Economy crisis and RPGs ?

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Re: Trolls in a Storm

Post by Fat Dragon Games »

Troll Lord wrote:
Then Davis, fearing a rush on the grocery store and the complete absence of cigarettes, hit mark with a hammer and rolled him up in a blanket and started smoking/eating him.

Holy crap... Ted Turner was right!
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Post by papercut »

Maybe it will be great for RPG! With less disposable income and expensive transportation fees, families may stay in for a change. Its just like Donald Trump said, "Branding," and "Location, Location, Location."
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Post by Orpheus »

papercut wrote:
Maybe it will be great for RPG! With less disposable income and expensive transportation fees, families may stay in for a change. Its just like Donald Trump said, "Branding," and "Location, Location, Location."

Actually, this thought occured to me. I'm afraid, however, that families would stay in and play the Wii instead of playing an RPG or board game.

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Re: Trolls in a Storm

Post by Orpheus »

Fat Dragon Games wrote:
Holy crap... Ted Turner was right!

Now THAT'S funny!

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Post by Luther »

dachda wrote:
"University of Michigan law professor Michael Barr testified back in February before the House Committee on Financial Services that 50% of subprime loans were made by mortgage service companies not subject to comprehensive federal supervision and another 30% were made by affiliates of banks or thrifts which are not subject to routine supervision or examinations. As former Fed Governor Ned Gramlich said in an August, 2007, speech shortly before he passed away: In the subprime market where we badly need supervision, a majority of loans are made with very little supervision. It is like a city with a murder law, but no cops on the beat.

But the question is why did they do this? Because the CRA made it A. Difficult to open new branches and avoid fines without a 'diverse' portfolio and B. because they knew that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would eventually buy back any loans that went south. It's a carrot and stick situation, which is exactly how it was envisioned when the bill went before Clinton and the Democrat congress in 1995.

As far as supervision goes,there is a reason supervision was so limited. Chris Dodd (D, no.1 recipient) and Barney Frank (D, no.3 recipient) were head of the Banking and Finance commitees respectively and they along with Barack Obama (D, no.2 recipient) and John Kerry (D, no.4 recipient) were the top recipients of 'campaign money' from both of these government instituted bailout machines which might go some way to explaining why they've been downplaying the coming crisis for years (up to last July, actually) as well as poo-poohing the need for more supervision and oversight. Bush, McCain and other republicans have attempted to add more regulation to these two banks, but have been stymied at every turn by cries of 'racism' and resistance by house and senate democrats, since 2000.
Quote:
Also this:

"Not surprisingly given the higher degree of supervision, loans made under the CRA program were made in a more responsible way than other subprime loans. CRA loans carried lower rates than other subprime loans and were less likely to end up securitized into the mortgage-backed securities that have caused so many losses, according to a recent study by the law firm Traiger & Hinckley (PDF file here).

Okay, you got me. The subprime loans were of a lower rate. Unfortunately, the vast majority of those raters were ARMs, so when the housing market relaxed and other economic factors kicked in, all those 'cheap' $600/month mortgages turned into $1900/month mortgages, and with a depressed housing market, families who could no longer afford their homes couldn't sell them to get out from under them. Hence, the foreclosures.

And to top it all off, the bill signed in 1995 allowed lenders to consider welfare payments as 'income' when applying for a loan. So we're talking about people with houses who couldn't even afford to live in a shanty without government assitance in many cases. Is that the best bet for getting your money back? Probably not.

In fact, the biggest sign of the coming housing problem had to be the birth of the 'distressed housing' business of the 90's. Remember the horde of TV ads for guys (that Vietnamese guy in particular) who had a 'secret system' to show you how to make easy money buying 'distressed properties?' Well, their 'secret' (which was no secret to anyone who knew the market) was that the bad loans that Fannie and Freddie purchased eventually end up being sold at dead cheap prices like second hand clothing. This of course led to housing prices dipping even more as folks who had no business owning a house and no interest in keeping it up, merely renting it, caused a decline in the quality of the neighbourhoods they lived in.
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Finally, keep in mind that the Bush administration has been weakening CRA enforcement and the laws reach since the day it took office. The CRA was at its strongest in the 1990s, under the Clinton administration, a period when subprime loans performed quite well. It was only after the Bush administration cut back on CRA enforcement that problems arose, a timing issue which should stop those blaming the law dead in their tracks. The Federal Reserve, too, did nothing but encourage the wild west of lending in recent years. It wasnt until the middle of 2007 that the Fed decided it was time to crack down on abusive pratices in the subprime lending market. "

The reason it was strongest in the 90's isn't becuase it was a good system, it was because housing prices stayed up and the effects of Clinton's other economic policies during his second term wouldn't be seen until the first term of the next president. Economies don't turn on a dime.

