Off The Anvil

cuchulainkevin · Post by **cuchulainkevin** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:52 pm

Just for S*(&S and Giggles (and to fuel by endless need for nerdology) I thought I'd see if anyone had a rumors about what happened to these upcomming Troll Releases and how close they actually got to seeing the light of day...

Note this is NOT a slam on the fact that they didn't get made- I'm well aware that in the rpg business things change.

But one of my favorite sites is the Aceanum and one of their coolest features (imo) is this page: http://www.acaeum.com/library/research.html

which deals with TSR products that could have been.

With that in mind:

anyone know anything about these lost gems?

what were they about?

how close they were to production?

what sunk the projects?

any chance they will they every see the light of day?
TLG 8204, For the Streets of Bergaine

TLG 1015, Ogre Horde, A d20 system Source Book.

TLG 1904, City Sourcebook Vol II, Maps

TLG 1905, City Sourcebook Vol III, Campaigns

TLG NGF5, Family Affair

TLG 7004, Melee, The Castles & Crusades Tournament BoardGame

TLG 1014 Halls of Wood, Halls of Stone

A d20 System Source Book

A multitude of adventures and settings, ranging in level, climate and terrain. Easily converted to any setting.

TLG 7006, Dragon Lairds

I purposely left out any of the Trigee/Gygax Games properties because a) we all know what happened to those and b) no one knows what will happen with those.

Feel free to add any other missing products to the list.
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Coleston the Cavalier · Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:17 pm

OT a bit.

I just followed your link to The Acaeum, and looked up some older stuff about Kuntz and Gygax. Holy cow, there seems to be some history and issues between the two - at least from what I read. Maybe that's old news to everybody else.

I just knew Gary and only that for the last year or so of his life. Lot's a past stuff I am just not aware of.

Neat thread by the way. I hope it doesn't cause anyone working on the CKG to stop working in order to post!

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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:29 pm

Interesting. I know what page you're talking about, Kevin. That's one of my favorite pages, too.

Cool info, sir. I'm rather curious about a good portion of those items as well - if only to find out "what could have been."

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:07 pm

cuchulainkevin wrote:
Just for S*(&S and Giggles (and to fuel by endless need for nerdology) I thought I'd see if anyone had a rumors about what happened to these upcomming Troll Releases and how close they actually got to seeing the light of day...

Note this is NOT a slam on the fact that they didn't get made- I'm well aware that in the rpg business things change.

But one of my favorite sites is the Aceanum and one of their coolest features (imo) is this page: http://www.acaeum.com/library/research.html

which deals with TSR products that could have been.

With that in mind:

anyone know anything about these lost gems?

what were they about?

how close they were to production?

what sunk the projects?

any chance they will they every see the light of day?
TLG 8204, For the Streets of Bergaine

TLG 1015, Ogre Horde, A d20 system Source Book.

TLG 1904, City Sourcebook Vol II, Maps

TLG 1905, City Sourcebook Vol III, Campaigns

TLG NGF5, Family Affair

TLG 7004, Melee, The Castles & Crusades Tournament BoardGame

TLG 1014 Halls of Wood, Halls of Stone

A d20 System Source Book

A multitude of adventures and settings, ranging in level, climate and terrain. Easily converted to any setting.

TLG 7006, Dragon Lairds

I purposely left out any of the Trigee/Gygax Games properties because a) we all know what happened to those and b) no one knows what will happen with those.

Feel free to add any other missing products to the list.

Well, the rest got removed due to 'not getting around too its' reasons. I expect, eventually, these will see the light of day for C&C.

Melee's being worked on.

As for Dragon Lairds, I distinctly saw that for sale at Margaret Weis's booth at GenCon.
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:31 am

Re: TLG 8204, For the Streets of Bergaine

The original author of this was Fiff and it was to be a city based Thieves war, but it ended up too similar in concept to another TLG product and so Fiff shelved the idea. I asked him if I could use the module name for a city based adventure I'm working on and he agreed. CKG has priority, but maybe when that's done this one will see print after all; albeit in a slightly different format.
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Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:06 am

Yeah, saw Dragon Lairds for sale at a local game shop. It has been released! For those not in the know, it's a fun game developed by Jim Ward and Tom Wham.
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cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:32 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Melee's being worked on.

It is?!? Why wasn't I notified?
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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:49 pm

Anyone know if Castle Zagyg: Teeth of Barkash Nour will see the light of day? Is it on hold until Castle Zagyg: The Dungeons comes out?
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:05 pm

Quote:
TLG NGF5, Family Affair

I think this was a Necromancer Games module released via TLG... no?
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seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:32 pm

Keolander wrote:
Anyone know if Castle Zagyg: Teeth of Barkash Nour will see the light of day? Is it on hold until Castle Zagyg: The Dungeons comes out?

This is just a guess, complete speculation and I preface it by saying I am NOT in the know, but is purely supposition of my own:

The CZ: The Dungeons product is still On the Anvil. Teeth of Barkash Nour is not. Gygax Games' release from this summer indicated that they wished TLG to concentrate on the "CZ Castle" material, of which Upper Works was the 1st. Gygax Games also recalled its LA IP, not just from TLG but from Chris Clark and Hekaforge as well. Their release also mentioned that Gygax Games would be concentrating on GFW and CZ material as well.

So my (purely) speculation (and deepest hope!) is that the central Castle material, The Dungeons and perhaps further expansions into the depths of CZ, will be left to TLG and Jeff. However, GG seems likely to recall all ANCILLARY Gygax IP, including things like Barkash Nour that can be released by them directly or through another deal, or not at all (and that's really GG's call that we are all, including the Trolls, waiting on).

Ok, so don't say "I heard on TLG boards that..." because I'm just speculating here, and I in no way represent officially or unofficially any entity involved here. Steve and TLG are, in my opinion, handling this as well as possible because they, too, are at the mercy of decisions by the license holders. Perhaps, if Upper Works is a great success (it already is artistically as a product) on the market, more will be given back over.

For the time being it's a waiting game. Frustrating until Gygax Games sorts itself out and begins making announcements, but there it is.

My two cents.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:46 pm

cheeplives wrote:
It is?!? Why wasn't I notified?

*chuckles* It's being worked on in the sense that it hasn't gone off the radar like the rest of that list.
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Darius · Post by **Darius** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:19 pm

Coleston the Cavalier wrote:
OT a bit.

I just followed your link to The Acaeum, and looked up some older stuff about Kuntz and Gygax. Holy cow, there seems to be some history and issues between the two - at least from what I read. Maybe that's old news to everybody else.

Not sure what you are exactly referring to. Rob played with Gary. He ended up writing some Greyhawk material. He worked for TSR. So given around a 30 year history it would not surprise me that there would be issues.

If I recall correctly, prior to Gary's death there was a tiff between the two. I do not remember the details. Something like Rob was supposed to do some work on something (I think maybe they were trying to work together again) and Rob never did the work. Gary finally pulled the project which upset Rob. It turns out there were personal/health issues with Rob that was holding him back. They pretty much cooled off a few weeks before Gary's death. Rob posted something about how he would miss his friend Gary on dragonsfoot.

This all of course supposes that not only I remember this event, but I also am not confusing Kuntz with someone else

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:27 pm

seskis281 wrote:
This is just a guess, complete speculation and I preface it by saying I am NOT in the know, but is purely supposition of my own:

The CZ: The Dungeons product is still On the Anvil. Teeth of Barkash Nour is not. Gygax Games' release from this summer indicated that they wished TLG to concentrate on the "CZ Castle" material, of which Upper Works was the 1st. Gygax Games also recalled its LA IP, not just from TLG but from Chris Clark and Hekaforge as well. Their release also mentioned that Gygax Games would be concentrating on GFW and CZ material as well.

So my (purely) speculation (and deepest hope!) is that the central Castle material, The Dungeons and perhaps further expansions into the depths of CZ, will be left to TLG and Jeff. However, GG seems likely to recall all ANCILLARY Gygax IP, including things like Barkash Nour that can be released by them directly or through another deal, or not at all (and that's really GG's call that we are all, including the Trolls, waiting on).

Ok, so don't say "I heard on TLG boards that..." because I'm just speculating here, and I in no way represent officially or unofficially any entity involved here. Steve and TLG are, in my opinion, handling this as well as possible because they, too, are at the mercy of decisions by the license holders. Perhaps, if Upper Works is a great success (it already is artistically as a product) on the market, more will be given back over.

For the time being it's a waiting game. Frustrating until Gygax Games sorts itself out and begins making announcements, but there it is.

My two cents.

I'm going to throw my 2 cents in this as well.

I don't expect an official announcement until mid October at the earliest. But, I think that will be too early, if I had to bet it would be the announcement will be in January. Why? We're going into the third quarter now and I don't see anything starting until Q1 next year. Add in the recent finance trouble and that makes securing funds for anything tough. Disclaimer: I'm no business or economics expert, I just going by what I have seen other businesses do. And remember TLG and GG are businesses.

That said, I think all of the CZ stuff should remain in TLG's hands or at least with C&C, If it goes to a generic system I don't know how interested I would really be in it. And I also hope GFW stays with TLG too. It helped TLG get on the map and I feel it is a staple of the company.
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Coleston the Cavalier · Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:11 pm

Darius wrote:
Not sure what you are exactly referring to. Rob played with Gary. He ended up writing some Greyhawk material. He worked for TSR. So given around a 30 year history it would not surprise me that there would be issues.

If I recall correctly, prior to Gary's death there was a tiff between the two. I do not remember the details. Something like Rob was supposed to do some work on something (I think maybe they were trying to work together again) and Rob never did the work. Gary finally pulled the project which upset Rob. It turns out there were personal/health issues with Rob that was holding him back. They pretty much cooled off a few weeks before Gary's death. Rob posted something about how he would miss his friend Gary on dragonsfoot.

This all of course supposes that not only I remember this event, but I also am not confusing Kuntz with someone else

It was about the first few years of the Doomsday Book Society or some such thing. Folks at the sight were asking Rob & Gary about details like who was the president, treasurer, etc. Gary was countering (with foul language too) nearly all of Rob's statements as being untrue.

Super-detailed reply, I know.

It's towards the bottom. Maybe I misread it.
http://www.acaeum.com/library/castlecrusade.html
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dachda · Post by **dachda** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:11 pm

I wonder if the holdup on Gygax Games announcing anything, is because Gary's will is still in probate. Even if Gail is to receive all Gary's IP and copyrights the will may still have to be probated before she has official legal permission herself to continue with the licensing. Gary and TLG may have already had a contract for CZ which held up when he died, but the other licensing might have been pulled from both hekaforge and TLG because those copyrights are discussed in the will and were not contracted for before Gary died. That could be why both companies lost the LA rights and why Gygax Games has not yet released any information.

This is all speculation. As Seskis writes I am NOT in the know. Just speculation from a law student currently taking a wills & trusts course.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:33 pm

Actually, all such speculation does more harm than good. Just as well to leave it be and not let any more threads veer off into speculating about or airing dirty linen.
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Coleston the Cavalier · Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:52 pm

Okay boss. I was little crazy this weekend.
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dachda · Post by **dachda** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:54 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Actually, all such speculation does more harm than good. Just as well to leave it be and not let any more threads veer off into speculating about or airing dirty linen.

Yeah, you're probably right. We'll just have to hold tight and wait for official announcements. as they say in the software gaming world "It'll be ready when it's ready."
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:10 pm

Coleston the Cavalier wrote:
Okay boss. I was little crazy this weekend.

*chuckles* Wasn't picking on anyone in particular, I'm just trying to head a stampede off at the pass before it gets any momentum.
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Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:42 pm

As for Gary & Rob and CZ - it mainly boiled down to an artistic difference on how to present it. Obviously, the ideas were different and they parted ways. There might have been a few minor issues, but I do believe that that was the main problem.
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Coleston the Cavalier · Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:51 pm

Deogolf, our inside man!
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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:59 pm

Deogolf wrote:
As for Gary & Rob and CZ - it mainly boiled down to an artistic difference on how to present it. Obviously, the ideas were different and they parted ways. There might have been a few minor issues, but I do believe that that was the main problem.

Which in the end worked out for fans since Rob is releasing his Lake Geneva Castle & Campaign works like The Original Living Room and Bottle City. The only real downer is that Dark Chateau is unlikely to see expansion.
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Buttmonkey · Post by **Buttmonkey** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:31 pm

Coleston the Cavalier wrote:
Deogolf, our inside man!

Actually, if you want to dig around, you can find EGG's take on the whole mess in his various Q&A threads. They are collected at Dragonsfoot and, for all I know, here as well.

Coleston the Cavalier · Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:42 pm

Thanks Buttmonkey.

Did I meet you at the last LGGC?
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Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:46 pm

Buttmonkey wrote:
Actually, if you want to dig around, you can find EGG's take on the whole mess in his various Q&A threads. They are collected at Dragonsfoot and, for all I know, here as well.

That's true, too. But, it was quicker this way!
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dachda · Post by **dachda** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:33 pm

Edited out.
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Buttmonkey · Post by **Buttmonkey** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:19 pm

Deleted.

Buttmonkey · Post by **Buttmonkey** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:21 pm

Coleston the Cavalier wrote:
Thanks Buttmonkey.

Did I meet you at the last LGGC?

I don't think so. I attended on Saturday in 2007, but couldn't make it in 2008. Grr!

AGNKim · Post by **AGNKim** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:02 pm

Coleston the Cavalier wrote:
Thanks Buttmonkey.

Did I meet you at the last LGGC?

You are probably confusing him with me. You kept calling me "The dude with a face like a monkey's ass". Easy to mix that up.
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Coleston the Cavalier · Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:20 pm

AGNKim wrote:
You are probably confusing him with me. You kept calling me "The dude with a face like a monkey's ass". Easy to mix that up.

Oh yeah, you were that guy!

I'm still very thankful for the trip, Mr. Kim.
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