What Does Old School Gaming Mean To You?

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:35 pm

angelius wrote:
Have you guys read the C&C review on RPG.net?

This sums it up for me:
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11008.phtml

Yep, great review. Akrasia is quite an advocate and supporter of C&C over on RPGnet and DF. He's quite knowledgeable and keeps lots of people honest in their comments at RPGnet. I think he's also responsible for converting many folks.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:47 pm

That is one detailed review! I would never write something that detailed. Very good! Its been read over 10,000 times! Thats encouraging.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:23 pm

BeZurKur wrote:
DangerDwarf, what made you so jaded since your days of classic gaming?

It's hard to pinpoint exactly when I got so jaded, or even the absolute cause, probably a number of things.

At first it began in 95-96 I believe, when the 2nd edition "options" books came out.

I was a bit disgruntled at the direction my beloved game was taking. It wasn't a serious issue though as the options books were easily ignored and none of the people I played with used them anyways. This was a bit of foreshadow though perhaps.

Then, in the late 90's, Greyhawk got a second wind and some more books were put out. My excitement grew. Added to that there were the Fast PLay modules, Wrath of the Minotaur and Eye of thew Wyvern. They had that "Old School" feel to me that I was missing from the products put out in the preceeding few years.

Gaming was looking good.

I bought into all the hype of the coming 3e and was completely excited about Greyhawk being the default setting. FINALLY! I was going to get some continuued Greyhawk goodness.

I pre-ordered the 3e core books, the Gazateer and the Living Greyhawk Gazateer. Woohooo!

Then....I got the core books. This was not my game.

That is not to say it wasn't a good system, because I honestly do see its worth. However, to me it was not AD&D, this was some other game stealing the name.

So the jaded outlook began.

I trudged along with it at first, I mean...this was D&D right? I was just being reluctant to move on.

The LGG was good, no complaints there but I still disliked 3e. Then came the clincher, Greyhawk was only the "default setting" by lip-service. They didn't have any real interest in continuing my beloved setting.

I had completely lost interest in the new edition when I came across a nifty old school looking module called "Crucible of Freya". Wow! This was good stuff!

NG is the sole reason I maintained an interest in 3e, their products were awesome and had the feel I had been missing. But, even so, you can only cover up the problem for so long and my disinterest and jaded attitude towards d20 continued to grow.

I spent alot of time playing other systems since 3e's release. I of course played 3e, hell it was hard to find a group if you didn't. But I never considered it to be D&D, just a pretender. We had some good games and good times with the newest edition, but it always lacked the I dunno...I guess "feel" of previous editions.

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:37 pm

DangerDwarf -

I am exactly like you when it comes to what became disappointment over the way Greyhawk was handled. I was absolutely thrilled when I heard it was to be the "default" setting.... picked up the LGG, and saw the pantheon as default in the core books.

Then.... nothing. I don't mind that they gave RPGA the license to create Living Greyhawk, but where were my full maps (thanks later to Dungeon and Erik Mona)? What about modules and setting material? Alas, WotC dumped it just as fast as they dumped the "Back to the Dungeon" slogan. I honestly don't have the problem that so many do with all the Greyhawk wars and From the Ashes changes -- it is certainly not what EGG intended, but it has it's own possibilities and I ran a two-year campaign I built myself called "Shadows of the Suel Imperium." - and even running 3.e I gm'd it so it took the entire two years to get to around level 18 (still faster than I like but acceptable).

For me it was a sad whoosh of air coming out of the tires as far as WotC supporting a setting I loved. Instead, it was right back to FR and then EBERRON, EBERRON, EBERON!!! - or whatever.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:49 pm

My and D. Dwarf's experience is very close. Except I kept playing 2E for over a year after 3E came out.

Then I only switched because everyone else wanted to. The only reason we stayed with 2E for that year is because my players listened to the "we are having fun as it is, why switch?" Then my campaign concluded.

There is a lot to like about 3E. Unfortunately what I don't like far outweighed what I do like.

fortunately C&C has fixed all that for me to the point where I have to compare my happiness/fun to my memories of 1E.

angelius · Post by **angelius** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:55 pm

I too was in the same boat.

When 3rd Ed. came out I was hey okay lets check it out. Frankly, I dont mind the game that much, its very finicky and rule-ish. But its okay. The problem was that it didnt have any of the flavour that AD&D had from the early 90's. Even the art totally gave it away!

I mean where's Larry Elmore? And all the cool "stylisms" that made AD&D the great game?

And when they started to release, so called "source books" which was really books of prestige classes and more ways to make your character more powerful... instead of actually being source books... i knew it was the end for me.

I reluctantly played and DMed. But C&C was the light at the end of the tunnel.
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seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:02 pm

I will give one stylistic thing I liked - despite hating the dungeon-punkish art, I did like the faux-notepaper background used on the 3.0 pages.

Had there been less rules written on those pages, and less devotion to "equalizing" characters (except of course for the crapped-on ranger and bard) I might have liked it more. I still played it and had a lot of fun - but house-ruling to tweak downward took me weeks and many sessions and never did get to where I wanted to go in three years. C&C has all of what I'm looking for now.... whether others consider it "Old" school or not doesn't really bother me.... it fits "my" school.

John 8)
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Jeffery St. Clair · Post by **Jeffery St. Clair** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:20 pm

angelius wrote:
Finally! someone that remembers her. Of course I must have been 6 yrs old at the time. But it's funny how I still have a crush on her. hahaha....

