Troll Lord Games

This thread is part curiousity and part nostalgia. I was wondering about this and thought I would get you guys' opinions on it. I was geard up to play an assassin in the last game I ever was going to play for 1st Edition AD&D, but the game fell through. So, I was wondering what your experiences with assassins have been. How have they played? How effective were they? How fun were they? What were your overall thoughts on the class?

I've never seen one in play, and I've seen a lot...at least I think I have. I've seen a 1st Edition bard in play, and that's saying something!
Seriously, I'd lke to hear any anecdotes on assassins you all may have share.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

I've only played 1 assassin character in AD&D, a good ol' half-orc assassin.

He sucked.

Royally.

Though, to be fair it was through no fault of the class itself. he was a chronic victim of Murphy's Law. Worst assassin ever.

In 2nd Edition, I've seen a memorable assassin in play (al la the Scarlet Brotherhood sourcebook variety). Interesting character that the player had heaps of fun playing.

In C&C, the assassin has been a fairly staple character in many of our games. The one that stands out most was the one from our Midnight mini-campaign. Cool character concept and mechanically the class plays well.

I've never allowed assassins as PCs in my games, there just really isn't any place for them IMO, at least the type of scenarios I run. We had one guy trying to play when I started my C&C campaign...but he quit after three sessions having to dodge around outside of the main town, which was under governance by a LG theocracy...

I don't let evil characters in a non-evil campaign for that matter either. Evil...played as actually evil is too disruptive to the group because of self interest and achieving their wants at the expense of anyone in their way...LE is about the only one that has a chance to function, but even their methods are going to be....questionable.

something I was challenged on...once. So I played a NE mage and a CE cavalier in the two games the group had going.

The mage ended up bartering with Hel for an extra spell slot per day in exchange for his worship of her. (Hey...he's in it for the power and she could've had his life anyhow...so what was in it for him?) And then killed the party and an entire inn full of witnesses later on when the cleric took a magic item as loot that he wanted. Never mind that the cleric was his lover of convenience and he killed her while they were au natural.

The cavalier ended up the chief interrogator for an army at 1st level. I actually made one of the other players run to the bathroom where they were sick after describing a "chat session" my character was having with some peasants we had been ordered to track down. He later sold the rest of the group out to advance his own position, power, and wealth in a spectacular frame up that literally proved they were working for the good guys....even if they weren't.

They stopped playing evil characters after that for some reason...
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

I have had no assassins in any of my games to speak of. Soon, I'll be playing in a C&C Greyhawk City game that is bound to have them in it. We'll see how it goes then.

-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Omote wrote:
Soon, I'll be playing in a C&C Greyhawk City game that is bound to have them in it.

I think it's required to have them in that.

Never had a problem with the class. In fact, my highest level character is an assassin/thief psionic combination. (26th level).

As for alignment. Well, we can have that debate all day, but I've no problem with people playing the class in my game, and I don't require the class to be evil.

People always seem to assume that evil has to be 1) obvious and 2) stupid. The best sort of assassin class are the ones you wouldn't suspect. A dashing fop who's all charms and smiles. Or one who seems like a simple healer of gentle disposition.

The class has DISGUISE after all, they don't have to be captain obvious with their profession by walking around in dark cloaks and ninja suits.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

gideon_thorne wrote:
I don't require the class to be evil.

That's something I don't require either. The SB assassin in my 2nd Edition game was LN. The Assassin in my C&C Midnight game was actually NG.

There are many possible reasons on why a character could be a professional killer without being evil.

gideon_thorne wrote:
People always seem to assume that evil has to be 1) obvious and 2) stupid. The best sort of assassin class are the ones you wouldn't suspect. A dashing fop who's all charms and smiles. Or one who seems like a simple healer of gentle disposition.

The class has DISGUISE after all, they don't have to be captain obvious with their profession by walking around in dark cloaks and ninja suits.

Agree with that completely. well except the ninja suit part. Ninja suits are comfortable and fun.

I never said I required the assassin to be evil. Simply that it had no place in the games I run.
The player who was running the assassin was N...and he was the one skirting the paladin led street patrols, particularly after robbing a few merchants in the bazaar. Which he did simply because he felt like being a dumbass while the rest of the group was discussing news with the town crier in the square.

Unfortunately I find that players like to use N and CN as "evil light" alignments all too often, hence the two-bits on such.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

So, just to be clear, Go0gleplex, you didn't require the assassin to begin play evil, nor the cavalier good? You know, IAW their class descriptions in UA?

Nope. The only restriction I used on the assassin is they cannot be good aligned. Paladins are the only other class I force an alignment restriction on...

Other than my standard "no evil PCs" rule.

