Content for future Monsters & Treasure books

JediOre · Post by **JediOre** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:08 pm

I was looking through my old AD&D books as well as the early modules from Troll Lords.

I really think it is important for the Castles & Crusades game to include as many of the old AD&D monsters that can be legally used. These monsters have a history in the game and many of them were created by the original RPGs like Gary Gygax. To drop them is to ignore this games history.

In addition, the monsters included from everything from Galal's Grave and The Fantastic Adventure through the Castle Zagyg's appendices needs to find their way into a printed tome. Just like many of the monsters introduced in the old TSR modules (like I1 and S4) found their way into either the Fiend Folio or the Monster Manual II, so should it be with Castles & Crusades.

We also need new monsters from the minds of folks like Serleran, but intermingled with these original, new works, keep the oldies from disappearing from the game. Adding these monsters into the official C&C rules allows more options for gamers and more creative tools for potential writers.

Also, with each new release, I think random encounter tables similar to those in the TSR Fiend Folio and Monster Manual II should be included and be comprehensive, covering all official beasties from all M&T releases.

That's my two cents worth.

Luther · Post by **Luther** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:28 pm

JediOre wrote:
I was looking through my old AD&D books as well as the early modules from Troll Lords.

I really think it is important for the Castles & Crusades game to include as many of the old AD&D modules that can be legally used. These monsters have a history in the game and many of them were created by the original RPGs like Gary Gygax. To drop them is to ignore this games history.

In addition, the monsters included from everything from Galal's Grave and The Fantastic Adventure through the Castle Zagyg's appendices needs to find their way into a printed tome. Just like many of the monsters introduced in the old TSR modules (like I1 and S4) found their way into either the Fiend Folio or the Monster Manual II, so should it be with Castles & Crusades.

We also need new monsters from the minds of folks like Serleran, but intermingled with these original, new works, keep the oldies from disappearing from the game. Adding these monsters into the official C&C rules allows more options for gamers and more creative tools for potential writers.

Also, with each new release, I think random encounter tables similar to those in the TSR Fiend Folio and Monster Manual II should be included and be comprehensive, covering all official beasties from all M&T releases.

That's my two cents worth.

"I'd buy that for a dollar!!!" Or $20
Seriously, I would like to see all the oldies but goodies translated as well. Just recently I ran an adventure with Jermelaine in it and that required an extra MM at the table. If I'm going to have to do that, I jsut as soon have the TLG version.

The question becomes, how many of those monsters are directly available? A hippocampus is easily taken from mythology, but what about monsters like the Githyanki (one of the best reasons to get the Fiend Folio, IMO)? I know the Beholder got the makeover treatment as the 'Prismal Eye' but how far can you go with that before some monsters become unrecognizable...?

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:57 pm

That is kickin like chicken, hoss. Hopefully they can make this happen, it's a fire idea.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:05 pm

I would love to see a mix and match of old muunsters and new ones. I know people have said over the years that they have the old MMs they don;t exactly need a new one. But I disagree because I want to see official C&C monster books!

Like that Aihrde one which should be just jim dandy.

-O
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Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:08 pm

I wouldn't mind seeing this myself. More monsters (especially the old classics) are always good. Of course I understand that certain old creatures may not be able to be used due to IP issues.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:15 pm

If TLG ever gets into their own monster books, that would be great. There are lots of interesting and new creatures in Aihrde (M&T of Aihrde), plus what has been metnioned over the years for M&T2 and Gods & Demons! That three great monster books we could have for C&C!!!

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voynich · Post by **voynich** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:17 pm

for my part, i would like to see content for new monster books contain a mixture of conversions and new material. and, when it comes to conversions, perhaps a small dose of "re-imaging" as was done in the first monsters and treasure book, so it has a distinctly castles and crusades feel, and not a "clone." i also think it would be a fine idea to go through all previously released modules and combine the monsters from there in the next monster book, making it nearly equivalent to ad&d's monster manual ii.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:32 pm

voynich wrote:
for my part, i would like to see content for new monster books contain a mixture of conversions and new material. and, when it comes to conversions, perhaps a small dose of "re-imaging" as was done in the first monsters and treasure book, so it has a distinctly castles and crusades feel, and not a "clone." i also think it would be a fine idea to go through all previously released modules and combine the monsters from there in the next monster book, making it nearly equivalent to ad&d's monster manual ii.

