Troll Lord Games

Hey gang,

Ok, so every time I pop by the TLG website I see an image of the new M&T, and each time it brings all those negative feelings back in force (as I've said in other threads, I completely loathe the new no-style, look-just-like-everything-else-on-the-market covers, to the point that I honestly don't want to get any of the new books when they come out. Silly, unfair, but just my honest gut reaction).

Anyhow, I remembered something Steve told me during one of our numerous sessions that involved me pestering him on the phone while he had work to do, and him graciously being polite and not faking an emergency. (Chuckle) We'd been talking about the leatherettes (first run versus later, simpler versions). Turns out TLG can pretty much customize and print anything you want, it just might cost a bit more. Ok, so maybe a lot more. Still, this gave me a few of ideas...

1. Release two versions of each new "core" book. One with the "classic" style cover, and one with the ***Cough*** new ***Cough*** cover.

(Feel free to ditch the map element if you want to update the classic covers, but a parchment-like background and antiquated tone are simply a must.)

or

2. Let people order the classic cover versions, and then print & ship when there are enough orders to justify a print run.

or

3. (This is my fall-back plan if everything else fails) Release a PDF version right away, so we can buy 'em, make our own covers, and head over to Lulu or Kinkos.
So, whuddya think?

Too expensive for TLG to do. I don't know about the overhead but I'd say having a set of options for what the covers could looks like would be counter productive to the business end of things.

Also to all who keep dragging this cover thing up I have one word: Deal.
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The Lord of Ravens
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I missed why they are changing the covers but I kind of like the new look but I also like the old one as well.

I see one advantage to having a new design for this next printing as it seems the greatest amount of changes and errata correction is taking place and will help avoid confusion of which printing they have.

Lord Tryon wrote:
I missed why they are changing the covers but I kind of like the new look but I also like the old one as well.

Because, sometimes ya just have to shake things up a bit, design wise.

Fresh coat of paint makes the artsy sort a lot less bored.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Yeah, I'm kinda not liking the new look either.
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When I dont like something, I just don't buy it, but I'm silly that way I guess
The new covers suck? Keep yer 2nd or 3rd prints, they've got no expiration date on em.

Breakdaddy wrote:
When I dont like something, I just don't buy it, but I'm silly that way I guess
The new covers suck? Keep yer 2nd or 3rd prints, they've got no expiration date on em.

True, but some of us like to buy the new printings because we like supporting TLG in a financial manner too. Not liking the new covers makes it a wee bit harder for us to justify doing so. If Peter is right about how the cover will actually look when printed, versus how it looks online and in the catalogue, I'll have no problem buying yet more copies. If the cover still looks as ugly to me, then I may have too many problems justifying buying new copies.

Bottom line, despite the love of the game, TLG needs to sell copies to keep making more money to do more stuff.

So if at the very least they can make a leatherette version, or "collectible old cover" version, I'll know at some point I can justify putting more of my money in the Trolls pockets.

So I hope Peter is right and I'll be OK with the final cover color shading of the new printing, but if not I hope the Trolls can do something to provide me with a cover I will like. I would imagine putting the old cover on it would be the most economical way to go.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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gideon_thorne wrote:
Because, sometimes ya just have to shake things up a bit, design wise. Fresh coat of paint makes the artsy sort a lot less bored.

Very true.

Plus, it can cause some folks who have never really taken notice of a product before to do so. That's why so many national brands change their trade dress more often than most folks like.
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John Adams

It's definitely a tough scenario for those of us that feel a form of "loyalty" to the company. On one hand, we want to buy each new item and support the company (thus helping to ensure more new product down the road), but when you really just can't stand something, and it happens to be a core item you just have to have to play the game (eg. a Player's Handbook), then we're faced with a real pickle of a decision.

New printings also tend to correct previous errors, as well as present new content (however minimal), so it's always best to use the most recent one.

I think my biggest problem with the new covers is twofold. First, they don't come across as "new" to me, they look like they're trying to emulate the bulk of what's already out there for 3.5/4E. It feels the same as when I saw half of my favorite game companies drop their existing lines and crank out new d20 versions of the same games, which flopped, so yeah, maybe it's a knee-jerk thing on my part due to similar bad memories. Secondly, I've always seen C&C as "a modern rendition and update of the little-brown-book era, incorporating 30 years of experience and streamlining." Other games have "updated" AD&D, or copied 2E & 3.5, but only C&C has managed to bring back the feeling and atmosphere of when it all began in the '70s with the little white (or brown, if ya go way back) boxed sets. That's important to me, and up 'til now the books have reflected that atmosphere with their old-style, antiquated appearance. I think that's the real reason I'm upset about the new covers. I don't want to lose that, or see C&C become "just another D&D clone."

In the end I suppose that, if no "classic" style printings are forthcoming, I'll just do 'em myself as-needed. That'll cover the "support the company" aspect (buying the PDFs), and then I can just export the cover art from one of the older PDFs, insert a different pic in the middle, bundle it back up and have Lulu print it up for me.

Yeah, I already have like 11 PH's from the first 3 printings, and 2 M&T's. Its not like I need more, I would just like to buy more, primarily to support the company. I understand and agree with the need for the change, but I do hope something can be done for those who don't like the current new look. Plus I like looking at my book shelves and see a dominantly uniform look. I put all the "colored" modules all the way to the right just so they don't ruin it, even though their proper order would put them in the middle, or at least closer to it.

I guess if I buy these new ones I'll have a set to group my colored modules with. Still out of order. You have no idea how irritated I am that I can't group my "A" modules or Haunted Highlands modules together with matching color anymore. Its like the old "red headed step child" thing. You know they should belong together, but they don't look like they go together anymore.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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gideon_thorne wrote:
Because, sometimes ya just have to shake things up a bit, design wise.

Fresh coat of paint makes the artsy sort a lot less bored.

Which is funny coming from the guy who has the sig that he does.
And didn't you say in another thread that you were backed up? Think of all the time you could've saved by keeping the old cover!
I like the mew cover, though.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

For perspective there are those of us who were never that crazy about the old look of the covers. While I liked the art that was about it. I see the new covers and to me it is much better than the old. The only thing I don't like about the new covers is the font choice. I had hoped the old C&C logo would have stayed. However, that is a minor gripe for a much needed cover revamp.
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The Lord of Ravens
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I agee. I think the map was awesome in the background, but I feel it made the covers too busy, consdiering the art overlay. One or the other would have been great, but even muted the map caused a bit of distraction, to me.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Lord Dynel wrote:
Which is funny coming from the guy who has the sig that he does.

That's about a game not needing fixing. Art is an entirely different subject.

Quote:
And didn't you say in another thread that you were backed up? Think of all the time you could've saved by keeping the old cover!

Yup. And I'll be in a funny farm on good meds from going insane from lack of change.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Agreed, the new editions have a definite '4E' look, and the red really drives me crazy.

If they're offered as leatherettes I'll get 'em, but as is I'm not sure.
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Anyone who has the 3rd printing has no need to get the 4th, so it really shouldn't be a problem.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

gideon_thorne wrote:
That's about a game not needing fixing. Art is an entirely different subject.

Agreed, but by definition, the minor fixes to text, slight changes in equipment lists, changes in poison rules and upcoming class tweaks do constitute changes and a revision to the game.

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The Lord of Ravens
My blog

Julian Grimm wrote:
Agreed, but by definition, the minor fixes to text, slight changes in equipment lists, changes in poison rules and upcoming class tweaks do constitute changes and a revision to the game.

'Slight' does not a revision make. Nor does what amounts to typo fixes.
Now, the kinds of revisions I made for my own campaign, that could be justifiably called a new 'edition'
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

gideon_thorne wrote:
Anyone who has the 3rd printing has no need to get the 4th, so it really shouldn't be a problem.

I thought the 4th had changes to classes, etc.?
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slimykuotoan wrote:
I thought the 4th had changes to classes, etc.?

It does, but that still doesn't change the accuracy of my statement.

Course, to clarify. If folks are fine with the classes as they are, and the 3rd printing as it is, the underlying system is going to be the same in the 4th printing. A few tweaks to existing classes, and some spells for the illusionists are going to be the major extent of the changes, other than typo fixes.

But as I said, if what's in the third printing doesn't bother you, your not going to miss anything important by not getting the 4th.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

gideon_thorne wrote:
'Slight' does not a revision make. Nor does what amounts to typo fixes.

It depends on how close you want to hold to the definition of the term.
Unlike most though I do not hold the term revision nor edition as hostile. In fact, I see them as needed tools of a design process. Maybe it has been from working with too many draftsmen, toolmakers and such that has influenced my P.O.V.
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The Lord of Ravens
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gideon_thorne, I am a HUGE fan of the artwork in the PHB, that said, did you do the artwork for the 4th printing?
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slimykuotoan wrote:
gideon_thorne, I am a HUGE fan of the artwork in the PHB, that said, did you do the artwork for the 4th printing?

Yes.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Any new interior artwork added?
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slimykuotoan wrote:
Any new interior artwork added?

Not sure yet.

Folks wanted a larger font, which means less room.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Well, I think the artwork is awesome for C&C to date, and your work gideon_thorne is pretty much my favorite of any fantasy art peroid.

But that freakin' red-coloured band across the top and bottom of the books just turns me off for some reason.
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I felt the font for the 2nd printing was great, but I can certainly understand if some players want larger font for an easier read, etc.
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I think its the garish shade fo red that turns me off. I think Gideon posted before that the shade will be darker on the actual print, more like a rusty red or something. If I am remembering that correctly then I may be OK with it if its darker, but if it is staying that brighter and garish red, I may refrain from buying any copies. I'll get "Of Gods and Monsters", but I won't be buying any PH's or M&T's. Unless its darker.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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Julian Grimm wrote:
Agreed, but by definition, the minor fixes to text, slight changes in equipment lists, changes in poison rules and upcoming class tweaks do constitute changes and a revision to the game.

Agreed. And I'm curious as to what the "impression" will be amongst the gaming community - will it be snap-judged as a "new edition?"

And I was just messin' Peter. I know what your sig means...it's just too funny looking at it and your earlier post together. "We need to shake things up a bit...but we got it right the first time!"
Peter - do you know if they're going back to the non-glossy paper?
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Lord Dynel wrote:
Peter - do you know if they're going back to the non-glossy paper?

I'm not Peter, but yes, the glossy paper wasn't supposed to happen in the first place, and they are going back to "normal" paper. Even Steve has posted about this particular issue.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames