Troll Lord Games

Well I briefly mentioned I was running this in another thread but here's a bit more background and what's been happening.

I was all set to run my regular campaign when it got derailed at the last minute. I have 5 players but due to some unfortunate circumstances, 3 failed to show and 2 of those were last minute. Being undaunted and set to game but realizing that there was no way the current campaign could continue, I decided to pull out the Tomb of Horrors.

We've done a full session of it and I'm looking back at some of the mistakes I have made thus far. That isn't to say we didn't have fun though.

The first BIGGEST mistake was choosing to run through this module with ZERO prep time. Needless to say, I always put in a good deal of prep into my adventures -- this includes getting all the encounters ready and familiarizing myself with the adventure. Unfortunately I have never ran through this particular module before and have not actually read it.

Considering the short notice of the impromptu change to our regularly scheduled game, it is certainly a forgivable mistake but really it's an adventure that benefits from having the DM familiar with it.

The second mistake was simply how I chose to run it under C&C and convert it on the fly as I did.

There is a slight power scale difference between C&C and 1st Edition AD&D which I hadn't really considered at the time we embarked on this thing. I refer to the classes in this case. I used the pregens at the back of the module as a 'base' for the characters we created for this adventure. A 14th level cleric is a good deal more powerful in C&C than a 14th level cleric is in AD&D. For instance, the highest level spell level they had access to originally was 6th! Needless to say that various characters benefited from little power bumps. Since I don't use multi-classing as introduced in AD&D, some classes which were predominantly used in combination with something else got 'single-class' treatment. No racial level maximums either. Of course using the EPP of a 14th level Wizard as a guide... you might be able to imagine the level of the Rogue.

Of course, I immediately compensated for this by how I gaged the Challenge Levels of the Saves and Checks. Some might think I 'over-compensated'. Challenge Level was 10 + d12. I think it worked well though it might have made certain traps or checks even deadlier than the original.
Seeing that this is for the 'thinking player' ... the adventure is not suffering much at all which means the Tomb can be easily scaled up or down to fit the needs of the CK (DM). If I were to do it again... and I will... I'll go with a 900,001 XP per character. This would make the classes like the cleric level 12... the wizard level 11... a paladin level 10... and a rogue level 15. I'd also alter how I would do the Challenge Level and probably establish them before hand.

As a side note, I decided to check out the 3.5 conversion WOTC did which was available online. They set it up for a party of 9th level characters but seem to have thrown a couple of things in to pimp one of their products (Libris Mortis). Those bastards!

M
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Sounds like you did fine considering that you lacked the time to prep the adventure properly.

Breakdaddy wrote:
Sounds like you did fine considering that you lacked the time to prep the adventure properly.

Yep.

Plus 1E Cleric spells scale from 1 to 7, I think. C&C scales like 3E, 1 to 9. So some of those 6th level cleric spells in 1E are pretty powerful, actually.
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Treebore wrote:
Yep.

Plus 1E Cleric spells scale from 1 to 7, I think. C&C scales like 3E, 1 to 9. So some of those 6th level cleric spells in 1E are pretty powerful, actually.

I was thinking this too. Level 6 cleric spells in AD&D were pretty mighty stuff considering the scale from 1-7. C&C Cleric spells at that level tend to be less powerful. However, he is right about the disparity in power level between AD&D and C&C. Characters of equivalent XP in both systems would find the C&C group more powerful overall (aside from throwing in magic items that might tip the scales).

We played more later today... The adventure was a success. The party was victorious in the sense that they walked out though horribly scarred both physically and mentally. A large amount of spells had been spent in the end by both the Cleric and Wizard and I'm convinced that the slightly lower level cleric (level 12) would have been a closer 'match' to the level of a 14th level AD&D cleric. For one, it eliminates the possibility of a Cleric having access to 7th level spells (and thus no resurrection spell). Creating a party of up to 6 characters with 900,001 XP each is the ideal combination for running the module pretty much 'as-is' for C&C IMO.

In the end, the only two characters that did not die, were the Cleric and the Rogue.

In the end, they did not defeat the demi-lich.

M
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"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

There are certain discrepancies between AD&D and C&C, such as spell access (AD&D characters tend to have more powerful spells, and sometimes less powerful -- so, its a toss-up,) saves (C&C actually loses on this unless the difficulties are much lower than the character's level), attack capability (AD&D wins as more character types have multiple attacks / round), spells available (C&C wins as casters have more / day), versatility (obviously AD&D wins on this as it has multiclassing...) and so on and so forth, so it really depends on the nature of the module, the classes involved, and all that saxophone.

