Troll Lord Games

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:57 pm**

Please don't flog me too hard if this has been asked/discussed before.

As I pass the time waiting patiently for Gods & Demons to be released (and pass the time at work, bored out of my mind), the topic of demons and devils and their use in a campaign has wandered across my mind. Which edition's fiends would be most appropriate?

At first I was thinking that I would probably use the 1st Edition ones, as those seem to go with C&C, flavor-wise. But then I started thinking; do I want the demons and devils more powerful than their 1e counterparts? As the 3.x ones are considerably more powerful than the 1e/2e ones (IMHO), would I want them to be a thorough challenge for my PCs?

One thing's for sure, no tanar'ri and baatzeu for me! I guess in the end I would probably use the 1e ones as they seem to be more appropriate, power-wise, to C&C. If I wanted some over-the-top fiendish denizens, I'd most likely go with 3.x

EDIT: Feel free to share any comments.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:56 pm**

The only pause that I'd give on using the 3e demons is that it seems that the power levels would be completely out of balance -- throw a 3e Pit Fiend or balorat an experienced party of C&C characters, and it's a fair chance of ending up a TPK. This is because, as D&D 3e is geared towards powerlevelling and AD&D1e or C&C aren't, the monsters in my estimation in 3e became sharply more powerful as the challenge ratings climbed to challenge a player in a game where name level wasn't 11th level but close to 20th.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:20 pm**

I think the 1E infernals are closer to C&C than the 3X version (in power).

I wouldn't increase the 1E infernals much...as their magic resistance is a good compensator in a lot of situations. Not to mention Gating; which can be REAL trouble depending on who you're fighting.
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Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:29 pm**

I use my own.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:03 pm**

Lord Dynel wrote:
Please don't flog me too hard if this has been asked/discussed before.

As I pass the time waiting patiently for Gods & Demons to be released (and pass the time at work, bored out of my mind), the topic of demons and devils and their use in a campaign has wandered across my mind. Which edition's fiends would be most appropriate?

At first I was thinking that I would probably use the 1st Edition ones, as those seem to go with C&C, flavor-wise. But then I started thinking; do I want the demons and devils more powerful than their 1e counterparts? As the 3.x ones are considerably more powerful than the 1e/2e ones (IMHO), would I want them to be a thorough challenge for my PCs?

One thing's for sure, no tanar'ri and baatzeu for me! I guess in the end I would probably use the 1e ones as they seem to be more appropriate, power-wise, to C&C. If I wanted some over-the-top fiendish denizens, I'd most likely go with 3.x

EDIT: Feel free to share any comments.

I have been using 3E versions.
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Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:15 pm**

I'd use the 1E MM for demons/devils.
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Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:15 pm**

What Rhuvein said. But add the Fiend Folio and MM II.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:35 pm**

1e mm and Fiend folio ditto redux

Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:54 pm**

You know, in about 16 years of gaming I have used Demons/Devils exactly once. That said I'll see what Gods and Demons has or convert from the SRD if I ever feel the need to again.
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Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:44 pm**

If I can't find it in M&T, I borrow heavily from the 1st ed. AD&D Monster Manuals I & II, as well as some from the Fiend Folio, for my demons, devils, and other monsters.
That is what I really love about C&C, none of my old 1st ed. stuff is obsolete.
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Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:14 pm**

Anyone remember the issue of Dragon that had stats for Satan?

Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:04 pm**

Thegreenman wrote:
Anyone remember the issue of Dragon that had stats for Satan?

Sure do! Issue #28, if I recall. I can remember a 95% Magic Resistance, a -8 AC, and 333 hp. He was one bad joker.

Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:33 pm**

IMO, the 1e demons and devils were real useless weaklings. Reason for which TSR much improved the demons they did for the MM2. On the other hand, the 3.5 demons were too powerful, and complicated to use. Hence, I had to create my own C&C version of those demons to suit my gaming needs (I have not done the devils and won't, as I see them of a redundant use). In terms of power they are more 3.0 like, but converted to C&C rules for ease of use. You can get them (along a version of the Death Knight) here:
Unfinished Creatures Features document - 15 MB.
Creature-Features_unfinished.pdf

But well, seeing most people do prefer the 1e versions, I am not sure if anyone will like them...
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Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:33 pm**

Bah, I don't really use Demons and Devils in my C&C games at this point. However, I use them in other games as needed. Though I am pretty much waiting until I can see C&C'd versions of the bad boys of the monster realms (demons/devils). I want to see what they can do and if they will be the same old cookie-cutter sh... stuff that we've seen since OD&D!

-O
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Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:34 pm**

I have to take some of my comment back. It seems I did use some of them such as Balors, Lemures and things like that. But they were monsters from an ancient world not demons/devils. Amazing that those notes survived.
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Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:39 pm**

My home game has Unklar as the BBEG, they have, and will continue to fight demons and devils. In fact they recently fought Pit Fiends. Nasty fight.
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Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:56 pm**

I use all versions , converted to whaterver I am playing . I also make up my own or mix up abilities to keep the players guessing . My players might say I use them too much .
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Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:16 pm**

Turanil wrote:
IMO, the 1e demons and devils were real useless weaklings. Reason for which TSR much improved the demons they did for the MM2. On the other hand, the 3.5 demons were too powerful, and complicated to use. Hence, I had to create my own C&C version of those demons to suit my gaming needs (I have not done the devils and won't, as I see them of a redundant use). In terms of power they are more 3.0 like, but converted to C&C rules for ease of use. You can get them (along a version of the Death Knight) here:
Unfinished Creatures Features document - 15 MB.
Creature-Features_unfinished.pdf

But well, seeing most people do prefer the 1e versions, I am not sure if anyone will like them...

The Creature features is brilliant stuff !! Thanks I use 2nd Planescape for fiends, I just tone down the xp a bit.

IMP

Troll Lord Games

Which demons and devils?

Which demons and devils?

Re: Which demons and devils?

Fiend folio