The market started to go south after the millenium, the decline was accelerated by 9/11, the Bush Tax cuts kept it from going completely under, but speculation ran rampant and the housing bubble burst last year. Up until July of this year, Chris Dodd, chairman of the banking commitee, has been saying that both these agencies are solvent and doing well, despite the 6.3 billion scandal which forced CEO Franklin Raines to step down and join the Obama Campaign as a financial advisor along with Jim Johnson, the former head of Freddie Mac.

Bush never cut back on enforcement for Fannie and Freddie. In fact, he was trying to bring the problem up in 2003, McCain brought it up again in 2005 and a host of other congressfolk and senators have been bringing it up for years. It is folks receiving money from the two banks that have said consistently 'no oversight is needed.' You can actually Youtube Barney Frank saying that all the concern was 'overblown.'

The Fed, by the way, probably acted as it did because it was trying to keep the boat afloat. But even Alan Greenspan (who was no financial genius, IMO) said that these two banks were going to cause a major problem down the line, especially as they were closely linked to numerous other financial entities, Lehman Brothers being a superlative example.

Do the republicans bear some blame? Certainly, but it was because they let class politics, in particular the fear of being branded as racist or insensitive to the poor, make their decisions. It also didn't help that, instead of being true conservatives, they spent 4 years acting like frat boys with an unlimited trust fund instead of stewarding the government and following up the Bush Tax Cuts with reduction of government spending and repairing the Social Security system (our next great financial disaster).

They paid for that in 2006, but that started another era of ridiculousness, some of which I've already mentioned, that falls outside of this discussion...

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Post by Treebore »

Several problems with the facts in your post Luther, but I will only point out you indicate the 1995 Congress was a Democrat congress, it was Republican.

Remember the government shut downs of 1995 to 1996? Clinton versus the Republican congress.

Pointing out your other errors would definitely take this over the edge and solidly into "politics".
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Post by Luther »

Treebore wrote:
Several problems with the facts in your post Luther, but I will only point out you indicate the 1995 Congress was a Democrat congress, it was Republican.

Remember the government shut downs of 1995 to 1996? Clinton versus the Republican congress.

Pointing out your other errors would definitely take this over the edge and solidly into "politics".

Oops, I meant 94. That was the year of the bill I'm talking about. Slip of the brain. 1994 was the year the Community Development Banking and Fincancial Insitutions Act was passed.

As for the other points, PM me. I'm always up to being corrected... assuming you're correct, of course...

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Post by Troll Lord »

Damnit! My foot's missing. Looks like someone gnawed it off!! Things are going crazy down here in Arkansas.

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Post by Omote »

What's left of Mark ate yo damn foot off!

-O
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Post by AGNKim »

Troll Lord wrote:
Damnit! My foot's missing. Looks like someone gnawed it off!! Things are going crazy down here in Arkansas.

Steve

Oh My GOD! I was just at Troll Lord's HQ with Mark and he gave me some of his lunch, some pot roast with potatoes he said he cooked in the crock pot. Now I know it was Foot O' Chenault instead.

It was still damned good though. You still got another foot, right?
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Post by gideon_thorne »

AGNKim wrote:
Oh My GOD! I was just at Troll Lord's HQ with Mark and he gave me some of his lunch, some pot roast with potatoes he said he cooked in the crock pot. Now I know it was Foot O' Chenault instead.

It was still damned good though. You still got another foot, right?

I don't think anyone wants something that Steve has in his mouth all the time.
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Post by dachda »

gideon_thorne wrote:
I don't think anyone wants something that Steve has in his mouth all the time.

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Post by Orpheus »

Luther wrote:
Oops, I meant 94. That was the year of the bill I'm talking about. Slip of the brain. 1994 was the year the Community Development Banking and Fincancial Insitutions Act was passed.

As for the other points, PM me. I'm always up to being corrected... assuming you're correct, of course...

