Troll Lord Games

I must say I've spent the first, oh, 28 years of my gaming career without any knowledge of -- or interest in -- what brand of dice I own and use. I've got hundreds of 'em, accumulated over the years, but just never paid much attention to where they came from.

The posts here, in praise of Gamescience, made me look more closely at my dice, in comparison with brand pics on the internet. I realized that many of mine came from a couple of 'pounds o' dice' from Chessex, and that I had several Chessex poly sets, but only a few old Gamescience dice -- so I just ordered some sets of the latter.

I like the sharp edges. I like that they don't roll for half a minute before making a decision. But what the hell is up with the giant warts -- where the plastic enters the mold, I suppose -- on some of the faces? I had to take a nail file to many of them. The ones that didn't need a file had ugly, almost cratered spots where the wart would be.

I want to like these dice, but I'm disappointed with the finish quality. On the flipside, I'm very happy with the finish and consistency of my Chessex dice, but wish they were a bit less rounded.

Thoughts?

Another thing that bothered me: some of the Gamescience D6s had opposite sides adding up to 7 -- as tradition and superstition tell me they should -- while others did not. The ones that didn't went into the big baggie of dead, unhappy, unused dice.

I am almost exclusively Chessex myself.
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You must have gotten Gamescience rejects.

Eh, whatever looks cool to me. I like both for various reasons. Gamescience dice usually fill my classic style gaming events, while Chessex are for more modern games. It all just depends.

-O
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serleran wrote:
You must have gotten Gamescience rejects.

I don't think so. I bought them from here:
http://www.g2ch.com/

Not a condemnation of this company, mind you, just wondering if Gamescience quality has slipped.

No, I have always seen these problems with game science dice. Except at GenCon in 06. None of the dice in the bins had any defects.

MAkes me wonder if they use mail order as a way to get rid of the defects.

Chessex hasn't been perfect either, but I would say out of my 200 game science dice I have about 25 with defects. Out of my 400 Chessex dice I have about 15 defects.
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Treebore wrote:
No, I have always seen these problems with game science dice. Except at GenCon in 06. None of the dice in the bins had any defects.

MAkes me wonder if they use mail order as a way to get rid of the defects.

Chessex hasn't been perfect either, but I would say out of my 200 game science dice I have about 25 with defects. Out of my 400 Chessex dice I have about 15 defects.

Interesting, thanks.

Hi Guys,

Noticed your post on Gamescience dice and thought I would chime in as both one of the owners of G2 and as a gamer. Hope no one minds this.

I agree completely with Joe. I recall a time when Gamescience dice were cut more precisely. I have old ones from my original Twilight 2000 game, from 2300 AD, and a few others that I bought over the years and these are beautifully cut on the edges, nice and crisp. Something about the way the dice are cut from the mold these days has changed. The original Gamescience dice I have are cut perfectly, no bump at all where the mold sprue was cut. I can see where the sprue was cut, but it is nice and flat. On my newer sets I have taken a file to some of the sprue spots to make them flat because as Joe described they definitely are visible and annoying. On the cratered spots I do not honestly know what to do about those either. I still love Gamescience which is why we have continued to carry them, but on eBay and on our website I tried to make it clear that the unpolished dice are just not made to look good. They still live up to Lou's promise, but the appearance could use some work.

Serleran and Treebore I wish they were rejects or defects because I could get nice crisp ones as replacements (no hostility intended here - just responding). I just went to Origins and I did not see a thing different at Lou's booth. It just seems like the quality has slipped in my opinion. I mean, do not get me wrong, I still love Gamescience like I said above, but truth is truth and there is no way I can say these are as good as the older offerings.

So I guess where I stand is that these are still the best dice you can own for fair rolls (my opinion to be fair), but they are also the least pleasing to look at. I personally use a little bit of everything when gaming, Koplow, Chessex, and Gamescience. Depends on my current need which I grab.

As for Chessex my understanding is that they have a license to produce copies of Lou's stuff, but they use a slightly different process. They may be a good middle ground between regular polished dice and unpolished dice.

Again, my apologies if I offended anyone by replying here. Just thought since we were mentioned I would say something. Thank you by the way Joe for being clear on the idea that Gamescience and G2 are two different entities. I do appreciate that very much.

Hey Steve,

Thanks for posting here. Wow, you sure do make it clear on your web site -- if I'd bothered to read any descriptions before speedily adding stuff to my shopping cart!

Hope you don't mind me posting the link I missed, in which you say 'Please Read This Before Ordering Gamescience Dice':
http://www.g2ch.com/agd.htm

Sums it up nicely, and you can't get more straightforward than that...
Your web site is crack for the dice addict; I'll be placing another order soon.

As long as I'm learning more than I ever knew about the dice business...how do Koplow and Chessex compare, precision-wise? They seem very similar in appearance, and I probably have some Koplow in my collection which I've misidentified as Chessex.

Thanks!

Joe

That is very cool of you Steve. I appreciate straight up honesty, too little of that these days. I like the dice too, just the "failure" rate was so high I have been primarily Chessex ever since. Even though I did not know that Chessex made their own versions of game science.

I have your site now bookmarked for future dice needs.
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Joe Mac wrote:
I want to like these dice, but I'm disappointed with the finish quality. On the flipside, I'm very happy with the finish and consistency of my Chessex dice, but wish they were a bit less rounded.

Thoughts?

Lou rejects substandard dice, out-of-hand, however the Gamescience dice with burrs have still made their way into the marketplace, nonetheless.

The newest sets of GS dice I picked up at Origins this year, were crisp, and sharp-edged with no signs of burrs or defects of any kind.

I also did pick up Chessex dice, Crystal Blue six-siders, and a cup o' dice which yielded just about twenty dice of every kind, except Twelve-Siders which I ended up with four of. All the Chessex dice were good quality and inked, however I did get a few in the batch that were obviously made when they changed color with the die-casting machines, as they are two-colored or swirly colored dice.

I prefer the GS dice, except when using the d6's, I actually like the rounded edges on the Chessex dice which makes them spin a bit more when they are thrown adding a bit to the suspense of the outcome.

Thanks Joe. Not a problem at all with posting the link. Took me a while to find it but I have an information sheet that Lou sent us back when we started carrying Gamescience dice.

The chart here is condensed from Lous promo sheet:

Manufacturer / least variation / greatest variation

TSR Official Gems .044 / .050

TSR D&D Basic Dice .034 / .055

Koplow .008 / .025

Armory Razor Edge .003 / .018

Bonus Pack, Nice Dice, Gemstones, Tube Dice, Western Bonus, Etc .009 / .032

Gamescience .002 / .006

As you can see Chessex is not listed anywhere on here. So I cannot really say a lot about them with 100% accuracy. I can however piece together some things I have heard and talked with people about. I suspect Chessex falls in to the Nice Dice section mostly. If anyone knows different correct me, but the majority of Chessex dice (maybe all) are manufactured in China (and the basic tube nice dice are Chinese in origin). Interestingly enough, at this point I believe this is true for Koplow as well (they even use the phrase The Nice Dice Company now). In fact, Koplow and Chessex even sell some of the same exact sets under slightly different names (check out Koplows elemental line and compare it to Chessexs speckled line Chessex was the first to carry these, but Koplow either buys from the same source or has rights to carry them as well). Koplow used to import part of their selection of dice from Germany which gives them that little bit of bonus on those sets in the chart above. But at this point I cannot truly say which if any come from Germany. In short, I suspect Chessex and Koplow are about similar on that chart above at this point. Thats why in my page on Gamescience dice I mention that Koplow runs between .008 and .032 I know there are plenty of Nice Dice in there at this point and the .032 greatest variation seems like the more fair number for Koplow now (admitted this is untested opinion).

Of course I read over this and I think to myself, wow do I sound incredibly obsessive about dice precision. Not really though. This is just something I know a bit about and it is interesting on some level to me. Other than that, I play games. I am not really going to end up a corpse if my dice are slightly off in precision and they give me a 1 when I needed anything but a 1. Overall, my policy is stick to the big manufacturers, Koplow, Chessex, Gamescience, and Crystal Caste. As long as you do this youll be fine for good quality dice. I happen to know that Koplow takes their dice production dead on serious as I have asked them about defects before and they always contact me back with a nice detailed email telling me what they have done to improve things and keep quality up. Crystal Caste has clearly shown the same concern for quality when I have spoken with them. I suspect Chessex would be no different and has the same concern.

What you want to avoid is deals that seem too good to be true from no name dice companies. One dirty little secret someone internal to one of the above companies shared with me about the good old pound o dice is that these are typically factory seconds and rejects not good enough to be placed in tubes. Ive never been able to verify the truth of that statement, but this person is someone I trust well and this is why I avoid the pound bags of dice like the plague (and we do not carry them). There is one positive thing he did mention about the pound bags though. They are also the place where manufacturers get rid of test ideas so sometimes you can get some unique dice, colors that were not made or patterns that were made but slightly different.

Crack for the dice addict. Now that would be a fun slogan. I am sure many would not appreciate the humor though! We actually are working on our first Crystal Caste postings now and we should have Chessex sometime soon as well. Maybe limit your visits to the site to once a month to avoid temptation?

Treebore, thanks for the comments! Appreciate it very much.

DragonDaddy, you just gave me some hope that maybe Lou has done something about this! When I stopped by and seen him at Origins this year he had nothing but the same style I am used to seeing (rough marks), but that was on the last day just before close so maybe he was down to older stuff. We buy all of our sets direct from Lou, so I hope our next order we place will be the Gamescience dice I remember!

I have bought 2 "pound o dice" bags over the years. They may well be rejects, but the problems they have are all "bubbling". Other than bubbles they look just like the ones in the tubes. Plus there are not bubbles in all of them, far from it. Other than that the only other "reject" criteria I could see were badly painted numbers. Nothing bad in my opinion, but I don't test my dice for true randomness.
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Treebore, youre the guy with actual experience on this one and from what it sounds like, the pound dice bags are not as bad as I was made to believe. Then again, I guess that supports my overall idea. If a bubble alone or badly painted numbers are enough to get a dice condemned to the pound bag then these are pretty good companies that care about the perception of their products. I may have to give in and buy one of these pound bags someday myself just to see what I think in person. After all, a GM can always use more dice! Sounds like a good excuse to me anyway.

I was happy enough I bought the second well after I bought the first. So if you need that many I recommend it. Just be prepared for a lot of d20's, few d12', and mostly d 6's.
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Heh, my Holmes Box dice are still fresh. The d4 is SHARP. We used them on a cloth dinning room table BITD.

{I noticed Deogulf's Holmes dice recently and was wowed at how they were worn. But I was impressed because I knew that's what happens after so many years!!! ]

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I've bought at least one of the Chessex 'pounds o' dice' over the years, maybe two. As Treebore said, I haven't been able to detect any physical anomalies with their shapes -- most are simply butt ugly. A lot of hideous, garish colors and lousy paint jobs on the numbers. Some are totally indistinguishable from those sold in proper sets, making me wonder why they're rejects -- no one is actually taking a micrometer to these things before letting them out the door, are they?!

Steve, on the Chessex web page they do now describe them as factory seconds:
http://www.chessex.com/Dice/poundofdice.htm

If they'd described as seconds when I bought them on e-bay (not directly from Chessex; I don't remember the dealer), I probably wouldn't have -- because I am a bit anal, and it makes me wonder what's wrong with 'em! (Other than being in silly colors that probably wouldn't sell...which might be all it is, in many cases.)

