Troll Lord Games

I am a little afraid of the looming economy crisis and impending recession. I am wondering how it will affect RPG publishers as well. I hope Troll Lords will survive through it, but I guess it may have some bad effects on them publishing new books, such as the CKG... At least, one good point is that C&C books are cheap; you don't need to spend hundreds of dollars to play that game.

On the other hand, I guess 4e won't fare that well, as it asks for ever more purchases. I always thought 4e would be the last iteration of (so-called) D&D. Not that I will cry over the death of 4e though...
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www.lythia.com: Free resources for Harn but also adaptable to any medieval setting.

Frankie says, "Relax!"

Zebulon wrote:
On the other hand, I guess 4e won't fare that well, as it asks for ever more purchases. I always thought 4e would be the last iteration of (so-called) D&D. Not that I will cry over the death of 4e though...

I'm with you on this.

As to the economy, I try not to discuss topics like these. All I care to say is that as long as the Trolls don't overextend themselves, which I seriously doubt they will, they should be fine.

The economy will be just fine. Don't go jumping off a cliff just yet!
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Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!

Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
http://jimhollowayart.com/id5.html

My only problem right now (besides my 401k evaporating into thin air after only having just recovered after 9/11) is I'm really on the fence about whether I want the bailout or not.

Pro: The Economy doesn't go in the tank, along with my multimedia design business which is usually linked to the 'frivilous expenses' side of the economy when accountants start tightening their client's belts, and I might actually have some sort of a 401k left by the end of the year as well.

Cons: Bailouts = rewarded negligence and no-one ever learns from their mistakes by being rewarded for bad behaviour (especially politicians, who are almost solely to blame for this mess, a few greedy corporate skydivers aside).

If we don't get the bailout, the economy might well survive, but more importantly, people might finally wake up, pull their heads out of their rears and realize that the 'spend beyond our means' meme has got to end along with entitlements for folks who just don't want to pull their own weight and million dollar rewards for those who burn their companies to the ground to make a quick profit. We'll actually have to rebuild the economy the good old fashioned way: by hard work and saving, not stock speculation and gambling with our retirements.

I believe in capitalism and don't think we need endless regulation (which, make no mistake, caused this mess in the first place, starting 31 years ago with the Community Reinvestment Act and compunded with the 1995 buffing of that act). I think a few simple rules would help tremendously.

1. Set a maximum compensation level for CEO's and other executives based on economic markers (and negate rewarding them for company failure) and institute a rule that forces a company to eliminate bonuses and executive compensation before laying off lower level workers (in other words, before you fiore people, make sure you aren't being paid as much as 100 of them combined).

2. Get rid of the CRA and any other regulation which arm-twists banks or other free market entities into making bad business decisions which will lead to bailouts in the first place.

And this is one I came up with that would work wonders in keeping competition fierce, eliminating anti-trust issues and spurring better quality products...

3. Force any company which reaches a set profit margin (say a billion dollars) to split into two competing companies with new management drawn from second tier managers whose promotion (along with some minor regulations keeping the two companies from functioning together in any capacity for a set number of years or even decades) will ensure that they will steer their company into direct competition with their former bosses.

Ok, maybe I do know which I'm more in favour of . Gee, these boards certainly make you think...

Luther wrote:
My only problem right now (besides my 401k evaporating into thin air...

Ayup.

I purchased my home 5 years ago with the hope to sell it off and move on to bigger and better, but this GD market killed that for me. Now I'm stuck in a house I don't want to live in anymore and won't be worth what I paid for it for 5-10 more years. Great.

GD GFannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Pieces of crap that they are. Idiots.

Then, with people losing out on thier IRAs, 401ks and other investments mean that the disposable hobby market will suffer the hardest. It always does.

-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

I think the idiots in congress should be paying off 50% of the bad mortages for the worst off folks then refinancing them into something that folks can actually afford. This gets the money to the banks in a manner that actually helps the little folks rather than simply filling the pockets of the rich idiots who tried to cheat the system for their own gains and got their teeth justifiably kicked in.

Never happen though...darn it.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

Oh, don't worry. Reform is coming for the housing debacle is coming. Since the gov't already took over the stupid-heads that are Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac there will be more oversight and harder, very stringent guildelines for who can get a mortgage for a home and who couldn't. Unfortunately, this is going to trickle down. Beware people, it's going to be very hard to get a mortgage, or even a credit card in the foreseable future.

Here's how dumb Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were in creating this problem. In 2006, in the state of Ohio (Cuyahoga County) if you had an income of $40,000 (no proof, but declared that you did) and wanted to buy a $190,000 home, all you had to do was put down about $5,000 (less if you paid some minor mortgage insurance fees) and have a credit score of 550 or so. What that means is you probably got an ARM loan (Adjustible Rate Mortgage) with a really good rate. You probably paid about $1200 a month in mortgage. Fast forward 2.5 years. Your ARM loan readjusted due to the economy and your monthly house payment is now about $2400 per month, and you still only make $40,000 a year (not your take home amount). Your $190,000 home is now worth about $150,000 and all you put down was $5000. You can't sell your home because nobody can get a loan anymore and you can't afford your monthly payment.

This all starts out because of the dumb guidlines that were set by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac who said you get get a $190,000 home and only make $40,000 per year with only 2.5% down on the worthless house.

GAH! {trobbin forehead veins}

-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

I believe this is one of those "Political" threads that, if I'm not mistaken, has become strictly verboten on these boards.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Isn't this economics?
-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Quote:
Since the gov't already took over the stupid-heads that are Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac...

LOL! The use of 'Stupid-Heads' over an expletive would definately earn my wife's seal of approval (dummy-head is a good alternative as well). Good one, O.

Quote:
I believe this is one of those "Political" threads that, if I'm not mistaken, has become strictly verboten on these boards.

Technically speaking, it's an economic thread. But, I'm with you: let's get politics out of our economy...

Omote wrote:
Here's how dumb Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were in creating this problem...

I can one up you. In southern CA, they were advertising home loans with NO DOCUMENTATION REQUIRED. Not even a Driver's License. And now, Illegal Immigrant foreclosures make up 20% of all foreclosures.

Thank you National Council of La Raza...

if history is any indication, times of great economic stresses are also the times when great new advancements in entertainment are made, such as film, board games, and the like, both of which had enormous booms during the depression because, unlike in calmer, smoother times, people need something to escape to, and with -- unfortunately, that might mean, in this modern age, drug and alcohol abuse skyrocket. but, i would hold onto the faith that mankind is a linear beast and cannot learn from his past. i guess i'm saying that i have no fear that the role playing game will vanish any time soon but it might take on a new form.
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the voynich manuscript is a mysterious illustrated book written in an indecipherable text. it is thought to have been written between 1450 and 1520. the author, script and language of the manuscript remain unknown.

Heh, as long as we stick to talking about economic impact on the RPG as an industry rather than veering into the politcs of it all I think we can handle the thread appropriately.

Luckily the RPG industry has already gone through it's own "bubble bursting," so in some respects the market has already deflated a good bit overall. Will the economic woes affect it further? Certainly. People worried about paying bills are less likely to throw out the same level of investment in any hobby, and RPGs are no exception. But, as voynich just stated, these times are often good for entertainment and escapism - the "golden era" of Hollywood erupted during the great depression as people sought movies as their escape.

The credit crunch, I assume, is probably less an issue for the smaller 3rd party publishers like TLG, because they don't have significant numbers of employees whose payrolls depend on credit or bridge financing by the company. This sort of thing can affect capital and maintenance, but judging from the Trolls' stories of their "fun" with box-cutters and hydraulics I suspect their not over-extended into heavy capital debt, so gaming companies are less vulnerable than, say, restaurants, farms and fixed-expense small companies or industrial manufacturers.

Truth be told, gamers will still want games. They will be drawn to the less expensive ones (good for TLG). What's happening now means I will only buy that which I can afford, meaning curiosity and the potential to buy a big $50 RPG book from a major becomes a "not for awhile or unless I get a cheeper discount online."