The cavalier was played in 1992...and the whole party was evil. At that time there were no alignment restrictions in place on the class either, which came out in Dragon Mag. 80-ish around 1982-ish originally...it also had the distinction of being the first class that allowed improvements in attributes.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

The first thing I did when we started playing C&C was to ban the assassian class for PCs. I never seen them fitting into my campaigns as a PC class, and knew that if one was played in my group somehow it would turn out bad.
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Never throw rocks at a man with a Vorpal Sword!

*chuckles* Considering the holy order origin of the profession, I could make a case that a PC could play this class as Lawful Good.
The assassin, the Paladin of the Pragmatic.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

My only fear with respect to C&C assassins is that a good player can easily take up the whole game and be a one-man army, depending on the game.

Great sonversation so far, guys! Interesting viewpoints, too!

As far as alignment goes, I agree not only with allowing a bit of latitude with the assassin alignment, but also with evil not being obvious. One of my favorite characters was a NE elf rogue in a 3.5 game I played. Granted, I feel NE is the easiest evil alignment to play, but he wasn't overtly nasty. He was a greedy and selfish sonofabitch, but he was able to keep his true motives under the surface
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

I normally play Paladins but in one game (a more renaissance Italy setting than the normal D&D world), I did play a LN assassin, and had a blast. He was a completely honorable killer for hire. No torture, or undo suffering for the target and no innocent read children or someone that didnt in some way disserve to die- but someone that was abusive, corrupt, or a cheat, and if the price was right, a poison dagger found them or a beggar in the alley that they ignored had more than lice up his cloak.

The best was being hired to kill a cheating wife, who, before I killed her, proved that he husband was 1 abusive, and 2 cheating both the local lord and his trading partners, and 3 had a mistress of his own. The wife died but was given the antidote to the poison I did sign a contract to kill her, it didnt say she had to stay dead-. Then the merchant that hired me ended up 1 accidentally falling from his hoarse into a stream, 2 signing a confession to keep from drowning, 3 deposited in front of the lords house of justice the broken leg from the fall ensured that he couldnt run- with the confession tied around his neck. Oh so much fun

Quote:
People always seem to assume that evil has to be 1) obvious and 2) stupid. The best sort of assassin class are the ones you wouldn't suspect. A dashing fop who's all charms and smiles. Or one who seems like a simple healer of gentle disposition.

The class has DISGUISE after all, they don't have to be captain obvious with their profession by walking around in dark cloaks and ninja suits.

&

Quote:
*chuckles* Considering the holy order origin of the profession, I could make a case that a PC could play this class as Lawful Good.

The assassin, the Paladin of the Pragmatic.

Gideon, I completely agree there! Evil people that are truly dangerous are not easy to spot and stupid evil people are too easy to spot to be a real danger.

Also, one of my favorite looks for an assassin is from Elizabeth a holy monk is sent to kill the heretic queen. He has the blessing from the pope and is on a divinely inspired mission, to sow the seeds of rebellion and if possible kill the lawful ruler of a country. Great seen when the queen is alone walking down a hallway and sees something cut to assassin crossing himself and reaching for a dagger- then someone else inters the hall and the assassin cuts to the side to exit stage right
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Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
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I allowed assassins in my C&C game last summer with the proviso they could not be evil and should be viewed as more of a sniper. One player opted for an assassin and I thought it worked out all right. It took awhile to feel out how all of the class abilities were supposed to work in a dungeon crawl.

My very first 1e AD&D character was an elven assassin named Scythonarak. A slightly broken use of the assassination table allowed him to land the killing blow on Orcus. It was awesome.

Haven't seen an assassin PC since then, though. Not sure why, either.

Interestingly enough, the new Dragon article available today is about Assassins. Haven't finished reading it yet but looks alright.

I never liked the 1st edition assassin class. Back in high school, the DM little brother (who was about 11-12 , the olders being 16-18)would always create a halfling assassin (the only race that wasn't allowed btb I believe. ). At some point he would try to assasinate some other character and fail. After we had killed his third or fourth assassin, he cryed to mommy. We got nagged at for picking on him.

Since then I have been very prejudice against the class. Even to go so far as disallowing it altogether.

However C&C has made me a better person, and although I haven't had a player roll one yet it seems like pretty good class

I had a problem with the assassin in AD&D 1st edition, but I played strictly by the rules for the assassin and hat upset the player who decided the class was effectively worthless. I did not agree.
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Serl's Corner

As we go on with our first official C&C campaign (most players already were veteran dungeoners), the Assassin plays out quite well (also the character is actually Bard/Assassin).

As the CK (homebrew setting included), i have NPCs and cultures react in different ways to the thing.
Storywise

First and foremost, Assassin as a class is more of a style and skill set for the character (she is not a contract killer in any ways), as her home culture actually values stealth and cunning, and prefers a clean assassination or poisoning to messy violence and warfare as a whole (think 1001 Nights and Dune). So in her homeland, also she doesn't display her skills publicly, she enjoys actual respect and consideration for this kind of knowledge.

