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:56 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
Especially since I was informed that my shift is going to 60 hour weeks.

Oh how I wish I could get paid for my OT to be able to spring for extra stuff around here.

My normal work week, if everything goes smooth is going to be no less than 56 hours and I don't get a cent of OT. We keep getting told the legislation is going to discuss Lts. actually getting paid for the often extreme hours that we work but for the past 2 years now it has largely just been a carrot on a stick for us. They'd supposedly have to pay us 2 years back time on our OT which, a conservative estimate for me alone is over $20,000 after taxes are taken out.

But yeah, I'm spiraling waaaaaaaay off topic now.
Trying to get back on topic now...

Yeah, take a look at the demo or whatever they do for 4e. Its definitely not a game for everyone but it has some cool things too it. Even as much as my group is enjoying it, I'm not sure it will be a long term interest for me or if its just the newness of the system and my own recent shift in gaming philosophy that it making it a fun buzz around here right now.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:00 am

I basically want to see it in action. Being able to see it in action or better yet play it will help form an opinion of it. If I like it I'll look at support from WOTC and 3rd party stuff like Necro and Goodman before buying. I never early adopt anymore. Also it's a chance to network, pick up some stuff I wouldn't get otherwise and maybe show some people C&C as well.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:06 am

Oh, and one thing that I'll add. In the last session the group managed to free their mentor from the cultists. He;s going to hang around in Winterhaven for a bit recuperating and work with the local sage on providing history and clues for the party as to what is going on. When they get done they'll help him get back to his wife in his hometown of....

Yggsburgh.
Yeah, on a whim when we stated this I had Winterhaven located along the Dunfalcon Pike.

I'm pretty sure I committed a few sins somewhere along the way in all of this.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:16 am

Wait until you see what I did/am doing to GH for my d20 redive.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:23 am

Looking forward to it.
recently I've gotten too much enjoyment out of taking established campaign settings and having my way with them. Over the past year I have had one shots and mini-campaigns which have included:

An alien invasion of Krynn.

A Warhammer 40K / Greyhawk /Blackmoor jaunt.

A Pathfinder / Rifts compilation

And before those I did a Shadowrun / Inuyasha mix.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:32 am

I'll give the nutshell version: The pantheon has been removed and replaced with the Tenoric out of the Yggsburgh Folio. This Pantheon also forms a tightly knit church. If you have played FFXII you'll know how I am approaching this. Yggsburgh is part of the setting. The GH wars happened but stalemated and there was never a pact signed. The wars were kicked off partially by Rary and robilar betraying the Co8 in service of the Horned Society. Iuz was possibly there but has disappeared or was an imposter.

That's the short version. I'll reveal more as the campaign gets underway.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

JRR · Post by **JRR** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:23 am

serleran wrote:
There really are only three general responses --

1) Awesome! This game does everything I always wanted! I'll play this every chance I get!

2) Stupid! This game has nothing I need! I would not play this if I was paid.

You got it right in only two guesses!
_________________
You face 99 beserkers, 99 beserkers, 99 beserkers, and 99 beserkers.

Will your stalwart band choose to Fight, Advance, or Run?

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:34 am

And here we go...It's like I never left DF.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:12 am

Just got H1, so I will be able to tell you guys something more as soon as I manage to run a game (possibly this we).

I also gave a thorough look at the books, which my FLGS already has in store and is selling (I guess after the Amazon error many stores do not want to waste time).

Well, the books are very well organised. The graphic layout is quite good, the text is easily readable, although the images are not excessively to my liking. It is not manga-like as Paizo's Pathfinder, nor as Dungeon-Punk as 3.x, but still, I find it rather uninspiring (art being what it is, this is purely a matter of taste).

Some things I noticed:

1) The race entries are well done, now races can grow in power in parallel with classes by mean of racial feats. This is quite an improvement over 3.x, where racial benefits after a while got quite stale since everyone could acquire their powers.

2) No more feat chains. Enough said!

3) Skills have been streamlined. Now there are only 15 or so skills, much less detailed than 3.x. No more skill points, you choose a number of skills at character creation, and you are considered trained. To train in other skills, you spend a feat.

4) Magic items are in the PHB!!!!?!?!? WTF? Not that there are many, since the most wondrous ones are in the DMG, still...

5) The DMG seems as uninspiring as the 3.x version was. With the exception of the chapter on customising monsters and creating NPCs, nothing exceptional.

Important point: NPCs are treated differently than PCs! In fact, they are monsters! No more 20th level commoners or 10th level expert butlers with 70hps.

6) The MM is very nice. Some (nearly)inexplicable holes (no metallic Dragons), but overall the monster writeups are quite easy to read and use. No digging around feats, skills etc. as in 3.x. They are as plug-n-play as the critters in C&C's M&T.

Also about Dragons: only four age categories: Yound, Adult, Elder and Ancient. Each Dragon entry occupies roughly less than a 1/4 of page, all stats included. Not bad considering their 3.x counterparts.

Ok, that's all for now.

Overall, I am quite impressed. After watching the game actually run, I can certainly say I will give the game a try.

Cheers,

Antonio

Montague · Post by **Montague** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:11 pm

I was one of the biggest naysayers of the game up until a few days ago.

I got a look at the books (they are up on torrent sites) and after sifting through it I still think the designers went overboard in trying to cater to the WoW crowd. However, I then have to remind myself that I played WoW for 3 1/2 years.
After some consideration the wife and I have decided to pick up the books this Friday. We're hearing good things about it and I'm not above saying I was wrong if the reward is a fun game system. We'll see in the coming weeks.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:39 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
2) No more feat chains. Enough said!

3) Skills have been streamlined. Now there are only 15 or so skills, much less detailed than 3.x. No more skill points, you choose a number of skills at character creation, and you are considered trained.

... NPCs are treated differently than PCs! In fact, they are monsters! No more 20th level commoners or 10th level expert butlers with 70hps.

Can't argue with these design philosophies! These changes are things I did to create my C&C versions. To train in additional skills I am still ahead of the curve. I have them... train/learn. Imagine that.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

mordrene · Post by **mordrene** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:41 pm

OK, people who have played or read 4e, i have some questions. How long does a single encounter take? The thing that I hate about 3e is in a 4 hour session you have about enough time for maybe 2 encounters. Does 4e speed this up. Or, as I suspect, does it bog ot down even morethat 3e?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:48 pm

mordrene wrote:
OK, people who have played or read 4e, i have some questions. How long does a single encounter take? The thing that I hate about 3e is in a 4 hour session you have about enough time for maybe 2 encounters. Does 4e speed this up. Or, as I suspect, does it bog ot down even morethat 3e?

I very strongly suspect it will be very similar to 3E. Relatively quick at low levels and slows down as levels increase. So we'll have to wait for games to get higher in levels to really find out.

I have read post saying roughly 30 to 90 minutes per combat in the Shadowfell module. This is for 1st to 3rd level characters, so it certainly does not bode well for the higher levels.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

mordrene · Post by **mordrene** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:57 pm

Right now I am running a 3e group through the expidition to castle greyhalk and it is taking forever. with the new character powers I dont see how 4e will be an improvement. all the while i keep adding, " you know, cnc would take this long."