Of course I remember her - our group actually went on a campaign to avenge her death. It took a lot of characters, but when Bargle was finally dead, and Aleena the Cleric was avenged, there was much celebration - there's nostalgia for you....
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angelius · Post by **angelius** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:32 pm

I'd pay to see a real life version of Aleena.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:36 pm

angelius wrote:
I'd pay to see a real life version of Aleena.

There was one in a strip club in Ft. Lauderdale back in 1989. Asking her if she were used as an art model scored me some awesome brownie points!

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:50 pm

angelius wrote:
I'd pay to see a real life version of Aleena.

Talk to Elmore. Maybe the model is still around?
Ill ask him next time I see him.
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angelius · Post by **angelius** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:39 pm

Love Elmore, I have a litograph of the chick that my fiance calls the ass sketch... heh
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:07 am

What does Old School gaming mean . . . and within a few posts we are on asses and strippers! LOL

Why is it I walked out of my booth at Gencon on Saturday and saw two dudes in boxer shorts and bath towels flirting with a chain mail clad Ashley who was laying on the floor . . . the message boards are about strippers and asses . . .

there's something magical in the air . . .

What does it mean to be a troll.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:09 am

Toga! Toga! Toga!

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:11 am

You can take the guys outta Animal House but you can never take Animal House outta the guys....
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Combat_Kyle · Post by **Combat_Kyle** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:28 am

To quote Ron White: "Once you seen one pair of breats, you want to see the rest of them."
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:38 am

Bewbiez R teh RAH!

BeZurKur · Post by **BeZurKur** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:36 am

Troll Lord wrote:
What does Old School gaming mean . . . and within a few posts we are on asses and strippers! LOL

Hey, it took till page 3 before being derailed to a bare ass! I'd say that's pretty good for these boards.
But back on track...

Thanks, DangerDwarf. I (and others) can see where you're coming from. I never played 2ed, but judging by the books that came out for it, I recall thinking it was getting out of control. And I couldn't agree with you more on:

DangerDwarf wrote:
I was a bit disgruntled at the direction my beloved game was taking. It wasn't a serious issue though as the options books were easily ignored and none of the people I played with used them anyways. This was a bit of foreshadow though perhaps.

3ed absolutely was the direction that AD&D was going/is, if not most of RPG gaming.

Angelius brings up the art in the 3ed vs 2ed, and like Rhuveins first art pic, I agree that the art says a lot about the game. In 2ed, the characters were still unbound and free of rules: they were still being larger than life. Flipping through my 3ed Player's Handbook, the art is reinforcing the rules, whether it be through a skill, feat, or situational bonus.

There's been some talk about miniatures. I agree that is a big change, although for the most part, we can probably sum that into rules light vs rules intensive. The miniatures or counters become a necessary tool for applying the heavier rules.

Last, for now, John makes a good point that this is no longer a search for defining old-school, but a comparison of styles. I quicky made up a comparison of classic vs non-classic (I hate the name but don't know what else to call it) that I think could shed some light. Now, the question is: how do I add a table to the post? I know it has something to do with the code button, but I'm not sure what. Any ideas?

meepo · Post by **meepo** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:16 am

Worth another 1,000 words or so.

angelius · Post by **angelius** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:41 pm

Inspired by this thread, I re-read the red box set again.

You definitely get a different "feel" when you read some of the older stuff.

Maybe its the sense that the game rules itself is really "open"?

Or some of the newer player might say "incomplete"?

That Gygax, threw some rules together. The rules give a sense that they are "raw".

C&C has that same feeling and it bothers a lot of people that have recently turned to this game from 3.5. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that maybe that "old skool" feeling is a sense of exploration, not only in the world but also the rules.

The analogy to this would be listening to the blues on an old record player vs. listening to the blues on a DVD.
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Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:06 pm

Improv was a heavy part of my early gaming years. But why was this one so great?

It was a warm summer night, fireflies flickering outisde. Two heroes went into a dungeon to delve its depths. Since everything was random, I didn't even know what was behind the door. Everything was luck of the dice and wonder.

When we got to the tenth level of the dungeon, it was time to roll for the final encounter. The dice indicated a lich. Quickly searching for a name, I decided on Zivelyn. The battle was fierce and ferocious, but the heroes triumphed (even if they failed to destroy his phylactery, thus ensuring a return of the lich at a later date).

And the first part of that RPGnet review of C&C is priceless!

BeZurKur wrote:
I do have some specific questions:

Jyrdan Fairblade, why was the random generator the most memorable dungeon?

Emryys · Post by **Emryys** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:03 pm

Old School is about role-playing and thus rules that fade into the background, and allow this to happen.

Ths Seige engine mechanic is great for this in that the CK can determine the appropriate attribute on the fly with modifiers based on the roleplaying of the player... then roll and get on with the game/story
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BeZurKur · Post by **BeZurKur** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:29 am

Jyrdan Fairblade, that does seem be a quality of classic design. I think for two reasons: the ease and simplicity allows for everyone to be involved with the creative process but also the episodic quality mentioned earlier. That is a classic dungeon crawl element.

Thanks everyone. This thread has helped me wrap my head around the concept. I'm working on assimilating the info and presenting it -- probably as its own thread. Please look for it this weekend. Hopefully it will cover all the bases. I really appreciate the comments and if anyone thinks of something not already mentioned, throw it in. Otherwise, back to our regular scheduled program of ass and strippers.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:54 am

BeZurKur wrote:
, back to our regular scheduled program of ass and strippers.

*snorts* Where do you think the "20 Dollar" thing came from in my credits in the C&C books?
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