I do suspect Hasbro/WotC is in for a rough time with it though - as that business model demands continual purchasing of supplements and new releases, and that model is likely to be very affected by this sort of economic environment.

See - economics of RPGs. Didn't have to mention politcs at all.
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John "Sir Seskis" Wright

Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/

High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org

I don't worry about either subject. Sure we've got problems that will get corrected, but a great deal of the "buzz" is due to the media, as usual.

They will seize these issues and stuff them in your face. Coupled with the upcoming election it's gonna make me puke and thus I will refuse (as I usually do) to watch, read or listen to the media.

I'm keepin' my money in the bank and other accounts and will continue to spend and buy within my means.

Heh, the Trolls will see alot of my dough this 4th quarter for sure!

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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Rhuvein wrote:
I don't worry about either subject. Sure we've got problems that will get corrected, but a great deal of the "buzz" is due to the media, as usual.

They will seize these issues and stuff them in your face. Coupled with the upcoming election it's gonna make me puke and thus I will refuse (as I usually do) to watch, read or listen to the media.

I'm keepin' my money in the bank and other accounts and will continue to spend and buy within my means.

Heh, the Trolls will see alot of my dough this 4th quarter for sure!

My thoughts exactly!! Couldn't have said it better!
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Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!

Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
http://jimhollowayart.com/id5.html

Luther wrote:
I can one up you. In southern CA, they were advertising home loans with NO DOCUMENTATION REQUIRED. Not even a Driver's License. And now, Illegal Immigrant foreclosures make up 20% of all foreclosures.

I hear you on that one. What else do I say other than... Only in California.
-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

removed

I like cereal.

[Deleted]

Regardless, cereal is good.

-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

noted and my post removed.

It will be interesting in the months and years ahead for the United States, but I don't think it will impact the gaming industry all that much. Various publishers had already been hurting prior to the release of 4th Ed for various reasons but those who had solidified and fortified their position over the years should be able to weather this just fine. As for WOTC ... I don't think this will really affect them either. They've been doing a nice job cashing in with the release of 4th which is probably a boost to their numbers compared to 3rd which was dwindling in the last couple of years anyway. Their new strategy seems to be working thus far. Besides, if 4th ends up short lived, it could result in a 5th edition which will be completely miniatures based IMO as the books are not generating as much of a profit margin as their collectible mini line is.

Fairly smooth sailing north of the border though! But please get yourselves out of this mess, it will invariably affect the Canadian Economy in other ways...

M
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"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

I'm not worried about the Trolls. Anyone who can start a rpg company, sell all kinds of product and still have enough money to buy food is going to make it through anything.
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John Adams

Luther wrote:

Quote:
I believe in capitalism and don't think we need endless regulation (which, make no mistake, caused this mess in the first place, starting 31 years ago with the Community Reinvestment Act and compunded with the 1995 buffing of that act)

According to Business Week the Community Reinvestment Act had nothing to do with subprime crisis. see their article at: http://www.businessweek.com/investing/i ... reinv.html

Article notes a few things of interest:

"University of Michigan law professor Michael Barr testified back in February before the House Committee on Financial Services that 50% of subprime loans were made by mortgage service companies not subject to comprehensive federal supervision and another 30% were made by affiliates of banks or thrifts which are not subject to routine supervision or examinations. As former Fed Governor Ned Gramlich said in an August, 2007, speech shortly before he passed away: In the subprime market where we badly need supervision, a majority of loans are made with very little supervision. It is like a city with a murder law, but no cops on the beat.

Also this:

"Not surprisingly given the higher degree of supervision, loans made under the CRA program were made in a more responsible way than other subprime loans. CRA loans carried lower rates than other subprime loans and were less likely to end up securitized into the mortgage-backed securities that have caused so many losses, according to a recent study by the law firm Traiger & Hinckley (PDF file here).