(And yes, this southern empire is mostly Lawful Evil, if you need to know, but with style)

Now she is abroad, in the more "classical fantasy" lands of this world (theology and culture more Good aligned). And we're talking middle ages inspiration here; so, as she is sometimes regarded with a bit of suspicion or a shiver when it comes to her "dark" skills, she is also respected for them there. People tend to be happy to leave it to her when it comes to creep around enemy's position or take out this or that with discretion. Her companions sometimes shiver a bit when she coldly uses her methods, but this kind of thing is aknowledged for in time of needs, and no wise ruler would despise the strategic use of this. As she is neither bloodthirsty nor gratuitous in her killings, well... so be it !

None of her companions would use the same ways, but even for the more honorable fighters of the group, if the enemy didn't see her coming, it's his failure they consider.
Ruleswise

Considering alignment, the only thing i told the player was she couldn't have a Good aligned character (actually, "Generous" till we use a tweaked alignment thingy).

So she went for Lawful Neutral (again, actually "Greatness/Perenity", but it acts out roughly the same)

Not being Good is the only restriction i would put on assassins, because for whatever cause they fight, the meek and methodical thinking needed to plot and execute a clean and swift life-taking requires a mindset that cannot be bent all towards kindness. Now i could not require one to be mandatory Evil to do so either, especially not in a fantasy world inspired by historical periods where murder could be acceptable in some forms (in Roman culture there even were situations in life where murder was actually recommended, for example).

Now technically, the class plays out quite well for my player, probably because she has the cunning to handle it, also. Even as a mutli-classed Bard, she avoids direct combat when she can (HP and armor still are not her best feature), makes good use of her poisons (which i don't hand out easily... She really feels the price of each dose, and acts accordingly), and retreats when she has to... (which cost me already one nasty fight against an Evil Druid; she took him out in one round, and made the enemy's tactics a mess, but her maneuvering was as nice to play out as the actual fight, and the other players cheered and enjoyed the show, too)

Plus, the Case Target ability is DEADLY in her hands...

So i guess in the right hands, the Assassin class is as great as any other, and my player now has earned herself an aura of style and mystery, which justs adds to the game flavor as much as the howdy and savage fighting the Barbarin delivered, among other things.

And now again, my apologies, each time i go on posting, i intend to be quick and end up writing novels. Sorry folks !!

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People, i'm a German living in France, so please be forgiving about my English...

Buttmonkey wrote:
I allowed assassins in my C&C game last summer with the proviso they could not be evil and should be viewed as more of a sniper. One player opted for an assassin and I thought it worked out all right. It took awhile to feel out how all of the class abilities were supposed to work in a dungeon crawl.

Yeah, that was me. Sorry I had to bug out, but the whole life situation after my layoff and then accident got too friggin' convoluted.

I invisioned the character as an Infiltrator, sort of like a fantsy special forces character not an assassin in the strictest sense. He was a mutli-class Assassin/Illusionist to help him sneak into places and obtain info as well as to dispose of gaurds, sabotage the enemy and other such roles.

So an Assassin isn't necessarily just for playing cold-blooded killers...
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IMHO, AFAIK, YMMV.

James Bond=Assassin. When they want to play such an assassin I am fine with it.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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I played a paladin in an old AD&D game from before who ended up ruling his own island kingdom after he retired. He regularly used assassins and theives as part of his military forces for the simple reason that his enemies had them as well. He used them in an espionage style way.

Treebore wrote:
James Bond=Assassin. When they want to play such an assassin I am fine with it.

I've got a multiclassed assassin running in my campaign right now. As the characters are members of the king's inner circle, they get the jobs that are too sensitive to be farmed out to some idiot bureaucrat who might tell the wrong people something important. Needless to say, the assassin isn't his primary role in the campaign, but he works it into the behind-the-scenes machinations of his persona. Interesting concept, consistent in some ways with the basic concept of the Bond character.

Interesting views. I don't think I would have too much problem running an assassin. I don't think I would require him be evil, but I think I would probably restrict an assassin to non-good. I just don't think I could find proper justification for a good assassin. Neutral, at best, I believe.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Luther wrote:
Yeah, that was me. Sorry I had to bug out, but the whole life situation after my layoff and then accident got too friggin' convoluted.

I invisioned the character as an Infiltrator, sort of like a fantsy special forces character not an assassin in the strictest sense. He was a mutli-class Assassin/Illusionist to help him sneak into places and obtain info as well as to dispose of gaurds, sabotage the enemy and other such roles.

So an Assassin isn't necessarily just for playing cold-blooded killers...

This is a prime example of thinking outside the box and not being welded to an archetype too literally.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley