More feedback needed for AGP products

jamesmishler · Post by **jamesmishler** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:49 pm

Okay, we now have a number of print and PDF products out there for people to read, use, and hopefully enjoy.

I've gotten some specific feedback on each of the various products, but now I need more feedback, specific and general.
Font and Columns: On all products, we have determined that the three-column Garamond font works best, usually in 10-point, though in PDF products we go with 12-point (page count is less of an issue). For Encounter booklets we are going with two columns with explanatory text in 10-point Garamond and actual encounter lines in 8-point (yeah, it's tiny, but more encounter tables can be fit, plus you do not read the whole text, just the line of the text associated with the encounter roll). This is, barring massive changes, the final form for all print and PDF products. It enables us to fit the most on every page, where with print that really, REALLY counts, though again with PDF-only products we go up on the font size.
Covers: All print products henceforth will have full-color covers, in the style used for other Castles & Crusades products though with a different trade dress. PDF-only products generally will not have covers.
Art: PDF-only products will have minimal if any art; it just does not pay. For every additional page of art I can charge an additional $0.25 per product, and that does not even pay for itself. Print products will have interior art as time and space allow, but in this case, text space is far more vital. In cases of print versions of Monster & Treasure books, however, art will be central to the product (see below).
Editing: We will have a professional editor working on these products beginning with the Southern Reaches Gazetteer. So reviewers will have to find something to complain about rather than my low ratio of typos.
What I do need to know is more along the lines of what more do the Wilderlands and Castles & Crusades fans WANT...
Monsters & Treasures of the Wilderlands 1 has sold quite well, best in fact of all the PDFs. So I know you guys want more monsters and treasures, and I know you want them in print, too. Ideally I will have one M&T PDF per month; the print format I'm still undecided on. I'm kicking around the idea of having all art for every creature be 1/4 page, four per page each set like a card, all on pages separate from the descriptions so that the art can be copied (for personal use) and the copies cut up so that Judges can easily show players what the monsters look like. Kind of like what they used to do in the old Arduin books. As each M&T PDF will be 20 pages going forward (16 monsters 1 per page, 3 pages of treasures, and the TOC/OGL page), with 16x 1/4 page illustrations of monsters all on four pages in the center, a 24-page print product is a possibility. What do you all think of that?
Barbarians of the Wilderlands 1 has not sold well at all, spectacularly poorly in fact when compared to the Warrior-Mage and Sorcerer materials that were given away free. So I think for now there will be no more time spent on alternative classes... Barbarians 2, with NPCs and war-parties and such for Judges, will see release eventually, as most of it is done...

As for the only specific Wilderlands adventure/source materials I have available to date, the preview of the Valley of the Dead Queens included in the 2008 Wilderlands Jam, such commentary as has been reveived has been positive, but I need much more feedback on this material. Those of you who have picked it up, please let me know what you think. Does the Sandbox Module format work for you? Do you need more detail or less? The first complete Sandbox Module, AGP00105 Huberic of Haghill, will release in print and PDF after the Southern Reaches Gazetteer; there will be a preview in the third issue of the Fight On! Old School Gaming (System Free) fanzine, the whole issue dedicated to Bob Bledsaw. There you can get a further preview of the Sandbox Module style.

So monsters and treasures, classes, adventure/source material... let me know what you want more of, and what specifically of that you want! Also, I'm gearing up toward the first true adventure module (i.e., dungeon crawl only) from AGP; the Judges Guide to Western Karak (the first District Sourcebook); and the next issue of Adventure Games Journal. So let me know what you want to see out of those as well!

Also, more pertinent in this thread in the General folder... what kind of general Castles & Crusades products would you all like to see? I am not limited to publishing Wilderlands-only products. So if you like C&C, and want to see something different, something other than Wilderlands for Castles & Crusades, let me know!
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:14 pm

Im glad youre going with full color covers on your future print releases, chief. The fonts are fine and the layout is good on the print stuff. I've never seen any of yer PDF releases so can't speak to those. You want to release something really useful? How about a book of spells with more options for Mages, ILLUSIONISTS, and Druids in particular. The Illusionist currently has an abysmal selection of spells and is generally not worth playing.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:28 pm

James... the direction were you are taking the stuff in terms of the format and looks sounds great.

Sure... who doesn't like cool Monsters and neat array of interesting items and treasure. I'll be just as happy if we only get a few of these during the course of a year as opposed to something every month. The format you suggest sounds interesting enough though but if you do go ahead monthly, I'd rather see a compilation volume of Monsters & Treasures every few months for a physical version -- maybe something like an annual?

Regarding Barbarians of the Wilderlands I ... give it a bit more time... it was the latest to come out. However, if it seems to be a issue of offering up additional classes... maybe a different approach is needed. The best thing about the class you presented was some of the different take on powers and abilities and some of the new ones you presents. But a book of skill and power variants that can be 'swapped' for an existing one might be really interesting too. I know that, if I decide not to use the barbarian that you presented, I'm going to at least change out some of the powers from the existing Barbarian in favor for these.

As a side note -- I also loved the two previous classes you offered and was one of the reasons I had to get the 2008 Wilderlands Jam. I wanted a physical copy for my bookshelf. I just got it yesterday so I'll be able to give you more feedback once I have a better chance to look through it.

Thanks again!

M
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jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:39 pm

Feedback... hmmm. perhaps not the sort of feedback you are looking for, but here it is nonetheless.

simply put, I'm confused.

As one of the first dozen or so who signed up for the "subscription" I'm currently challenged to see where *my* money is going. with only 1 product released as part of this sub, I'm certainly not getting my monies worth.

now, with all these pdf's, and some in print some not, I can no longer keep track of what is what, and in what order - what the vision is. it seems so scatter shot to me. Why would I buy a class book (even if it is in pdf format) when my sub can't even be fulfilled? Maybe if there were actually 2 or 3 books released, to prove/demonstrate that a line has some staying power then at this point maybe I'll commit.

Anyway, from the 2 products that I do have, the module from 07 gencon and the 1st installment of my subscription, I really like it. Just wish..... I don't know.... I didn't feel quite so much like an experiment.

Cheers,

J.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:06 am

Well, as one of the fellow subscribers, I can certainly understand the frustration. However, somewhere along the way, I got to be pretty relaxed about those sort of deadlines. I paid for so many issues and I know I will get them. We know that James hasn't fallen off the edge of the earth but we've also seen a particularly eventful year with Wilderlands material being in a state of flux for a while due to 4th Edition and licensing and a few other bumps in the road.

I'm really keen on seeing a new journal though and JMan has a point.

Keeping that in mind, and back to some of the original questions posed, articles like the Barbarian and other classes could have easily been material for the journal as would the initially planned Barbarians 2 pdf. If material like this can't stand on it's own as a separate pdf, then maybe the journal would be a good place for it. I know I would have been happy to receive those articles as a subscriber as this sort of thing interests me.

M
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"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:29 am

I would primarily like to see you focus on getting my subscription stuff produced.

I wasn't interested in the Barbarian because its been done so often on this board I wasn't interested in seeing yet another take.

I don't buy PDF's, I only get them (now a days) when I need them for running something on line and they have been put on sale. For example, I didn't buy the C&C PH until it was put on sale for $10, despite my running and playing games on line for the last two years.

So I can't give you feedback about the PDF stuff, other then what you offered for free.

The 2008 JAM was a very enjoyable read, I liked the adventure/location sections, I like the degree of detail and info, and I can't really think of anything to suggest as improvements.

Art is nice, but the only thing I consider essential is maps, and if there are monsters, pictures of them, but it sounds like you have them covered too. I probably won't buy the PDF's of monsters, I'll likely never buy them, or wait until they are in print.

Magic Items tempt me though, I really like your item write ups. So I may break down and buy PDF's with such things in them.
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Geleg · Post by **Geleg** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:46 pm

well, I'll chime in as well.

To an extent I share jman's frustration about the subscription - it'd be nice to have those products take first priority. I understand that you're a one-man shop and everything, and I'm not angry or worried about it. But, as jman said, it does seem that your energies are being sapped by multiple initiatives. Perhaps you need a partner or something? (not me, mind you)

As for future products. I like adventures. I'd like to see some fresh adventures, whether sandbox or dungeon or whatever (preferably some of each). I like monsters and treasure, but I already have a glut of monsters to choose from. Treasures would be, for me, more interesting, particularly carefully detailed and unusual ones (not necessarily artifact-level in power, just unique, with histories and/or special/unusual powers, quirks, etc). I've always liked the idea of making magic unique (not just "a +1 longsword" but "the lost blade of Suliman the Mage"). I'm not sure how commercial such a product would be, mind you. I'm also one of those who is less interested in crunch (i.e., new classes); I am basically content with the core C&C classes (with tweaks). For me the fun of gaming lies in the adventures, not the breadth of crunch. Others may disagree, of course.

As for the look, that is really of lesser interest to me than the content. Sure it's nice to have glitzy art (in color), but if that comes at too great a cost for you (time-wise, or cost-wise), then it isn't worth it. I thought AGJ #1 was awesome as it is, with almost no art at all. Same with XXXI.

In my opinion, fiddling with art, font, and so forth is no substitute for churning out product. After all, the art in the JG that we all love was pretty primitive, at least early on. It was the content and the rapid production of cool settings and adventures that made JG what it was (and is).

All of this said, I'll still support whatever you do!

Geleg
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cuchulainkevin · Post by **cuchulainkevin** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:45 pm

Add me to this list of those who buy only print products.

I picked up Wilderlands of High Adventure and the Adventure Games Journal #1 at LGGC this summer and I thought both were excellent products.

I'd certainly buy more of your products once they see print.

As for adventures, I'd like to see more Dark God/Hidden Cults in the CAS Lovecraftian vein.

I'm pretty open to most themes if they are generic enough to be ported over to my game world. Most themes 'cept pirates. For some reason pirate adventures/stories leave me cold.
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cuchulainkevin · Post by **cuchulainkevin** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:52 pm

BTW James, are there still copies of the 2008 Wilderlands Jam available?

Morty
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A Room Zoom Zoom. A Room Zoom Zoom. Gilly Gilly Gilly Gilly Ot Zat Za Come open the magic door with me, With your imagination there's so much we can see. There is a doorway that leads to a place. I'll find my way by the smile on your face.