Also, your comments about Chessex and Koplow possibly coming from the same source explains something I noticed when scrutinizing my dice: some of the styles of numbers on dice from my pound of Chessex look identical to numbers on Koplow dice, but different than most of the other Chessex... Hmmm.......

Rhuvein wrote:
Heh, my Holmes Box dice are still fresh. The d4 is SHARP. We used them on a cloth dinning room table BITD.

{I noticed Deogulf's Holmes dice recently and was wowed at how they were worn. But I was impressed because I knew that's what happens after so many years!!! ]

Are the old TSR dice the ones referred to as 'low impact'? My earliest dice (likely from my Holmes set) were so soft, my D20 was worn almost spherical by 1982 or so!

Very cool of Chessex to just openly say that on the site now. They would be the first to say that publicly I think. I don't know how they designate dice as seconds - definitely no micrometers I am fairly sure. I really will have to try to get a bag for myself eventually and see what I get.

Thanks for letting me join the conversation all. We have orders piling up that will need to ship tomorrow so for now I have to bow out, but it has been fun to "talk" with fellow gamers.

I may end up back here when I get a chance. Another game is the last thing I need, but I kind of developed an interest in Castles & Crusades while I was looking around the boards. Now to sell the idea to my game group...

Following up on this former discussion for anyone who might be interested or who may stumble on this in the future. Gamestation recorded Lou speaking about his dice (and others) at Gen Con this year. Check out the videos on YouTube:

Part 1

Title: Game Science Part 1 of 2

/watch?v=bR2fxoNHIuU

Part 2

Title: Game Science Part 2 of 2

/watch?v=PxmkWrDbn34

Sorry, I would have posted the links but the board stopped me since I have not posted here all that much. Just start out with YouTube's base URL and then add the above / to see these (or go there and search for the title). If someone sees this who can post links, please post the links so people can get to these easier.

Turns out I now have 5 post. Heh!

Game Science Part 1 of 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR2fxoNHIuU

Game Science Part 2 of 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxmkWrDbn34

Damn it... now I want some Game Science dice (again)! I only have a couple of sets... and I think I'm missing a die from each one.

M
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The only defect I have noticed with the dice is bubbling. As far as I can tell they still roll randomly.

BTW, I do not consider bad painting a defect, but it is a "defect" in production terms, so would be considered rejects. So as far as I can tell the bad paint is far and away the reason most of the dice were rejected. The bubbling was pretty uncommon, maybe 1 in 15?
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Man, Lou was always a fascinating guy to talk to. He will be missed on the convention circuit. There's always room for my Gamescience dice!

-O
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I would just like to point out that when it comes to disciplining players, nothing beats a rubberband and few Gamescience d8's. Some of my guys come to game night bearing scars from the previous game.
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Castles & Crusades...more D&D than D&D.

Those videos were rad!

Sign me up!
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Steve @ g2ch wrote:
Turns out I now have 5 post. Heh!

Game Science Part 1 of 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR2fxoNHIuU

Game Science Part 2 of 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxmkWrDbn34

That's what I call a dice bitch slap to Chessex and others.

Thanks for posting the video links- very informative.

Dranoel wrote:
That's what I call a dice bitch slap to Chessex and others.

Thanks for posting the video links- very informative.

Yes, thanks Steve -- interesting stuff from Lou!

Unfortunately, though, it's only an attempted bitch slap; the Chessex D20s next to me on the desk pass Lou's tests more readily than the Gamescience D20s.....
Edit: To be more specific, the Gamescience translucent D20s seem crisper and more uniform than the opaque ones; the latter have a very subtle rounding on many (but not all) of the flats, causing them to wobble slightly when 'at rest'. These are all recently purchased sets, by the way.

I like the Gamescience dice. I like the way they stop rolling more quickly, when space is at a premium on a crowded game table. But as for their allegedly superior precision -- for recent production, at least -- I'm not buying it...

q workshop can't be beat for cool dice.

Crystal Caste is a close second.
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