Be-Sieged by Dilemma

yell0w_lantern · Post by **yell0w_lantern** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:30 pm

I'm looking at smashing together one of my beloved Sci-Fi/Post Apocalyptic Games with the Siege Engine because 1) it'll be easier to get my C&C group to understand it and 2) it's just more elegant and open-ended for skills at stuff.

I can't say which system specifically b/c of certain reasons but I don't think I need to anyway.

It's going to be giant robot anime w/ some interludes of a post-apocalyptic setting that has lots of magic and technology.

I'm going to use BESM D20 classes and some classes converted from the other system.

My dilemma is this: use the traditional 6 D&D/OGL attributes and primes OR use additional attributes with primary/secondary/tertiary Challenge Bases (12/15/18). I can see Pros and Cons to each one. Any thoughts?

Str

Dex

Con

Int

Wis

Cha

additional attributes:
Magic: base energy for spell casting, replaces Int for Arcane Magic ST
Psionics: base energy for psychics, used for saving throw
Luck: would take over save for death attack, other luck based stuff
Speed (base movement in feet = Spd X 3)

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:33 pm

I'd say StarSiege.

yell0w_lantern · Post by **yell0w_lantern** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:41 pm

I have the quick start and I've looked it over but it does not fit my vision. I will be using some form of the above.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:44 pm

Do you want things to be "yes" or "no"? If you want a little bit of "maybe" then the tertiary method of 12/15/18 is the way to go -- a little good at some things, very good at others, and meh at the rest.
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yell0w_lantern · Post by **yell0w_lantern** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:51 pm

Basically, I want to get a sample of reactions so 'yes', 'no' or 'maybe' with some rationale. I'll appreciate any thoughts. Star Siege was a good thought but one I had already decided against and I probably should have mentioned that outright. Again, still appreciated.

The setting is fairly cinematic so the primary secondary tertiary split might lend itself better to the style of play I have in mind.

I have a tendency to tweak everything and I'm afraid that I may get too complicated.

I like the idea of having magic and psionic talent separate from Int and Wis. I like the idea of luck and speed being random for each character. I'm not as wild about primary/secondary/tertiary but I think it fits the style better

Having 6 attributes and Prime/Nonprime is simpler and more familiar to my players. It takes up less room on the sheets. I think it's also more ambiguous at times. I also keep thinking about the idea of a tech specialist and a wizard both having Intelligence as their required Prime and it doesn't sound right to me.

cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:07 pm

yell0w_lantern wrote:
Basically, I want to get a sample of reactions so 'yes', 'no' or 'maybe' with some rationale. I'll appreciate any thoughts. Star Siege was a good thought but one I had already decided against and I probably should have mentioned that outright. Again, still appreciated.

The setting is fairly cinematic so the primary secondary tertiary split might lend itself better to the style of play I have in mind.

I have a tendency to tweak everything and I'm afraid that I may get too complicated.

I like the idea of having magic and psionic talent separate from Int and Wis. I like the idea of luck and speed being random for each character. I'm not as wild about primary/secondary/tertiary but I think it fits the style better

Having 6 attributes and Prime/Nonprime is simpler and more familiar to my players. It takes up less room on the sheets. I think it's also more ambiguous at times. I also keep thinking about the idea of a tech specialist and a wizard both having Intelligence as their required Prime and it doesn't sound right to me.

Hate to bring it up again, but StarSIEGE really does all this work for you. The quickstart rules don't do the full system justice.

It's got a very basic "skill system" that lets your magic user/psionic be different from the techie. It's got rules for Mutations for post apoc type stuff. It's got rules for building your own equipment (read: mecha) as well as alien species, psionic powers, and other such stuff.

The only thing it does differently is separates out the Primes from the Attributes and puts them into skill bundles, which makes more sense in the long run. You can even dump the "specialties" into Professions to speed up play (i.e. you only add your Professional Level to rolls that your profession applies to).

I only say this because I really did a lot of this work for you already in StarSIEGE.
Moreover, there are toggles to let you tailor how the game runs in StarSIEGE to give more options.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:29 pm

Though I do like Star Siege and some of the things it offers, depending on where yell0w_lantern wants to go with character generation my be a stumbling block. And depending on what exactly he might want to port from BESM and other sources (if he's looking at mechanics) they may be harder to adapt (or rather convert) to Star Siege.

I agree with cheeplives that the Quickstart doesn't do the full rules justice but even if Star Siege has all the tools you need to put this stuff together (to your vision), it also might mean more work. Can't say without giving some serious examination of what that vision is and the mechanics you wish to integrate.

All that said, I think I would stick with the familiar here. Classic 6 attributes and tweak slightly if you need to. Stick with the prime/non-prime mechanic that you already know. However, add in things like a Luck or karma pool -- really whatever works. Borrow from Star Siege if there is something you prefer from that than C&C. You might want to take a look at the Wound / Stress tracks and so on.

If you stick with what you and your players know as a base, they will likely be a lot more willing to give your setup a try.

M
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yell0w_lantern · Post by **yell0w_lantern** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:40 pm

I'm pulling most of the BESM D20 powers in. I've nearly eliminated specific skills (combat skills remain) in favor of player defined talents, and a few odd class abilities.

mordrene · Post by **mordrene** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:49 pm

yell0w_lantern wrote:
I'm looking at smashing together one of my beloved Sci-Fi/Post Apocalyptic Games with the Siege Engine because 1) it'll be easier to get my C&C group to understand it and 2) it's just more elegant and open-ended for skills at stuff.

I can't say which system specifically b/c of certain reasons but I don't think I need to anyway.

It's going to be giant robot anime w/ some interludes of a post-apocalyptic setting that has lots of magic and technology.

I'm going to use BESM D20 classes and some classes converted from the other system.

My dilemma is this: use the traditional 6 D&D/OGL attributes and primes OR use additional attributes with primary/secondary/tertiary Challenge Bases (12/15/18). I can see Pros and Cons to each one. Any thoughts?

Str

Dex

Con

Int

Wis

Cha

additional attributes:
Magic: base energy for spell casting, replaces Int for Arcane Magic ST
Psionics: base energy for psychics, used for saving throw
Luck: would take over save for death attack, other luck based stuff
Speed (base movement in feet = Spd X 3)

I would go with thw additional attributes and have your additional attributes derived from your core 6 stats. for example have magic an average of int and con or str, have psi be the ave of int or wis and cha, luck be teh ave of dex and wis and speed dex and con. or whatever you think. Also have each class have an extra prime for the additional attributes or make them base 15 and certain classes can add their level to the additional ones.

Having said this, you should seriously look at star siege. seriously. If you need help converting things to star siege, i , as well as others on this board, will help.

yell0w_lantern · Post by **yell0w_lantern** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:01 pm

Well, I looked up some more stuff of Star Siege and based on what I found it still doesn't fit what I have in mind.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:45 pm

yell0w_lantern wrote:
I'm pulling most of the BESM D20 powers in. I've nearly eliminated specific skills (combat skills remain) in favor of player defined talents, and a few odd class abilities.

Are you keeping to a 'classed-based' system for character generation then?

M
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yell0w_lantern · Post by **yell0w_lantern** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:51 pm

Yes. I'm sticking with classes and levels.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:52 pm

yell0w_lantern wrote:
Well, I looked up some more stuff of Star Siege and based on what I found it still doesn't fit what I have in mind.

I don't get that. Star SIEGE is a toolbox, one from which you choose which tools you want to use and how you want to use them.

So you can use it to build Macross, or Traveller, or Babylon 5, or Firefly, or Psi World, or whatever you wish. You can be strongly SIEGE engine, strongly skill based characters, strongly level based characters, pretty much whatever you want built to your exact tastes.

So I really don't get how you could think that unless you haven't read the full rules set.

To rephrase your quoted statement, "Star SIEGE is made to create exactly what you have in mind, no matter what it is."
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:02 pm

Treebore wrote:
I don't get that. Star SIEGE is a toolbox, one from which you choose which tools you want to use and how you want to use them.

So you can use it to build Macross, or Traveller, or Babylon 5, or Firefly, or Psi World, or whatever you wish. You can be strongly SIEGE engine, strongly skill based characters, strongly level based characters, pretty much whatever you want built to your exact tastes.