You're right. The CRA was strengthened in 1994 and went into effect in 1995. The incoming congress of 1995 had nothing to do with it. I'd like to say that there's plenty of blame to go around, but I don't think that there's a whole hell of a lot of it. I'm certainly not saying that all democrats were behind keeping Feddie and Frannie going. In fact, it's really only a handful of them. You can pretty much pick out who they are, because they happen to be the ones in the spotlight at the moment. I don't think that this is a result of predominant democratic party ideology. I think that it's the result of a few, powerful democrats who made poor decisions to be "fair" to lower-income people. Everyone should have a home, but not until they can pay for it and they should only get that which they can pay for. I really don't see this as an "our-side-their-side" political issue. It's an economic, fiscal, and credit issue that's not going to go away until something is done about those un-vauled assets that are sitting on the banks', lenders' and securities traders' books. Pass the freakin' bill that's been proposed (the newest one written up by the Senate) and get the first part of this taken care of. I've heard idiots on both sides of the aisle in the last few days. I heard Dennis Kucinich on Fox Business on XM talking about how important it was to gid rid of "mark-to-market" accounting and then couldn't explain the difference between book and fair value. Those twelve Republicans who are making a lovely little show in the House propsing 0% capital gains taxes and the repatriation of U.S. companies' foreign holdings need to wake up and realize that they are not the majority at the moment. Those things are freakin' great in my opinion, but be realistic fellas. You're not getting those through so read The Prince and then go work on something that can make both sides happy. Then explain to the public what actually will transpire during this "bailout."

Now. Let's all go get wasted!
I'm buyin'.

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Post by dachda »

Orpheus wrote:
You're right. The CRA was strengthened in 1994 and went into effect in 1995. The incoming congress of 1995 had nothing to do with it. I'd like to say that there's plenty of blame to go around, but I don't think that there's a whole hell of a lot of it. I'm certainly not saying that all democrats were behind keeping Feddie and Frannie going. In fact, it's really only a handful of them. You can pretty much pick out who they are, because they happen to be the ones in the spotlight at the moment. I don't think that this is a result of predominant democratic party ideology. I think that it's the result of a few, powerful democrats who made poor decisions to be "fair" to lower-income people. Everyone should have a home, but not until they can pay for it and they should only get that which they can pay for. I really don't see this as an "our-side-their-side" political issue. It's an economic, fiscal, and credit issue that's not going to go away until something is done about those un-vauled assets that are sitting on the banks', lenders' and securities traders' books. Pass the freakin' bill that's been proposed (the newest one written up by the Senate) and get the first part of this taken care of. I've heard idiots on both sides of the aisle in the last few days. I heard Dennis Kucinich on Fox Business on XM talking about how important it was to gid rid of "mark-to-market" accounting and then couldn't explain the difference between book and fair value. Those twelve Republicans who are making a lovely little show in the House propsing 0% capital gains taxes and the repatriation of U.S. companies' foreign holdings need to wake up and realize that they are not the majority at the moment. Those things are freakin' great in my opinion, but be realistic fellas. You're not getting those through so read The Prince and then go work on something that can make both sides happy. Then explain to the public what actually will transpire during this "bailout."

Now. Let's all go get wasted!
I'm buyin'.

I'm agreeing with Treebore, this part of the thread should probably move to PMs, or another website entirely. The 'why we're in this financial mess' stuff invariably leads to blaming someone, and while there may be some substantiation available to back up blame claims the evidence is generally too much and too large or complex for a gaming forum to handle. But without the evidence things tend toward, and ultimately lead to people feeling angry and unheard. Definetly not what we need here.

Let's just discuss, the delicacies of Mark's crockpot stew of Steve's foot instead. I suggest we add some fennel along with the usual, potatos, carrots, celery and so on. Fennel adds a unique flavor to a meat stew.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Crockpot a foot?

Bah.

Master foot chefs around the globe know that a foot should be smoked.

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Post by dachda »

Smoked, yumm I'd try that!

Do we let the dog chew the bone after dinner?
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Post by DangerDwarf »

dachda wrote:
Do we let the dog chew the bone after dinner?

Standards dictate the winner of a "Best 2 out of 3 Paper Rock Scissors tournament" gets the bone.

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Post by Lord Dynel »

DangerDwarf wrote:
Crockpot a foot?

Bah.

Master foot chefs around the globe know that a foot should be smoked.

I don't know DD...in my neck of the woods, we boil the foot down to make a nice foot stock (great for gravies) and then throw the foot into a vat of beans...a "foot hock" if you will.
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Post by csperkins1970 »

Omote wrote:
Ayup.

I purchased my home 5 years ago with the hope to sell it off and move on to bigger and better, but this GD market killed that for me. Now I'm stuck in a house I don't want to live in anymore and won't be worth what I paid for it for 5-10 more years. Great.

-O

WOW!! That's exactly what my wife and I did. We bought a "starter house" in 2004 with the hopes of fixing it up a little and trading up to a better home when the value of our first house went up...

Obviously, in this market, that ain't gonna happen. Grrr!
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Post by Luther »

csperkins1970 wrote:
WOW!! That's exactly what my wife and I did. We bought a "starter house" in 2004 with the hopes of fixing it up a little and trading up to a better home when the value of our first house went up...

Obviously, in this market, that ain't gonna happen. Grrr!

