H1 - Keep on the Shadowfell (Our Experience)

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:58 pm

We *might* be playing another session later this evening. If so, I'll time one of the combats and see how long it takes.

I didn't pay too much attention to it in our past sessions, I just know it didn't seem overly long. I'll get an exact amount today if we play.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:03 pm

mordrene wrote:
... all the while i keep adding, " you know, cnc would take this long."

Would NOT take this long.
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:10 pm

K- I've looked at it in detail.

The game does assume the use of a battle grid, which dominates all combat actions.

Triggered actions, action actions, feats, manouvers, 3 types of instant magical actions per class, dragon born, tieflings, etc.

It's basically WoW in rpg form, makes heavy use of miniature combat, and is manga-like in style and flavour.

This is the same complicated nightmare I left.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:15 pm

slimykuotoan wrote:
This is the same complicated nightmare I left.

Yeah, that is how I think it is shaping up too. Like 3E, I think its a good RPG, but also like 3E, I don't think its a game I would enjoy DMing for very long.
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:17 pm

mordrene wrote:
OK, people who have played or read 4e, i have some questions. How long does a single encounter take? The thing that I hate about 3e is in a 4 hour session you have about enough time for maybe 2 encounters. Does 4e speed this up. Or, as I suspect, does it bog ot down even morethat 3e?

I have not played yet, but the guys playing at the FLGS ended a combat in a few minutes. They were not even using the battlemats, and it seemed to flow quite well.

I have just read the Quickstart rules from the H1 module, it does not seem too much of a burden. For example, AoO are only activated when one moves away from an attacker, or attacks with a ranged weapon or area attack (I suppose this includes spells). I do not know if the "full" rules will be different, but this does not seem too far away from what I have been doing with C&C.

Anyways, I should be able to test the module this week end. If I should not like it, I can always cancel the Amazon order

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:53 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
I have not played yet, but the guys playing at the FLGS ended a combat in a few minutes. They were not even using the battlemats, and it seemed to flow quite well.

That sounds about right. I know the kobold ambush didn't take us hardly any time at all. Seemed no different time-wise for a similar combat in AD&D.

The burial site combat took a little longer but that had some extra stuff going on in our session. But even then it in no way took an extended amount of time.

Neither of those combats were ran with a battlemat and went 100% fine without it. So the game in no way, shape or form requires one to play, and play enjoyably.

It seems easily adjustable enough to run as "tactically" as one desires.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:07 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
Neither of those combats were ran with a battlemat and went 100% fine without it. So the game in no way, shape or form requires one to play, and play enjoyably.

It seems easily adjustable enough to run as "tactically" as one desires.

Just finished reading the module, it seems quite fun to run.

I agree, no one of the encounters seems to require a map to be run. The rules are a bit "dry", i.e. they spell things with extreme conciseness, but after one or two reads, they make sense. Also the Conditions are easy to remember, and they are far less "encumbering" than they were in 3.x.

I guess the heavy saver here is the fact that AoO are not as pervasive as before, and can be easily adjudicated even without a map.

I like that Kobolds have the Shifty ability, which allows them to escape from a fight without incurring AoO. Also the Mob tactics is quite fun. I expect to see the terrified face of a player when his PC is ambushed from all sides by Kobolds!

mordrene · Post by **mordrene** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:33 pm

Treebore wrote:
Would NOT take this long.

sorry i cant tpye

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:46 pm

I have to admit i like how saves work in 4th ed

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:53 pm

concobar wrote:
I have to admit i like how saves work in 4th ed

That was one of the areas I was fairly leary. The idea seemed to different to me. In play, it seems to work just as well as anything else, it still seems a little out of place to me in D&D.

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:02 pm

I agree 100% that it feels odd. However I like that the effects of area effect spells can be determined with on d20 roll. fireball roll d20 and compare to applicable save (ref or fort) if you rolled higher target takes full damage. if you rolled less target takes half damage. Seems like this would speed things up.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:53 pm

I have been "familiarized" with that type of save with Mutants and Masterminds and True 20. I am not clear on if they are exactly the same, but they are done close.
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adaen · Post by **adaen** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:18 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
When it comes to the issue, I am in favor of having mechanics for social aspects only when the players cannot cover this aspect by themselves (perhaps with the exception of morale). One should have mechanics to do things that as a player one cannot do, which is mostly the handling of physical world. Although, one could argue that penalising a player for not being able of being "Diplomatic", might be a bit harsh and not fun.

I whole-heartedly agree with this....esp. the last sentence.

~AoB
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adaen · Post by **adaen** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:09 pm

I've been in the "not gonna do it camp" and now, like before, I'm eyeing a new edition with some interest. I currently play D&D 3.25 and GM mostly my own homebrew/hacked systems....

~AoB
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:53 pm

adaen wrote:
I've been in the "not gonna do it camp" and now, like before, I'm eyeing a new edition with some interest. I currently play D&D 3.25 and GM mostly my own homebrew/hacked systems....

~AoB

What is D&D 3.25? 3.0 with some additions?

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:41 pm

It is a term used by players who didn't fully adopt the 3.5 changes. They would pick what they wanted and add it to 3e. Say adding a couple classes that were changed or the reorganized spell list.
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adaen · Post by **adaen** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:24 pm

Yep, D&D 3.0 with some additions for 3.5. Since some of the changes to spells for 3.5 drastically altered durations and the strategy for using spells (i.e., when you cast them) we opted to not adopt most of the changes. However, we do add in the odd Feat/PrC/Spell/Critter/etc. from 3.5
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:27 pm

I'm gonna perform a whirlwind attack, grant an action point to a companion 10 squares away from me, and since I'm a Warlord, I take my 'Tough as Nails' action and do a healing surge on myself.

PHB: "When a combat encounter starts, its time to turn your

attention to the battle grid. The combat rules assume

that you use D&D Dungeon Tiles, a poster map, a gridded

white board, or an erasable, gridded mat to show the area

where a battle takes place. The rules also assume that you

use D&D Miniatures to represent the adventurers and the

enemies they face."

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:32 pm

And yet it is still possible to run without a battlemap. Hmmmmm. I must be playing wrong.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:35 pm

Well, whether or not people can play 4E like it's not 4E, I honestly have a headache just thinking about the awful Player vers. GM world of WOTC.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:40 pm

Its honestlynot that bad (the battlegrid wording,etc) slimy. You ever play Savage Worlds? It has the same presumptions in its wording, abilities, spell ranges, etc and I've never used a grid for that game either.

I do admit, that when I first started SW, it irritated the hell outta me though.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:46 pm

I'll admit that I'm approaching this from the land of: "I can't DM 3.5 ever again!"

So my negativity is gonna come out and slant my perspective.

But honestly, the flavour for me just doesn't seem 'fantasy', it's more video gaming in tone or something.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:52 pm

I think a lot of my non-irritation at 4e is the fact that I don't view 3e as D&D either so I'm not looking this so much as a raping of D&D as I am viewing it as d20 2nd Edition.

I freely admit that I first began touting 4e as a way to irritate "3e grognards" who spent years smack talking AD&D and games like C&C and our refusal to "move on" or "keep up with the times".

Somewhere along the way though some of the 4e stuff stuck with me.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:39 am

mordrene wrote:
OK, people who have played or read 4e, i have some questions. How long does a single encounter take?

I almost forgot about this. I did time the two of the encounters we had from our last session. Here they are and here's our time:
Encounter #1

1 Kobold Skirmisher

10 Kobold Minions

1 Kobold Dragonshield

1 Kobold Slinger

This encounter WAS played with a battlemat and took 20 minutes. I didn't have an issue with the time it took to run this encounter. We had a good time through it.

Encounter #2

3 Kobold Skirmishers

10 Kobold Minions

2 Kobold Dragonshields

1 Kobold Wyrmpriest

Irontooth (Lvl 3 Elite Goblin Brute)

This encounter also used a battlemat and took 50 minutes to complete. Looking at the time, I'm kinda grumbling about it. My players had no problem with it though because it was a high action, high tension fight. It was an extremely tough encounter that came in two waves. By the time the battle was done, the wizard was dead, the cleric had 1hp left and the tiefling had 2hps left. All of their nifty abilities had been taxed to the max.

The time sucked on the 2nd one but I don't think anyone but me noticed. They were too busy breathing a sigh of relief when the dust settled.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:32 am

slimykuotoan wrote:
I'm gonna perform a whirlwind attack, grant an action point to a companion 10 squares away from me, and since I'm a Warlord, I take my 'Tough as Nails' action and do a healing surge on myself.

PHB: "When a combat encounter starts, its time to turn your

attention to the battle grid. The combat rules assume

that you use D&D Dungeon Tiles, a poster map, a gridded

white board, or an erasable, gridded mat to show the area

where a battle takes place. The rules also assume that you

use D&D Miniatures to represent the adventurers and the

enemies they face."

Another section of the PHB in the combat chapter says that maps are not required, but they help visualisation. More or less, as has always been since the times of OD&D. If there is something that irks me, it is the language they use to describe things, even when not directly related to combat. Sort of like the usage of inches in 1e.I suppose one gets used to it after a while. In the end, what you get out of the game depends on you.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:53 am

S'funny how quick people forget D&D came from wargames which used such things and the connection was even still there in 1e.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:10 am

Don't worry Julian, Slimy and I are very aware of D&D's roots.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:29 am

As am I. Though I wonder at how much of the roots WOTC was concerned with. On one hand they are upholding a tradition of sorts with the battlemats and mini-rules on the other they seem to be more interested in cross merchandising. I guess this one is in the eye of the beholder.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:20 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
As am I. Though I wonder at how much of the roots WOTC was concerned with. On one hand they are upholding a tradition of sorts with the battlemats and mini-rules on the other they seem to be more interested in cross merchandising. I guess this one is in the eye of the beholder.

WOTC seems to me to be very "corporate". So I am pretty sure that the "suits" want the wargamer angle in the game to help push the sales of the minis line.

Plus 3E did make me learn to appreciate the importance of "precision" in certain instances, so it isn't like I hate the use of mini's, I am just not a war gamer. The closest I get to war gaming is Playing Civilization, Axis and Allies, and the like.

Even though Mechwarrior got me very close into playing that kind of "war gaming", until I figured out how much all the mini's would cost.
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:05 am

Besides, many new games use battlemats and minis and "squares" as units for movement. For example, Savage Worlds, and WHFRP2e and Dark Heresy. Yet, no one seems to complain about these.