This makes a "direct level comparison" difficult, but not impossible. AD&D and C&C are comparable, vaguely, within 1-3 levels. For spellcasters, I'd make them lower than suggested because they have more compensation (no spell limits, basically, and more spells to cast, especially given the difficulty of the making saves in C&C...) but having slightly higher "other types."

So, I'd have not made a 14th level cleric -- I'd have used an 11th.

serleran wrote:
... so it really depends on the nature of the module, the classes involved, and all that saxophone.

This makes a "direct level comparison" difficult, but not impossible. AD&D and C&C are comparable, vaguely, within 1-3 levels. For spellcasters, I'd make them lower than suggested because they have more compensation (no spell limits, basically, and more spells to cast, especially given the difficulty of the making saves in C&C...) but having slightly higher "other types."

So, I'd have not made a 14th level cleric -- I'd have used an 11th.

Yes... the 14th was bit much. 11th or 12th would have done the trick with the only significant difference between the two is one more 5th and 6th level spell (no small thing I will grant) as well as the BtH going up by 1.

Of course, now I'm wondering how the game would have played with a sax going in the background at various moments of the adventure ... in the style of the Lethal Weapon movies.

DM: 'You see a fresco of the face of a green devil... mouth wide and open but revealing nothing but darkness....'

Player: 'I reach in...'

[Queue in the sax music]

M
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"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

An interesting parallel to this, Moriarty, came up in the first major "series" that Jungger ran our brother (Arkon) and I through. Adapting "Temple of Elemental Evil", Jungger did a direct conversion - Armor Class, attack abilities, the whole bit - for Lareth and his crew against our poor second-level boys. The result, as I've mentioned in previous threads, was a slaughter: two of our eight (four each for myself and Arkon) made it out barely alive.

I agree that there is a bit of a refocusing that needs to be done when adapting 1-2e AD&D into the C&C format, and this necessitates the prep time that you mentioned in the OP. For those who might be going, "Aw! Prep time? You mean I actually gotta do homework for this?", I think it's important to emphasize the difference between adjustment (AD&D/C&C) and wholesale conversion (pretty much any other game system). That so little, in a relative sense, needs to be done to create a successful adaptation speaks enormously well of TLG's "hewing to the bone" on Gary Gygax's original vision.

As an aside - and I don't know if this is an option for your players - but as a compensation for how our group was put through the meat grinder the first time, Jungger allowed the new characters we created to find two of our lost compatriots (our choice) in a cold room and brought back to town for true resurrections. This went a long way toward making up for the overpowered scrap we went through the first time.

I remember my first experience with the Tomb of Horrors. I was about 10. The DM was about 10. There was one other player that was also about 10. We rolled up 1st level characters and beat the tomb in about an hour. Talk about mistakes.

I bought the DMs copy of the module off of him some time later. I remember reading it for the first time and laughing at the discrepancies between how the 10 year old DM ran the thing and how it was actually written.

Scott

Telhawk wrote:
An interesting parallel to this, Moriarty, came up in the first major "series" that Jungger ran our brother (Arkon) and I through. Adapting "Temple of Elemental Evil", Jungger did a direct conversion - Armor Class, attack abilities, the whole bit - for Lareth and his crew against our poor second-level boys. The result, as I've mentioned in previous threads, was a slaughter: two of our eight (four each for myself and Arkon) made it out barely alive.

I agree that there is a bit of a refocusing that needs to be done when adapting 1-2e AD&D into the C&C format, and this necessitates the prep time that you mentioned in the OP.

Hehehe... I've run the part of that series for C&C and I had the prep necessary. To be honest, I didn't have to alter it too much and, though the party's exploration of the Moat House was painful, the party didn't go in as beginning characters either. The characters were within the level range of the module and creatures that didn't have a C&C equivalent were converted on the fly. However, I used the monster stats from the M&T book were I could. There was one unfortunate incident which involved the Dwarven Cleric and the Ogre. The Dwarf (who lost his armor due to green slime) went up charging the Ogre... the Ogre who (due to his size) struck first... the hit was a critical which, under my rules, ended up doing enough damage to kill him in one shot.

It ended up as a bit of a draw between the party and Lareth though, Lareth was able to walk out and gain his freedom, and the party didn't dare to stop him. It turned out to be in the party's best interest to accept Lareth's terms as much as it was in his to offer the terms to begin with.

Great fun!

After doing bits of T1 and a few other things, I weaved a campaign incorporating various elements... Lareth will be making a re-appearance (sooner or later) as of a few powerful enemies the party has made and couldn't defeat.
Back to the original topic though, I found the lower levels easier and closer to the C&C ones but the classic modules have ALWAYS been deadly regardless!

M
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"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com