Finally, keep in mind that the Bush administration has been weakening CRA enforcement and the laws reach since the day it took office. The CRA was at its strongest in the 1990s, under the Clinton administration, a period when subprime loans performed quite well. It was only after the Bush administration cut back on CRA enforcement that problems arose, a timing issue which should stop those blaming the law dead in their tracks. The Federal Reserve, too, did nothing but encourage the wild west of lending in recent years. It wasnt until the middle of 2007 that the Fed decided it was time to crack down on abusive pratices in the subprime lending market. "
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Sir Dachda McKinty,

Margrave and Knight of Portlandia
Castles & Crusades Society

First let me address the concerns about TLG.

When the news media informed us that our economy had completely bottomed out and that the great depression was upon us...complete with the drought causing dust bowl for the mid west, a return of the Versailles Treaty clauses forcing a bankrupt Germany to pay mountains of debt to the rest of western Europe, horrifically crippling tariff war between all nations, removal of all the safeguards including the federally insured deposit program....Mark completely freaked out. He set Little Rock on fire (you won't see this on the news of course). That crazy SOB started running around setting everything on fire, from puppy dogs to buildings. Then Davis, fearing a rush on the grocery store and the complete absence of cigarettes, hit mark with a hammer and rolled him up in a blanket and started smoking/eating him. I missed this because I was so engrossed in fixing my email account...while Rome burned and all that.

As far as I can see TLG will be fine. The gaming market is a little bit insular to economic downturns. Its sort of like Arkansas in that respect. When the stock market crashed in 29, and the economy bottomed out, unemployment jumped to over 25%. People in Arkansas responded? Really unemployment rates fell?
Seriously, I think we'll be fine. We fight for revenue every day here at TLG, its what owning a business is all about. We try not to borrow much on credit so don't use banks for much more than depositories. Had we discussed using banks to get short term loans, sure, all the time. But would rather do 10 dollar sales to get them, those we only have to pay back one or two disgruntled customers. The company is pretty diversified and I'm in the process of making it more so, so we don't depend on any one source of revenue.

As for the economy at large. There is blame to go all the way around for this, everyone, both parties have been lax, banks, credit lenders and credit institutions, and us commoners. The recession is coming and has been on the ticker for about a year now. Economy dips and then picks up, not quite getting there. But despite that, inflation has crept in largely due to fuel costs. Staples have all gone up, milk, eggs, bread etc. This price increase has caused a natural belt tightening reaction from Americans who have cut back on spending which whip lashes into manufacturing, which means job loss, which means less spending. IMHO the bail out is irrelevant concerning the coming recession (far more concerned am about tax increases on the private sector as those restrict a companies ability to grow, i know this because we let todd go in 2003 because of payroll taxes. We could pay him, just not the added burden of the tax).

The recession is upon us. Tighten up and get ready for the ride. Its going to be hard and bitter.

TLG will weather it however, we'll weather it the way we always weather crises. Hard work, sacrifice and a commitment to ever better games and gaming material.

TROLLZAH.

Thanks for Playing,

Steve

ps. Now to go join davis and smoke mark!
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The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

You look deep enough and you'll find all kinds of people guilty in this one - Republicans, Democrats, Martians, Uruk-Hai...everybody. Even people who bought houses knowing full well they were in over their heads. It's an ugly situation, but we'll pull through!
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Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!

Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
http://jimhollowayart.com/id5.html

Now THAT was a fantastic post Steve.

I only hope Mark left a few puppies un-singed in his rampage.

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John "Sir Seskis" Wright

Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/

High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org

I knew that Mark was trouble.

You can see the hidden rage in his eyes.

That man couldn't keep his cool for five seconds.
Of course I'm kidding. Mark was one of the highlights of my LGGC trip. That, and gettign to sleep with a man called Kim.
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John Adams

Coleston the Cavalier wrote:
That, and gettign to sleep with a man called Kim.

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kim@trolllord.com

Click here: http://tiny.cc/4rvo5

Yup....fewer luxuries for us Americans. (mini's and game stuff are not luxuries but necessities however!!!!)

Only thing that is bumming me out about it all is that it makes looking for a new job all that much harder. Durn it.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society