You guys can consider yourself lucky. One of the things about this problem that have really pissed me off affects not me, but my best friend, whom I think of as a brother, we're that close.

Tom is a Lt.Cmdr in the Navy and was reposted to San Diego from Rhode Island. Unfortunately, his house just can't be sold at anything close to what he bought it for. He's even tried to short sell it, where the bank basically says 'Ok, we'll allow you to sell it for less and just call the rest a wash, but your credit will take a dent for a few years' but can't find someone willing to pony up even 2/3 the price.

Because of this, he has had to live in San Diego without his wife and three kids for a few months now, as they have to stay behind until the house sells because they can't afford to pay rent and a mortgage at the same time, even though he makes good money and has a housing allowance. He is incredibly lonely without his family, as I would be, so consider yourselves fortunate that you still have yours stuck in the house with you...

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Post by csperkins1970 »

Luther wrote:
Because of this, he has had to live in San Diego without his wife and three kids for a few months now, as they have to stay behind until the house sells because they can't afford to pay rent and a mortgage at the same time, even though he makes good money and has a housing allowance. He is incredibly lonely without his family, as I would be, so consider yourselves fortunate that you still have yours stuck in the house with you...

Damn, that's rough... though a few month without my wife wouldn't be the worst thing ever.
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Post by Fiffergrund »

First, I'd like to say thank you for the self-moderation.

Second, I'd like to stress just how VERY close several people came in this thread to getting a ban. If it wasn't for the self-moderation, it would have happened.

The facts are out there and we don't need to talk about them here. Use the search engine of your choice and get informed. For this forum, let's keep this related to RPGs.

Thanks.
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Post by Omote »

Banned?!?! Jeez.

-O
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Post by gideon_thorne »

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Post by CharlieRock »

TLG strikes me as the kindof tough little company that wont crackunder external pressure.

And, I know that I am going ot keep buying books from them. Especially when Towers of Adventure comes out ... hint hint
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Post by Treebore »

Luther wrote:
You guys can consider yourself lucky. One of the things about this problem that have really pissed me off affects not me, but my best friend, whom I think of as a brother, we're that close.

Tom is a Lt.Cmdr in the Navy and was reposted to San Diego from Rhode Island. Unfortunately, his house just can't be sold at anything close to what he bought it for. He's even tried to short sell it, where the bank basically says 'Ok, we'll allow you to sell it for less and just call the rest a wash, but your credit will take a dent for a few years' but can't find someone willing to pony up even 2/3 the price.

Because of this, he has had to live in San Diego without his wife and three kids for a few months now, as they have to stay behind until the house sells because they can't afford to pay rent and a mortgage at the same time, even though he makes good money and has a housing allowance. He is incredibly lonely without his family, as I would be, so consider yourselves fortunate that you still have yours stuck in the house with you...

I hope your friend/brothers command has informed him of the military "buy your house" program. I believe he has to wait a frickin year, but the military will buy his house. Of course the current government may have decided that was too good of a program and cancelled it, but it was in effect in 2005.
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Post by Luther »

I'll ask him about that, although I'm sure he must have put in for it already if he could. Maybe the year wait started when he was posted last June.

But even then, man, a whole year without the family? He and I both would find that nigh unbearable.

Thanks, though, Tree...

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Post by Orpheus »

Fiffergrund wrote:
First, I'd like to say thank you for the self-moderation.

Second, I'd like to stress just how VERY close several people came in this thread to getting a ban. If it wasn't for the self-moderation, it would have happened.

The facts are out there and we don't need to talk about them here. Use the search engine of your choice and get informed. For this forum, let's keep this related to RPGs.

Thanks.

I certainly apologize if I was one of the people who came close. I tried to make it very clear in my post that I didn't feel that this was a wholly partisan issue and therfore didn't mean to make it a back-and-forth political argument. I feel that this was a failure of government in general and not Left or Right...and I'm a Nation Review-readin', Ayn Rand-lovin' Republican!!!!

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Post by Orpheus »

CharlieRock wrote:
TLG strikes me as the kindof tough little company that wont crackunder external pressure.

And, I know that I am going ot keep buying books from them. Especially when Towers of Adventure comes out ... hint hint

I'm sure that Treebore is keeping the RPG industry as a whole afloat. Serleran is somewhere maintaining the collecter's and out-of-print market going all by himself.

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Re: Trolls in a Storm

Post by Dranoel »

Troll Lord wrote:
First let me address the concerns about TLG.



TLG will weather it however, we'll weather it the way we always weather crises. Hard work, sacrifice and a commitment to ever better games and gaming material.

TROLLZAH.

Thanks for Playing,

Steve

Well said friend. Hard work & commitment = continuing to do things that make you and your customers happy.

Continued success...

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