Troll Lord Games

Hey there,

I'm working with some others and we are in the very early planning stages of throwing together a mini-con up here in can-a-duh, and well, like any good business person, you jump in with both feet BEFORE you have a plan
SO,

for those of you that have run, been at, planned or organized cons

- what are some of the gotcha's that you have found in the past

- challenges, surprises and opportunities

- was it worth it in the end?

- any advice for a 1st time con organizer

for those of you who have attended cons

- what do you like most about cons

- like least

- what would turn a con from a meh event to a must attend event

- biggest annoyances at these events

and for everyone else

thoughts, comments, inspirations, ideas or musings would be greatly appreciated.

cheers,

J.

jman5000 wrote:
- any advice for a 1st time con organizer

Escape while you can!

If you can't, invest heavily in tranquillisers, you'll need em.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Don't underestimate the power of a good dealer's room. Even if it's a dozen or two people - stores, individual sellers, or the like - having some people that sells games are a good thing. And a little bit of variety, too, would be nice.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

As a rare con attendee, I would like to have one that made finding, or starting, a game easier. I know there are dockets and time slots and all, but that information can be difficult to find or use. Even at GenCon, when I went, I played in but one game, and that was only because Fiffer was nice enough to do a quick demo.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

That's because GenCon has a complicated process to finding a game and signing up or it. For scheduled games, you could simply jot down on a website or on the flyer for all attendees, the name of the game and the time it is going to be played. In this instance you can say that all listed games must be signed up for in order to participate. Sign-up can begin an hour (or two) prior to the start of the game. Whomever is on the list can play. Simple and effective.

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

If you can make it known what games are starting and when, sure -- some sort of announcement or the like, so that everyone will be able to hear it. That, for me, was a problem at LGGC when I went -- a lot of noise in the room made hearing anything anyone else was doing very difficult.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

The thing that makes a convention work, or not, is this. Variety. It can't be just a game con, or a writers con, or a fixed narrow focus con any more. You need to hit a wide swath of fandom.

Which means you need to appeal to writers, filkers, gamers, trekkers, star wars fans, serenity folk (ect ect), costumers, artists and all manner of folks.

Which sometimes means you need a 'name' to bring in people.

A DJ couldn't hurt either.

And all of this boils down to money, you need some to get it rolling. You also need a competent staff who can have things delegated to them who are willing to make it work. Sometimes you can find people willing to donate things for a con suite (free munchies, although one can include a tip jar).

More or less, your going to have to become very competent at herding cats, cause that's more or less what your going to be doing when your dealing with volunteers, and various and assorted guests. Probably why you'll never catch me anywhere near a committee involving convention or volunteer organisation ever again.

Preregistrations are important. With these you can find out, roughly, what numbers you can expect, and whether your convention is going to pay for itself in the first year. Not all of them do.

Conventions generally have several features in common.

A dealers room

An art show (but it would be better, in my opinion, to put the art show IN the dealers room. But I've been having this fight with conventions for years, which is why I now set up in the dealers room)

A game room

A con suite with munchies in it

A 'green room' for con committee and guests to go hide in.

and various lecture panel rooms for people to talk about...stuff.

More later as I think on it. I've been in and around conventions for a long long time.

_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Peter gives some good advice for some things to have. However I think there is more than a few tips to make a good convention.

First and foremost, you need to have a base of people you know will show up to the convention. It can be fans of a big 'name', not Peter Bradley (joking), a game everyone wants to play, or even two to three featured games. This player base will comprise most of your pre-registrations.

Past the player base, variety is the other key to attracting more people to your convention. I would try to appeal to the other niche groups around your area. Give the people what they want and they will come is very true.

There are a couple misconceptions people may have with a first time convention.

1) They almost never break even. Expect to pay at least half of your expenses from your own pocket (or whoever's pocket is paying for things).

2) Peter is correct that running a convention is very much like herding cats. You need to make sure everyone is on the same page. No matter how much you 'communicate' someone will feel they weren't informed about something.

3) When all the planning is done, you have finished the easy part. The execution is 10x more difficult and 10x more important. You need to be johnny on the spot to resolve disputes (there will be at least 2 dozen), make sure the vendors, GMs, hotel, and volunteers get what they need, and make sure the convention goers are having fun.

4) You will need to be a hard ass. There will be times when either it will take too long to resolve a dispute amicably or there is no middle ground. Make a decision and stick to it. After the convention, you can review the decisions made and figure out what 'should have happened.'

Running a convention is really a pain. I have no idea why anyone still does it anymore. Oh yea, the smiles on everyone's faces when people are fat, happy, and gaming.