So I really don't get how you could think that unless you haven't read the full rules set.

To rephrase your quoted statement, "Star SIEGE is made to create exactly what you have in mind, no matter what it is."

But I actually have to disagree there, the focus on Star Siege and the impression it gives is towards a more 'skill-based' system of character generation than a 'class-based' one. I admit that is very easy to change but as presented, Star Siege can involve a lot more work than a GM might intend. Star Siege should be a game and not a toolbox because if people start to see it uniquely as a toolbox, they may be less apt to play it as a game.

If I wanted to play Star Wars, I could use Star Siege but I'd probably end up using WEG's d6 system instead. That doesn't mean that Star Wars can't be done in Star Siege. If he is using d20 based material that has a couple more things in common with C&C than StarSiege, he might also prefer to adapt C&C... or something completely different for that matter.

That said, I think I need to actually pull out my StarSiege and run a campaign with it. Aside from the initial playtests I did for the game and going through the set in detail to write a review (for the upcoming Domesday issue), I haven't really touched it.

M
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:19 pm

moriarty777 wrote:
But I actually have to disagree there, the focus on Star Siege and the impression it gives is towards a more 'skill-based' system of character generation than a 'class-based' one. I admit that is very easy to change but as presented, Star Siege can involve a lot more work than a GM might intend. Star Siege should be a game and not a toolbox because if people start to see it uniquely as a toolbox, they may be less apt to play it as a game.

If I wanted to play Star Wars, I could use Star Siege but I'd probably end up using WEG's d6 system instead. That doesn't mean that Star Wars can't be done in Star Siege. If he is using d20 based material that has a couple more things in common with C&C than StarSiege, he might also prefer to adapt C&C... or something completely different for that matter.

That said, I think I need to actually pull out my StarSiege and run a campaign with it. Aside from the initial playtests I did for the game and going through the set in detail to write a review (for the upcoming Domesday issue), I haven't really touched it.

M

Naw, all you need from the D6 system, or SW D20 for that matter is a list of powers you want available for the PC's. Skills to, if you want a defined skill system. From there you can build your perfect Jedi or Sith using StarSIEGE's character building rules.
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yell0w_lantern · Post by **yell0w_lantern** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:02 pm

Buy it for me and I'll consider it - maybe.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:30 am

Ditto on the StarSIEGE. If you don't go that route, maybe look into D20 Future.
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mordrene · Post by **mordrene** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:29 pm

do you have the deconstructin rules that were floating around here? They are great for creating your own classes. If you dont have them one of can send it along, just ask.

yell0w_lantern · Post by **yell0w_lantern** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:51 pm

No, I don't have the deconstruction rules. I'd feel bad having them free when I know they're coming out in the CKG... eventually.

So Star Siege aside, what do people think?

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:55 pm

Quote:
If you dont have them one of can send it along, just ask.

No, I have asked that they are not shared in any way or format, so please don't. And, they aren't "rules" anyway -- one person's attempt to understand how the classes were built in the first place, which happened to be pretyt accurate, as I hear it, but far from perfect or official.

In retrospect, they should not have been shared in the first place, but oh well.
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mordrene · Post by **mordrene** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:59 pm

serleran wrote:
No, I have asked that they are not shared in any way or format, so please don't. And, they aren't "rules" anyway -- one person's attempt to understand how the classes were built in the first place, which happened to be pretyt accurate, as I hear it, but far from perfect or official.

In retrospect, they should not have been shared in the first place, but oh well.

This is the first I have heard of this, sorry. I had assumed these were just house rules. just trying to help a fellow gamer out.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:40 pm

mordrene wrote:
This is the first I have heard of this, sorry. I had assumed these were just house rules. just trying to help a fellow gamer out.

I kind of got the impression that's exactly what they were. *shrug*
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:44 pm

Yes, they were, and then submitted to the CKG for possible inclusion -- therefore, they are now covered by a Non-Disclosure Agreement. And, so is anyone who has them.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:52 pm

serleran wrote:
And, so is anyone who has them.

Please understand that I am only debating hypothetically. In other words, the following is just for s***s and giggles.
IANAL, but I was under the impression that the person who signed the NDA is restricted, but if sensitive information was given out precedeing a signed NDA, and especially to someone who didn't sign a NDA, then they are not bound to it.

In other words, if you gave me X and then signed a NDA saying that you were not allowed to discuss or share X, I'm under the impression that a) I can share X all I want because I'm not bound by a NDA and b) neither one of us are in trouble because the sharing happened before the NDA was signed.
Again, I'm just debating the "what if's" of the scenario.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:53 pm

yell0w_lantern wrote:
No, I don't have the deconstruction rules. I'd feel bad having them free when I know they're coming out in the CKG... eventually.

So Star Siege aside, what do people think?

Well, if using OGL / d20 material as a base, I'd recommend checking out True20. It might have a BUNCH of stuff ready for the picking. It's distilled down to three classes... it uses a wound track I believe... and has a bunch of support for for tech stuff as well.

I haven't seen the revised version of True20 yet but I've got the pocket edition of True20 and liked it very much and can see it as an ideal toolkit to build up from... supplement with BESM with little problems... and throw in Siege to eliminate the multiple skill lists.

If you think that's not a bad idea, what I'd do additionally is create classes using one of these three templates as a base. (Thus you can have a class with class based skills and so on).

M
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:57 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
Please understand that I am only debating hypothetically. In other words, the following is just for s***s and giggles.

:: rolls up newspaper ... THWACK! ::

Bad Lord Dynel... BAD !!

M
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:58 pm

Oww!!

Well, I wouldn't share them, even if I did have them...

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:03 pm

Quote:
IANAL, but I was under the impression that the person who signed the NDA is restricted, but if sensitive information was given out precedeing a signed NDA, and especially to someone who didn't sign a NDA, then they are not bound to it.

In other words, if you gave me X and then signed a NDA saying that you were not allowed to discuss or share X, I'm under the impression that a) I can share X all I want because I'm not bound by a NDA and b) neither one of us are in trouble because the sharing happened before the NDA was signed.

Maybe -- but, it was also stated, at the time of the request for cessation that the NDA was retroactively applied to those who currently held it [the deconstruction,] and therefore, simply possessing it [exhibit A for the defense] was enough to hold one to the terms of the NDA. So, nyah nyah. Grandfathered.

Otherwise, its a matter of respecting the wishes of the author -- either you can, or you can't.

So, touch and reverse.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:50 pm

serleran wrote:
Maybe -- but, it was also stated, at the time of the request for cessation that the NDA was retroactively applied to those who currently held it [the deconstruction,] and therefore, simply possessing it [exhibit A for the defense] was enough to hold one to the terms of the NDA. So, nyah nyah. Grandfathered.

Otherwise, its a matter of respecting the wishes of the author -- either you can, or you can't.

So, touch and reverse.

Well of course, its a matter of respect for the author - I figured that didn't have to even be addressed, since I stated that this was just for fun/hypothetical.

Now, the NDA may apply retroactively, but I would think that only for those that signed it. I don't think you could, legally, come up to me and say, "Hey Lord Dynel, I signed a NDA that says the 'deconstruction' rules/guidelines cannot be talked about, so...uh...even though I gave them to you, don't talk about them, 'k?" Again, I don;t even play a lawyer on TV, but I can't see how that would be enforcable,

Now, respect is another issue altogether, hoss. Of course I would respect your wishes, but only because I wanted to, not because I was legally bound. Of course, I could be talking out of my butt, too...

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:00 pm

Quote:
Now, the NDA may apply retroactively, but I would think that only for those that signed it.

Actually, registering to this forum, or even viewing it, could be considered obligatory acceptance of terms and conditions -- therefore, simply being here might mean one is implying they agree to, or not do, certain things.

So, if it was decided a public post, as it was when made, was to be removed and qualified as "content to not be disclosed" then anyone who had seen it, or copied it, would then be required to not disseminate it as it originated here, and was then removed.

But, I am not a lawyer either. And, of course, "you" does not mean "you." It means "anyone." Not that it really matters, because the "issue" is not one of enforcement...

I just don't want people giving those "rules" away, as a courtesy, both to myself and to the Trolls -- so, even if you hate me, you might consider the reason for the asking, which really have nothing to do with a NDA.
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Be-Sieged by Dilemma

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