Ditto.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:27 am

Aladar wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing this myself. More monsters (especially the old classics) are always good. Of course I understand that certain old creatures may not be able to be used due to IP issues.

Actually I think the number is very few.

Beholder, gauth, carrion crawler, tanarri, baatezu, displacer beast, githyanki, githzerai, mind flayer, illithid, umber hulk, and yuan-ti. I also think that some devil and demon names are copyrighted, many are not.

Most on the listwould be/are missed, IMHO. But there are a ton that are free and open. I agree that some new monsters would be a welcome addition to the game, but I'd like to have some oldies, too. I know I can always convert them, but it would be nice not having to.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:59 am

Lord Dynel wrote:
I know I can always convert them, but it would be nice not having to.

The only reason I would buy any more C&C monster books is if many were completely new. Not necessarily original, but at least new takes on old monsters.

Otherwise I find using my MM's from the other editions of this game so easy to convert I couldn't justify the money to myself.

Lets not forget, the new CKG, PH, and future printings of the M&T are very unlikely to be under $20. The last printing of the PH was almost priced at $25.00. It should have been, but Steve and company decided to keep it at that price one last time.

With the way costs have skyrocketed since that decision I think we'll be lucky if TLG can keep the new printings under $30.00. If they do its probably because they do their own printing.

So my point for which I brought up the pricing is that if I am right, I would want mostly new monsters, or new interpretations, for me to justify buying the same old stuff that is so easy to convert.

So if its 20 to 30 rather faithful conversions, with a 100+ radically new interpretations and totally new creatures, then I can justify buying it in my mind. If its the other way around, no, I won't buy it.
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:48 pm

More monsters = more mayhem= more dead PCs. *evil laughter echoing out of deep deep dark halls*
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JediOre · Post by **JediOre** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:41 am

Treebore wrote:
If its the other way around, no, I won't buy it.

Treebore, I get you completly. I'm not really thinking of use old timers quite as much as I am the newer gamers. Also, as I mentioned, by getting these older monsters into an official tome allows authors to use them quickly and easily. Remember, Troll Lord will hopefully continue to produce adventure modules and the real possibility of subscribers penning small adventures in the Crusader to me screams of porting over the old monsters. Also, Joseph Goodmen has mentioned he may continue to produce C&C modules.

There are several outlets to see printed modules using the C&C rule set and it is important to make these older monsters available commercially. You bet, you and I and numerous old-schoolers have the old TSR books. We also have the old TSR modules, but that won't help Troll Lords to move forward and generate sales and interest in new product.

dutch206 · Post by **dutch206** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:41 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
Actually I think the number is very few.

Beholder, gauth, carrion crawler, tanarri, baatezu, displacer beast, githyanki, githzerai, mind flayer, illithid, umber hulk, and yuan-ti. I also think that some devil and demon names are copyrighted, many are not.

FWIW, the Rolemaster Campaign setting "Dark Space" (Written by Monte Cook, Natch) included Mind Flayers. He simply changed their name to "Cthugan" and kept right on going. It's called "Filing off the serial numbers" and game designers do it all the time.

Now, if you named them Illithids and said they worshipped a deity named Ilsensine, that would be actionable.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:15 am

dutch206 wrote:
FWIW, the Rolemaster Campaign setting "Dark Space" (Written by Monte Cook, Natch) included Mind Flayers. He simply changed their name to "Cthugan" and kept right on going. It's called "Filing off the serial numbers" and game designers do it all the time.

Now, if you named them Illithids and said they worshipped a deity named Ilsensine, that would be actionable.

Exactly...as long as you keep your product as far away from the original as possible, and still keep it resembling the original, you're most likely safe. Not saying that's a good business practice or anything.

JediOre · Post by **JediOre** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:21 pm

Hey o' mighty Troll Lords,

I am curious if we will see the monsters I outlined in my original post will at some point see their way into a C&C M&T tome.

Or to put it another way, would you guys mind outlining your views on how future volumes of the M&T books should be?

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:54 pm

I like to see a good mix of old and new monsters. New monsters are cool, but I also like to have C&C versions of the classics.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:29 pm

I really hope they get some gaps filled in. A lot of the vermin that really fleshes out dungeons and is damn near essential for 1st through 3rd levels didn't make it into M&T. I'm hoping that M&T2 fixes this.
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dachda · Post by **dachda** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:39 pm

Maliki wrote:
I like to see a good mix of old and new monsters. New monsters are cool, but I also like to have C&C versions of the classics.

I agree. I'd love to see the old ones C&Cized, with some of Serleran's and other's great new ones tossed in as well.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:06 pm

reposted here for convenience

CharlieRock wrote:
The Foliage Monster

No. Encountered:1

Size:Large

HD:5(d10)

Move:20ft.,5ft.swim

AC:15

Attacks:1Slam(2d4), see special

Special:see below,Twilight vision

Saves:P

INT:Average

Alignment:Neutral

Type:Plant

Treasure:5

XP:varies,see below

The Foliage Monster (a.k.a. Swamp Thing, Brush Beast, Tree Fiend,etc.) is the source of many campfire tales and also not a few disappearrances. Whenever a person has died lost or alone in the wooded areas of the world their spirit sometimes stays behind and animates some small patch of the woods themselves.

Though the appearance of the Foliage Monster is seemingly random they do share many similar qualities. They are not vocal, yet understand all the languages of their animator spirit. Foliage Monsters only arise on certain nights after sunset and disappear at sunrise, leaving behing only the pile of bramble that housed the angry spirit. These nights vary for each individual Foliage Monster, but will have great significance to the animating intelligence: the anniversary of a child perished due to exposure, the tresspass of intruders for a murdered druid, or even a moonless night for a weeping widow commited suicide. Foliage Monsters will never be found outside of the area where the tragedy that spawned them occured.

As they are composed of whatever flora was in the vicinity of it's rise each Foliage Monster will have varied powers and/or abilities in addition to the ones listed in it's stat block:

d6 (#of abilities)

1-3 = one additional ability

4-5 = two additional abilities

6 = three additional abilities

d10 (abilities, reroll doubles excepting physical attacks which stack)

1= Soggy breath: Can expell it's breath in a gust up to three times a night. Each duplicates the effects of the spell fog cloud. In addition any nonmagical wooden objects suffer as per warp wood where the fog cloud is centered (immediately to the front of the Foliage Monster at time of breath).

2= Log limbed: an additional attack doing 2d8 in addition to a chance to lay the target prone due to impact with this massive limb. Each person hit must make a SV(either Str or Dex ,player's choice) vs. challenge rating 2 or fall prone.

3= Well rooted: Any round in which the Foliage Monster is immobile it may entrench it's feet and cause them to sprout up to 40' away for 10' radius as per entangle. Only one entangled area may exist at one time and the Foliage Monster may resume normal movement while it is in effect.

4= Thorns: an additional slam attack as well as any target hit with two slam attacks in one round are grappled for an additional 2d4 damage.

5= Muddy mitts: a successful attack covers the target in mud. Covered victims must make a Con save vs CR 4 or be blinded for 1d4 rounds.

6= Sticks and Stones: an additional attack may be made at ranged increments of 30' for 1d8 damage from flung sticks or rocks.

7= Hollow body: The Foliage Monster will attempt to grapple any smaller foes then itself and swallow them. Any opponent losing a grapple to this beast will be swallowed and must a Con save vs. CR 5 or take 3d4 drowning damage. As long as one person is still struggling inside it, the Foliage Monster will strike as if it did not have this attack. As soon as that adventurer is dead however, it is considered "empty" and will attempt to swallow again. Any survivng swallowees can emerge freely from a dead Foliage Monster ,otherwise they must make a successful grapple attack causing no damage to the beast.

8= Fearsome gaze: a fear gaze attack CR5

9= Bite attack: 2d6 additional attack

10= Power over the night: Darkness 100' radius 1/night

Base XP is determined as 100 plus 50 per additional power. Example: A Foliage Monster with three additional powers would be 250 XP.

A defeated Foliage Monster will arise again the next night it normally would had it disappeared as normal at sunrise unless a Cleric or Druid performs a funerary ritual for the lost soul animating it.

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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:16 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
Giwaku

No. Encountered: 1

Size:Med

HD:6(d6)

Move:30ft.,Fly30ft.

AC: 17

Attacks: Kick 1d6

Special: Minor Image 3/day see description, invisibility 1/day, influence 5/day

Saves: Mental

Int: High

Alignment: Neutral

Type: Fey

Treasure: see decription

XP: ???

The Giwaku is a tall (6') humanoid with elven features. Their skin is a blue hue while their hair ranges from purple to white. Giwaku have two insect-like antenae of about 6" to 1' long on the crown of their heads. They prefer to hover in mid-air but are as fast as normal humanoids of their size when forced to the ground.

Giwaku are not native to the material plane. They are summoned by high level magic-users to serve as guardians. They may be found guarding a location, person, or item.

Giwaku favor their invisible forms and try to maintain it as long as possible. Their main tactic is to use their native ability to cast a minor limage spell effect. This effect creates 1d4+1 visible copies of themselves. These copies will attack whomever threatens that which the Giwaku is guarding. This is not considered an attack by the Giwaku and does not effect their invisibility. They may make use of this ability three times a day though once visible they must remain so until the next day.

Giwaku are highly agile and attack mainly through unarmed kick attacks. Some have been known to use weapons, especially ones favored by dextrous users such as nunchaku or rapiers. Their dex modifier is +3 though this is not one of their prime stats. Their unarmed attacks are not considered pummeling and follow the same restrictions of a monk characters in every other respect.

Anyone affected by the Giwaku's influence ability will percieve any of the minor image copies as the actual creature (and thus regard that illusion as an ally) if the Giwaku is invisible. Whenever visible the Giwaku will be considered the casting source for all effects of the influence ability. Using the influence ability is not considered a direct attack regarding the Giwaku's state of invisibility.

Giwaku cannot be lured from what they guard under any circumstances and will not follow adventurers if they move too far from it. CKs are encouraged to develop a giwaku's treasure type on their own bearing in mind the Giwaku's main service to it's master. Giwaku are never found as wandering monsters.

Edit: I should like some help in figuring out this monsters XP value. I am unsure of how this works from the book. Thank you ,in advance.

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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:24 pm

And one for the holidays:

CharlieRock wrote:
Dire Turkey

No. Encountered: 3-6

Size: Large

HD: 6d8

Move: 60'

AC: 16

Attacks: Talons 2d6,Beak 2d4

Special: Regeneration

Saves:P

Int: AnimAL

Alignment : Neutral

Type: Delicious with gravy

Treasure: White meat, dark meat

After this beast is defeated, take special care to ensure it is dead. If it is higher then -10 hp it will regenerate in 1d6 days and hunt down the adventurer that laid it low. Remember,oh brave souls who face such beasts, leftovers will get you.

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:21 pm

99% of the time -- anything posted to a forum is not going to make it into an official product, unless that which is posted is a preview. The reasons are many, but of primary concern is: why pay for what is being freely given away?

So, yes, its good to discuss what you want to see in a new M&T (hell, there have been at least 4 times I've asked for peoples' opinions on what they wanted to see,) but if you truly want it to contain something you wrote, I'd suggest not posting it -- send it to me or Steve. I don't guarantee it'll go in, but if I like it, there's a much higher chance.
Oh, and Julian -- that concern about the "dungeon vermin" was on my mind when writing things up. I probably forgot some things...

Next M&T book I'll just make a huge list and then start writing.
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