OT: I really love StarSeige I purchased from Peter last week!

Diversify...don't limit yourself to just game dealers. We had a stained glass artist, tee shirt shop guy, and a few other various things at our con and they did pretty well.

It was definitely worth it, even if I did collapse from exhaustion the first year. Learned to delegate a bit more of things the second year (even if I did have to force it on a couple of the committee ) Would have done it a third year but most of our committee went off to college.

We held our con at the county fair grounds at about a third of the price for 4 times the space offered by the convention centers in town. Besides letting us keep costs down reducing the gate fees, it also let us set up a laser tag arena, camping/RV on-site, live chess, and someone ran a star trek combat game using the 1/72 or so scale models.

Was a surprise that the chess and laser tag were as big a draw as the more conventional games.
_________________
The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

Hunin wrote:
It can be fans of a big 'name', not Peter Bradley (joking)

*chuckles* I don't get invited to conventions as a guest cause of my big name. Its cause I'm one of the least troublesome guests any convention has. I just find me a quiet corner and draw. Or I'm good at stirring up conversations on Art panels.

I'm a very easy going sort of chap...99% of the time.
It is true that, as far as guests go, one is going to see a range from the unobtrusive like me to the pretentious. But the names do draw people. And that's the main thing when thinking bodies in the hall.

Quote:
OT: I really love StarSeige I purchased from Peter last week!

Hi there!
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

good feedback so far.

so, do people still go to cons because there are 'name' people there? That surprises me. I'd assumed that this was no longer the case

is the "4 hour gaming block" still the way to go? meaning, all games start and stop at the same time? Has anyone seen other methods of scheduling and do they work?

if the con organizers could bring online a reservation system that would notify you via sms to your cell phone when there are games with available space, or that a game is ready to start - does that seem like a good innovation?

vendors that go to a con, do they normally pay for their space, or do you donate space to them to "draw" the vendors to the show?

Has anyone ever worked with sponsors before? how does sponsorship work with a con?

hehehe a million questions... at the end, I'm interested in hearing from the con'goers more - to find out what they like and dislike about cons...

Cheers,

J

Quote:
so, do people still go to cons because there are 'name' people there? That surprises me. I'd assumed that this was no longer the case

In large part.

Quote:
is the "4 hour gaming block" still the way to go? meaning, all games start and stop at the same time? Has anyone seen other methods of scheduling and do they work?

Fixed times work, but one ought to have table space available for folks who just want to run a pick up game.

Quote:
if the con organizers could bring online a reservation system that would notify you via sms to your cell phone when there are games with available space, or that a game is ready to start - does that seem like a good innovation?

I expect its something that could work very well with a service like Twitter.

Quote:
vendors that go to a con, do they normally pay for their space, or do you donate space to them to "draw" the vendors to the show?

Depends. I've seen fee's anywhere from $75 a table to $300 a table depending on the size of the convention. But I've also traded 'swag' for a table or booth space.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

but in general, the expectation the vendor is expected to pay something for the privileged of being at your con ... The price for a captive audience as it were?

cheers,

J

jman5000 wrote:
but in general, the expectation the vendor is expected to pay something for the privileged of being at your con ... The price for a captive audience as it were?

cheers,

J

Sure. But a vendor is there to make money, so we don't actually mind paying a... reasonable... fee. The definition of reasonable varying.
In point of fact, that's one of the most effective ways to get money to pay for the convention expenses like the rooms one needs, booth space.

Where the concept of swag comes in, and another avenue of PR, is setting up an auction for a charity angle. That can be a way to write off con expenses and create another deduction.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Ironically, I was talking about this very thing just the other day. The points brought up are all good ones. Judging by what Peter is posting, pay particular attention to what he's saying.

In terms of the vendors... yes they always pay something for the tables / space they use. Think of it this way: if you are paying to book extra space for a dealer room, you'd want to be able to pay for it easily enough. Done right, the benefit of a 'dealer' room won't have to come out of an attendee's pocket. This might mean they'll have a bit more money to spend in the dealer room. For the Vendors... in some cases, this is easy advertising. A nominal fee per table and perhaps a price break for several tables might be a good way to go. Things like product instead of a fee might work too. These in turn can be 'auctioned' off to help pay for the con.

Other benefits from being a vendor? Well, give the vendor a couple of passes. He's probably not going to be alone and the vendor and who-ever is helping might also be able to enjoy an event or two during a weekend.

The only thing I'll add though is make sure there is a noticeable chunk of time between the events to 'encourage' people to go through the dealer room and , if possible, have the attendees be forced to go through the dealer room on their way to various events. You don't want the dealer room to be isolated because if there's less traffic, there is less buying.

Where is this proposed con going to be anyway?

M

EDIT - Peter's recent post came in while I was writing this one.
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

*chuckles* Ole Pete's been part of con groups, volunteer historical groups, and similar sorts of groups for a very long time. Which is why I avoid being part of any such thing like black death, lately. But I do have a generally good idea on how such things go together, and what it takes to make them work.

Which brings me down to one essential word. Communication. There needs to be a lot of it. Among the staff, among the prospective guests, among the vendors, and certainly having a clear range of contact info for the various areas of the convention on the website is most important.

Oh, and to further Moriarty's point, a convention booklet can be useful too. That's your key device in putting down information on events at the convention. But its also a neat way to pay for the convention since some vendors wont mind paying a nominal fee for ad space.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

is it worth while trying to cater to a specific demographic? the "mature" players who may appreciate having liquor being served or may afford a higher ticket price for a buffet style dinner rather than rushing out to find fast food? or a family-con, where events, time slots etc are tailored to first time players, or parents bringing their kids? or any other niche marketing ideas?

or is a more generalist, come one and all still the best way to go?

the con is still top secret! but once I can, I'll share the details here. I'm planning on running 16 straight hours of C&C.

Cheers,

J.

Quote:
is it worth while trying to cater to a specific demographic? the "mature" players who may appreciate having liquor being served

This may be a serious issue, both logistically and legally. Also, it could be a very horrible idea to sell liquor to a con audience... they're rowdy and loud and rude as is (at least, at the large gatherings) so I know that I would be avoiding any areas where this was happening -- I get that at my own games with 5 other people; I don't want it with 500, 99% of whom I don't even know.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

serleran wrote:
This may be a serious issue, both logistically and legally. Also, it could be a very horrible idea to sell liquor to a con audience... they're rowdy and loud and rude as is (at least, at the large gatherings) so I know that I would be avoiding any areas where this was happening -- I get that at my own games with 5 other people; I don't want it with 500, 99% of whom I don't even know.

well, the plan is for a hotel, so it would be catered, and managed by the hotel - IF this was a direction we want to take.... that has NOT been decided yet, just floating ideas... Insurance, age of majority, liability is handled through event insurance, the licensed bar tender employed by the hotel and the hotel itself...

Cheers,

J.

How big do you want this thing to be, jmann? Do you want to do this for commercial gain? Or is it just because you want to play games?

You can have a gamer gathering without going to all of the trouble of running a formal con - you just need a place to do it and a group of people who are interested. The rest will fall into place.

I've run a small gathering like that myself - about 10 people. We cycled through 4 different DM's (and 4 different game systems) over the course of Fri Night, Sat Morn, Sat aft, Sun morn). It was nice that everybody could participate together - that goes away when you get into multiple events running simultaneously (i.e. more than 10 or so people).

You might also think about latching on to an existing con, and running your games there. Saves a lot of work doing the organizing, and you still get to do the fun parts (run games for others, play in others' games, etc.).

There's an annual con called Pandemonium that's held in Toronto (February, I think?). I've been to that a few times. It's sort of mid-sized, about 300 people, I guess. Mostly current edition D&D, but there's a mix of games - I even saw Runequest being played one year.

There's also a small con up in Peterborough, called Phantasm ( http://phantasm.pfga.ca/index.html ) that I think might check out this fall (late Sept). They take over the Peterborough Public Library for a weekend (don't laugh). It seems like a small, intimate sort of affair (maybe 20 or 30 people?) although they make space for a couple of dealer tables, and I see they've had Ed Greenwood come out as a celebrity guest, in the past. Wide mix of games there.

I'm sure there are others, I just haven't found them yet.

been to panda a few times. sadly, think it's no defunct.

the space that we have is good for +125 people to attend. so, I guess a small-sized mini-con

it'll be held in a hotel where we have access to a central lobby, and around 4 or 5 different rooms (for different events).

cheers,

J.

jman5000 wrote:
well, the plan is for a hotel, so it would be catered, and managed by the hotel - IF this was a direction we want to take.... that has NOT been decided yet, just floating ideas... Insurance, age of majority, liability is handled through event insurance, the licensed bar tender employed by the hotel and the hotel itself...

If you want to serve alcohol, I would recommend you designate an area where you must be over 18 to enter and serve it there. I wouldn't let people take it out into the main gaming areas because this can cause many different problems. This solves two issues. One is maintaining a family friendly atmosphere. The alcohol and drinking is restricted to one area and if you don't want to participate, don't go in the area. It also allows people to enjoy drinking with friends in a controllable environment.

Hunin wrote:
If you want to serve alcohol, I would recommend you designate an area where you must be over 18 to enter and serve it there. I wouldn't let people take it out into the main gaming areas because this can cause many different problems. This solves two issues. One is maintaining a family friendly atmosphere. The alcohol and drinking is restricted to one area and if you don't want to participate, don't go in the area. It also allows people to enjoy drinking with friends in a controllable environment.

Ya. I've been a bit wary about this myself a time or two. Gaming an alcohol don't mix very well. Segregating the drinking section is a solution, although its not perfect.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

If you're hosting in a hotel, and the hotel has a bar, then it's already taken care of, isn't it?

If someone wants a drink, they'll go hang out in the bar and drink.

yup. all that is true. was just floating a potential idea of hosting a "mature" con, in which you could go up to a bar, get a drink, and then go to your seat and play. no minors invited.

same as we were equally floating the ideas of a "traditional" con

and having a "family con" where there are huge discounts for brining family to the event....

All trying to modernize, differentiate and make something a bit different

Cheers,

J

It's been a long time since I've been to a general gaming con, but I've logged hundreds of hours at ASL tournaments (which share some characteristics). My wife also organizes events for her professional association. Here's an attendee / friend of the organizer's perspective.

- Make sure you have enough staff so someone can be manning the front desk the entire time while you or whomever is empowered to make decisions for the organizers can be off dealing with crises - with the hotel, with attendees, with vendors, or whomever.

- Hotels typically don't make that much money on the conference or ballroom rental. Instead, their model is to make most of their money on food and guest room bookings.

- Because food is a big part of their profit margin, expect the hotel to insist they be the only provider of food, or to charge a steep fee to allow outside food to be brought in. There are exceptions to this rule, but it's the standard.

- The price of hotel food will shock you if you've never dealt with catering before (and maybe even if you have, depending on the hotel).

- Be prepared to lay out a substantial portion of the fees up front, or on the first day, especially as a new customer. I seem to recall 50% of the estimated final bill due up-front (usually early on opening day) being standard.

- Someone will have to sign a whole bunch of contracts and other legal documents and assume financial or other liability. If the club or other organization doesn't have some formal, legally recognized status as an entity, that's probably going to mean that one or more individuals are going to be personally on the hook.

- Insist on an itemized bill for all expenses when you settle accounts.

- If at all possible, talk to more than one venue, and let them compete for your business.

- If you're going to have a section open for round-the-clock gaming, make arrangements for extra trash pick-ups by the housekeeping staff.

I can't say I've ever personally gone to a convention due to the guests; I've always gone to play games, and I suspect that's the biggest focus for most attendees. In my experience, people want to play new games, or perhaps old games with new people, shop, and socialize with other gamers.

Good luck with your venture!
_________________
"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."

Well, there might be a concern with "mature" cons -- no kids who beg their parents to buy this and that, and you might actually cut down the size of the audience because the parents might want to take the munchkins -- I know I would I had any.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

One thing, a whole bunch of the conventions I go to locally have a 'party floor' at the hotel. That's where, at night, while the kids are playing Magic in the gaming room (or sleeping), the parents can go and get quite sqiffed.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

We didn't do a sponsor....or rather, my wallet was the sponsor.
We sold dealer space by the table. About $50 per 200 sq ft of area. This included door passes for two people. Additional passes were $10 per person.

We also offered advertising space in our con booklet at $25, $50, $100 rates (quarter, half, and full page) beyond a simple listing.

As someone else said, drinking and gaming is not a great mix...and being on government property, we were under legal obligations to encourage any such activity off site.

Mistake we made the first year (or rather I made since I was the chair) was trying to do too much and get too fancy right out the gate. Didn't make that mistake the second year and did much better overall.

Our first year attendance was 80 or so. Second year was 130 with limited advertising.
_________________
The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

Inviting some famous folks to demonstrate their latest products can work in several good ways. It gives a chance for people to play with a master GM, and gives the GM in question an opportunity to promote their latest products.

If you're thinking Toronto area, Patrick D Laws might be interested. Not sure exactly where Ed Greenwood lives, but I've seen him attend a few cons in the area. There are probably others, if you can figure out who they are. Normally you have to pay their way, but if they're already local, then it's just admission and maybe a meal or something.

The advertising idea is good - I can think of a half a dozen TO stores that might be willing to buy ad space in a pamphlet or program book.