Roleplaying games going away?!
Ah yes. Waldenbooks. That was definately one of a very few places back then to buy games. We also counted on the odd trip to ST. Louis to buy from Games, Crafts, and Hobbies. What a store! D&D, Fasa, MERP, Avalon Hill, etc. Those were the days. Aladar, I also played a few Avalon Hill's back in the day. A geometry teacher who's probably mid-late 50's or early 60's now, was a huge fan. He brought them to class back in the 80's and throughout the rest of his career. I didn't care for some of the complexity level, but some of the games were rather appealing. My favorite was one of the mid-range, simpler games, Circus Maximus. The more chariots on the track the better. Two man games weren't even a consideration. If you had the full 8 players, it was horse meat all over the track, courtesy of those +2, or was it +3 spiked wheels?
Graduated in 1983. Started playing in 1979-80. I still remember buying the Fiend Folio at the 1981 Gen Con when it was brand-spanking new! With all the new modules coming out and the old ones still fresh - dems was da times!!
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Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!
Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
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Lord Dynel
- Maukling
- Posts: 5843
- Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:00 am
It seems like the "golden age" for many of us wasn't so much a certain year or years but rather a certain age.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.
I graduated in '91 - started school a year early.
I started gaming in late grade school and the only place I could get gaming material was at Walden Books, primarily at Westmoreland Mall. Used to beg my mom to take me to Greengate Mall because the Waldenbooks there would stock different things.
In my Jr./Sr. High gaming era my game store mecca was Games Unlimited in Squirrel Hill (Pittsburgh). You could get things like Twilight 2000 there!
All that said, my gaming group ranges in age from 18 through mid-30s. It's a pretty even distribution too.
I started gaming in late grade school and the only place I could get gaming material was at Walden Books, primarily at Westmoreland Mall. Used to beg my mom to take me to Greengate Mall because the Waldenbooks there would stock different things.
In my Jr./Sr. High gaming era my game store mecca was Games Unlimited in Squirrel Hill (Pittsburgh). You could get things like Twilight 2000 there!
All that said, my gaming group ranges in age from 18 through mid-30s. It's a pretty even distribution too.
Lord Dynel wrote:
It seems like the "golden age" for many of us wasn't so much a certain year or years but rather a certain age.
Yeah, those wonderful years before job and family responsibilities had to be addressed (with their own unique rewards of course, but very different rewards).
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CharlieRock
- Lore Drake
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Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
I guess that means we have to get our kids reading, imagining and RPing instead of watching the brain destroyer, playing video games and watching the bad movies coming out these days.
Sir Osis of Liver
"Gamers of the world, procreate!"
Whenever I ask a young person what books they like to read they just give me this "wtf" look.
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CKDad
- Master of the Kobold Raiders
- Posts: 1205
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- Location: Somewhere in Maryland
You have to be careful not to confuse the number of products produced in the early part of this decade with the number of buyers. I seem to recall sales figures quoted by someone - I think it was Steve Jackson - showing the overall decline of the RPG market over time.
(The figures below I'm pulling from memories of past discussions in other places. I am quite likely off in exact numbers, but I suspect I'm correct in terms of orders of magnitude.)
Let's put some of these numbers in perspective: I believe a really good run for an RPG product from anyone other than WOTC is around 5000 copies, and that's for something you're sure will sell well. Core rulebooks may be higher. SJG and White Wolf may also do better than this for at least core books... but I if there's a product produced by anyone other than WOTC, SJG or WW that tops 10K copies, I'd be incredibly surprised.
I don't have the figures in front of me, but I believe across all editions of Classic Traveller (pre1986) you're looking at over 50K copies. Original AD&D was higher yet. These were arguably the two most popular RPGs of the late 70s and early-mid 80s, just from sheer number sold.
So that's one piece - fewer people playing tabletop games. Why?
While tabletop games have informed and influenced mass market pop culture, they aren't part of that culture. Their sales numbers are dwarfed by video game sales, and not even rounding errors when you talk about mega-sellers like Halo or WoW. Those simply get more eyeballs.
And with the explosions of both PCs and game consoles in the home, kids are exposed to them much earlier than most of us ever encountered tabletop RPGs.
Time constraints are also a factor. As players take on work, family and household commitments, they have less time to play - and it becomes harder and harder to schedule times for group play. From anecdotal evidence, I believe that's driven at least some people from tabletop games to the computer or console.
I'm sure there's tons of other contributing factors. CCGs stole a HUGE number of players from both RPGs and wargames in the 90s, while at the same time making a small mint for LGS owners (and for hobby store owners, as hobby stores were the usual place one found games in many areas for years). They did expand the overall pool of people one could class as gamers, but very few who came in as CCG players made the transition to traditional RPGs or wargames.
Paper and publishing costs have also skyrocketed, and as print runs shrink in size, the marginal costs actually increase. This makes products more expensive, which takes RPG products out of the "impulse buy" category for many people. (Steve talks about this a bit in the podcast which was posted last week.) And while buying over the 'Net works when you already know about gaming and what you want, it doesn't work well for bringing new people into the fold.
(BTW, if you think things are bad for RPGs? Talk to a wargamer. That's a hobby that has shrunk hugely. Panzerblitz and the original Squad Leader both sold over 100K copies; I doubt any board wargame published today breaks the 5K mark.)
It's not all gloom and doom, however. I keep seeing late thirty- and fortysomething folks like myself who've hit the point in their lives where things have stabilized, the kids have grown a bit, and they can afford to carve out a little game time and get back in. Not like we did in high school / the service / college, maybe, but we can find 4-6 hours a week or every other week. And we miss the personal interaction of a tabletop game, and the socialization it brings.
Some, like Tree & myself, are getting our kids into tabletops.
Anyway - RPGs will be around, but it's pretty clear the peak times are long past.
_________________
"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."
(The figures below I'm pulling from memories of past discussions in other places. I am quite likely off in exact numbers, but I suspect I'm correct in terms of orders of magnitude.)
Let's put some of these numbers in perspective: I believe a really good run for an RPG product from anyone other than WOTC is around 5000 copies, and that's for something you're sure will sell well. Core rulebooks may be higher. SJG and White Wolf may also do better than this for at least core books... but I if there's a product produced by anyone other than WOTC, SJG or WW that tops 10K copies, I'd be incredibly surprised.
I don't have the figures in front of me, but I believe across all editions of Classic Traveller (pre1986) you're looking at over 50K copies. Original AD&D was higher yet. These were arguably the two most popular RPGs of the late 70s and early-mid 80s, just from sheer number sold.
So that's one piece - fewer people playing tabletop games. Why?
While tabletop games have informed and influenced mass market pop culture, they aren't part of that culture. Their sales numbers are dwarfed by video game sales, and not even rounding errors when you talk about mega-sellers like Halo or WoW. Those simply get more eyeballs.
And with the explosions of both PCs and game consoles in the home, kids are exposed to them much earlier than most of us ever encountered tabletop RPGs.
Time constraints are also a factor. As players take on work, family and household commitments, they have less time to play - and it becomes harder and harder to schedule times for group play. From anecdotal evidence, I believe that's driven at least some people from tabletop games to the computer or console.
I'm sure there's tons of other contributing factors. CCGs stole a HUGE number of players from both RPGs and wargames in the 90s, while at the same time making a small mint for LGS owners (and for hobby store owners, as hobby stores were the usual place one found games in many areas for years). They did expand the overall pool of people one could class as gamers, but very few who came in as CCG players made the transition to traditional RPGs or wargames.
Paper and publishing costs have also skyrocketed, and as print runs shrink in size, the marginal costs actually increase. This makes products more expensive, which takes RPG products out of the "impulse buy" category for many people. (Steve talks about this a bit in the podcast which was posted last week.) And while buying over the 'Net works when you already know about gaming and what you want, it doesn't work well for bringing new people into the fold.
(BTW, if you think things are bad for RPGs? Talk to a wargamer. That's a hobby that has shrunk hugely. Panzerblitz and the original Squad Leader both sold over 100K copies; I doubt any board wargame published today breaks the 5K mark.)
It's not all gloom and doom, however. I keep seeing late thirty- and fortysomething folks like myself who've hit the point in their lives where things have stabilized, the kids have grown a bit, and they can afford to carve out a little game time and get back in. Not like we did in high school / the service / college, maybe, but we can find 4-6 hours a week or every other week. And we miss the personal interaction of a tabletop game, and the socialization it brings.
Some, like Tree & myself, are getting our kids into tabletops.
Anyway - RPGs will be around, but it's pretty clear the peak times are long past.
_________________
"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."
"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."
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Lord Dynel
- Maukling
- Posts: 5843
- Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:00 am
Very insightful post, CKDad! And I agree with it, too.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.
Count me in as one of those 80's-90's players (Class of '88). Began playing OD&D in 1982 and switched to AD&D in early 1983. I touched on a few other RPGs by TSR with Star Frontiers probably being the second to AD&D. Boot Hill, Top Secret and Indiana Jones round out the top 5 for me and my friends. The golden years for me were late middle school, early high school, and then again during college. I got my AD&D books mainly from Waldenbook as a member of the Otherworld's Book Club (still have the card There were no game stores around me when I got into AD&D. In the 90's I found my books in hobby stores and began finding pure game stores.
I've heard recently that game stores seem to be about 50/50 with 4E. Some are selling it well, while others can hardly move it, with all having been big 3E sellers. I don't know quite what to make of that. Apparently in stores where 4E sells poorly, Paizo's Pathfinder is really popular. Maybe that has something to do with it.
I know that for a fact, online discounters really hit the game stores hard in lowered RPG sales. This was being talked about as an issue even before 3E released (when FLGS was coined). But game stores stepped up to the plate and offered nicer looking stores and better customer service to keep their RPG customers. It seems ultimately it has only prolonged the inevitable.
I think it's a really good thing for the future of RPGs for gamers to play them with their children. Keep it up!
BTW, anyone remember mall Video Arcades? Ah, quarter pumping madness! I spent so many hours in arcades. It was a fun place to hang and socialize as kids as well as play games. That's one industry that got killed by the advancement of home video consoles.
I've heard recently that game stores seem to be about 50/50 with 4E. Some are selling it well, while others can hardly move it, with all having been big 3E sellers. I don't know quite what to make of that. Apparently in stores where 4E sells poorly, Paizo's Pathfinder is really popular. Maybe that has something to do with it.
I know that for a fact, online discounters really hit the game stores hard in lowered RPG sales. This was being talked about as an issue even before 3E released (when FLGS was coined). But game stores stepped up to the plate and offered nicer looking stores and better customer service to keep their RPG customers. It seems ultimately it has only prolonged the inevitable.
I think it's a really good thing for the future of RPGs for gamers to play them with their children. Keep it up!
BTW, anyone remember mall Video Arcades? Ah, quarter pumping madness! I spent so many hours in arcades. It was a fun place to hang and socialize as kids as well as play games. That's one industry that got killed by the advancement of home video consoles.
CKDad wrote:
It's not all gloom and doom, however. I keep seeing late thirty- and fortysomething folks like myself who've hit the point in their lives where things have stabilized, the kids have grown a bit, and they can afford to carve out a little game time and get back in. Not like we did in high school / the service / college, maybe, but we can find 4-6 hours a week or every other week. And we miss the personal interaction of a tabletop game, and the socialization it brings.
Some, like Tree & myself, are getting our kids into tabletops.
This describes my situation. I graduated from HS back in 1974, and didn't get exposed to D&D until 1981 in grad school. I ran a weekly game for my kids and their neighborhood friends from 2001-2007. They are all grown up now and out of the house, but there are now 8 19- & 20-year-olds running around with solid RPG experience.
And now that the nest is empty, I am able to play twice a week!
It is sad that so few of the current generation play, but as long as I have my books, I hope to be able to find some players in the retirement home...
Joining the conversation late, here. What brick-and-mortar retailer can compete with the mega-discounts offered by Amazon and other online giants? It's simple economics.
The real loss here is that a game store often lets people sit in on a live session of a game to see if they like it before they buy stuff. Online retailers can't offer that.
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Please. I have dice that are older than you are.
The real loss here is that a game store often lets people sit in on a live session of a game to see if they like it before they buy stuff. Online retailers can't offer that.
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Please. I have dice that are older than you are.
Oh, please--I have dice older than you are.
Glad somebody else here still has their old Waldenbooks Otherworlds Book Club card. Mine is tucked away somewhere. As I recall it entitled you to 10 or perhaps as high as a 25 percent discount on Sci-fi and fantasy books, and rpg's. The kicker was(correct me if I'm wrong) is that the card was free. That doesn't happen anymore. Also, you got a monthly or bi-monthly publication called Xignals. The magazine featured interviews with authors such as Piers Anthony, etc., listings for upcoming releases, etc. Bought many a Star Trek and Doctor Who novel in those days. hehe On the topic of best selling rpg's. No doubt that Dungeons and Dragons was tops back in the day. I think I read somewhere that FASA's Star Trek was a distant number 2 seller for awhile(probably early-mid 80's). Wouldn't surprise me. Those Pocket Star Trek novels used to sell incredibly well in the 80's.
When I ran my first game store, I noticed a lot of gamers who would browse my vast RPG selection to see what they wanted to order online. And a good number of RPGers who played in my free gaming area bought books online and/or used .pdf books. A sad fact. That said, RPGers who play in game stores usually make up a small fraction of RPG customers. Most RPGers like playing in their own homes instead of a public playing area.dutch206 wrote:
Joining the conversation late, here. What brick-and-mortar retailer can compete with the mega-discounts offered by Amazon and other online giants? It's simple economics.
The real loss here is that a game store often lets people sit in on a live session of a game to see if they like it before they buy stuff. Online retailers can't offer that.
That's probably a big reason why the CCGs and miniatures games sold and continue to sell more in stores than RPGs. They are built to be played in public settings. RPGs are more of a private game.
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Grendel T. Troll
- Ungern
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:00 am
I guess it's all on how you perceive things in the gaming world:
I play with people whose ages range from 22 to 42 (me being at the far end). We play desktop RPG's but without tech, it would be impossible for us.
I live in So Cal; most of my players live in Georgia. Doing a game conventionally is in impossibility.
The Internet is a godsend. Through Skype (for voice-chatting) and IRC channels (for dice-rolling) we game fine. If it weren't for the modern age, we couldn't play very well - at least not in real time.
Dristram: I understand your situation. This happens all over, I agree. RPG's have been, and always SHOULD be, a small market for us Elites
I guess what I am saying is this: don't blame society, the kids of today, or a game company not producing a game that you like. If you want to play, then play. You can find people - even the younger generations - that are willing to do it. We are the teachers; the students are out there, if you know where to look.
Just some mumbling from a newbie to this forum.........
I play with people whose ages range from 22 to 42 (me being at the far end). We play desktop RPG's but without tech, it would be impossible for us.
I live in So Cal; most of my players live in Georgia. Doing a game conventionally is in impossibility.
The Internet is a godsend. Through Skype (for voice-chatting) and IRC channels (for dice-rolling) we game fine. If it weren't for the modern age, we couldn't play very well - at least not in real time.
Dristram: I understand your situation. This happens all over, I agree. RPG's have been, and always SHOULD be, a small market for us Elites
I guess what I am saying is this: don't blame society, the kids of today, or a game company not producing a game that you like. If you want to play, then play. You can find people - even the younger generations - that are willing to do it. We are the teachers; the students are out there, if you know where to look.
Just some mumbling from a newbie to this forum.........
Registered Linux Minion #299419
Pathfinder RPG Advocate and C&C Acolyte
C&C Society: Sir Grendel of the Troll Lands
http://www.cncsociety.org
Famous Last Words: "Can I have a succubus for a familiar?"
Pathfinder RPG Advocate and C&C Acolyte
C&C Society: Sir Grendel of the Troll Lands
http://www.cncsociety.org
Famous Last Words: "Can I have a succubus for a familiar?"
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Lord Dynel
- Maukling
- Posts: 5843
- Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:00 am
Grendel T. Troll wrote:
I guess it's all on how you perceive things in the gaming world:
I play with people whose ages range from 22 to 42 (me being at the far end). We play desktop RPG's but without tech, it would be impossible for us.
I live in So Cal; most of my players live in Georgia. Doing a game conventionally is in impossibility.
The Internet is a godsend. Through Skype (for voice-chatting) and IRC channels (for dice-rolling) we game fine. If it weren't for the modern age, we couldn't play very well - at least not in real time.
Dristram: I understand your situation. This happens all over, I agree. RPG's have been, and always SHOULD be, a small market for us Elites
I guess what I am saying is this: don't blame society, the kids of today, or a game company not producing a game that you like. If you want to play, then play. You can find people - even the younger generations - that are willing to do it. We are the teachers; the students are out there, if you know where to look.
Just some mumbling from a newbie to this forum.........
Welcome to the Crusade, Grendel!
I agree with you, to a point, but I think the pool in which to draw students is shrinking. It seems that kids and/or people of this era aren't gravitating to rpgs - but they are towards entertainment outlets that are in the forefront of the gaming industry - CCGs, MMOs, and next-gen console games. Tabletop RPGs have only been in that forefront position a few times, but they have survived past times not being in the limelight (and in times of considerable unfavor). My only hope is that it continues to survive (I feel that it will).
But I do agree that the internet, for internet gaming, is a great way utilize the service to further our gaming needs. I personally prefer a live table game, but would play in an internet game if given no other choice. I've found, like you and your student philosophy, Grendel, that gamers are out there to be had - it just takes knowing where to look.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.
Eisenmann wrote:
I graduated in '91 - started school a year early.
I started gaming in late grade school and the only place I could get gaming material was at Walden Books, primarily at Westmoreland Mall. Used to beg my mom to take me to Greengate Mall because the Waldenbooks there would stock different things.
In my Jr./Sr. High gaming era my game store mecca was Games Unlimited in Squirrel Hill (Pittsburgh). You could get things like Twilight 2000 there!
All that said, my gaming group ranges in age from 18 through mid-30s. It's a pretty even distribution too.
Holy crap, dude, you're from Pittsburgh?? Nice!
Do you still live here? If you don't you'll be disheartened to know that Games Unlimited has gone in the toilet over the last 15 years or so. They've almost nothing for RPGs anymore, save a few ancient dusty shelves of badly beaten and long oop (but generally not very collectible) stuff.
Phantom of the Attic is where it's at in the Oakland/Squirrel Hill neighborhood, now, and Game Masters on Babcock Blvd. serves the North Hills very nicely.
The Grey Elf wrote:
Holy crap, dude, you're from Pittsburgh?? Nice!
Do you still live here? If you don't you'll be disheartened to know that Games Unlimited has gone in the toilet over the last 15 years or so. They've almost nothing for RPGs anymore, save a few ancient dusty shelves of badly beaten and long oop (but generally not very collectible) stuff.
Phantom of the Attic is where it's at in the Oakland/Squirrel Hill neighborhood, now, and Game Masters on Babcock Blvd. serves the North Hills very nicely.
I grew up in Ligonier and now live more out toward Johnstown. Sad to hear about Games Unlimited. It used to be great. Heck, that's where I picked up Mekton II because there was nothing like it at Walden Books. A shame. Phantom of the Attic is definitely a good shop. They've got a lot of great stuff. When I was in college I went in to be awed. LOL Now, once a year or so I try to get down there just to look at the very least. I'll be sure to check out Game Masters. I love checking out new gaming stores. Well, new to me at least.
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Grendel T. Troll
- Ungern
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:00 am
Lord Dynel wrote:
Welcome to the Crusade, Grendel!
I agree with you, to a point, but I think the pool in which to draw students is shrinking. It seems that kids and/or people of this era aren't gravitating to rpgs - but they are towards entertainment outlets that are in the forefront of the gaming industry - CCGs, MMOs, and next-gen console games. Tabletop RPGs have only been in that forefront position a few times, but they have survived past times not being in the limelight (and in times of considerable unfavor). My only hope is that it continues to survive (I feel that it will).
But I do agree that the internet, for internet gaming, is a great way utilize the service to further our gaming needs. I personally prefer a live table game, but would play in an internet game if given no other choice. I've found, like you and your student philosophy, Grendel, that gamers are out there to be had - it just takes knowing where to look.
Have you heard of the site:
http://nearbygamers.com
If you haven't, it might be a resource for finding players. Not too many have set up where I am (Handle:GrendelTTroll on the site) that were interested in my game choices, but others might have better luck....
_________________
Registered Linux Minion #299419
Pathfinder RPG Advocate and C&C Acolyte
C&C Society: Sir Grendel of the Troll Lands
www.cncsociety.org
Famous Last Words: "Can I have a succubus for a familiar?"
Registered Linux Minion #299419
Pathfinder RPG Advocate and C&C Acolyte
C&C Society: Sir Grendel of the Troll Lands
http://www.cncsociety.org
Famous Last Words: "Can I have a succubus for a familiar?"
Pathfinder RPG Advocate and C&C Acolyte
C&C Society: Sir Grendel of the Troll Lands
http://www.cncsociety.org
Famous Last Words: "Can I have a succubus for a familiar?"
That's cool! I joined. I had a similar idea when I created NorCal Gamers but decided to focus it on a geographic area. I hope it's a trend!Grendel T. Troll wrote:
Have you heard of the site:
http://nearbygamers.com
If you haven't, it might be a resource for finding players. Not too many have set up where I am (Handle:GrendelTTroll on the site) that were interested in my game choices, but others might have better luck....