Cost of RPG books these days, whats up?

flyingcircus · Post by **flyingcircus** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:26 pm

Ok, I have been a longtime rpg GM and have noticed that the cost of most books is always going up, this is natural with inflation but I am starting to wonder why the page counts have not gone up as well with the cost, for example: A typical Mongoose RPG book runs on average $24.95 for anywhere from 100 - 120 pages, in a HB cover, a little over priced I think considering most of them are in B&W only. I see this all over the industry, except for a few game companies, dont get me started with WoTC who still puts out garbage.......

The only exception I can say is with Palladium games, I picked up the new Robotech series of books for $16.95 each all PB B&W with over 180 - 300+ pages each, so how can they keep cost down and delivery a quality game with massive material inside? can't the rest do the same, I would like to see a return to the old days of saddle stitched RPG books with decent page counts and under $20.00 again, these economic times you would think would get more companies doing a little book rethinking, IMO.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:28 pm

I blame the Spanish Inquisition.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:29 pm

Palladium books are almost always softcover, and their layout and design team costs are probably nil based on the fact that they haven't changed them in 25 years. Plus, thier margins are probably pretty small comparitivly speaking.

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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:30 pm

flyingcircus wrote:
this is natural with inflation but I am starting to wonder why the page counts have not gone up as well with the cost

Oh..and because if the page count goes up it's not really inflation.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:44 pm

flyingcircus wrote:
Ok, I have been a longtime rpg GM and have noticed that the cost of most books is always going up, this is natural with inflation but I am starting to wonder why the page counts have not gone up as well with the cost, for example:

Because the cost of producing a book has also gone up. That's the simple answer.

Even the two C&C core books should be higher priced than they are considering print costs and the like.
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CKDad · Post by **CKDad** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:28 am

Peter nails it. Printing costs are much, much higher than they were back when many of us started in the hobby. It's certainly not that the publishers are raking in huge piles of cash - their margins, for the most part, are vanishingly small these days.
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:55 am

I was just reading on another site where the cost of color printing has increased by over 50% which leads to a 75-100% increase at the counter by the time all is said and done.

Paper, ink, labor, transportation, energy, etc...all up with the crazy economic flux.

What surprises me is how everyone else was so surprised when all this hit. You watch the economic rubber band stretch and stretch and stretch for so long...it's inevitable that it IS going to snap back. Or break.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:59 am

Course, back in the day I recall getting comics for .35cents a pop. Now they are $2-3 each. Should'nt be too shocking that the price of everything else is going up.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:22 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Course, back in the day I recall getting comics for .35cents a pop. Now they are $2-3 each. Should'nt be too shocking that the price of everything else is going up.

Wow! I started doing something before Gideon! I remember $.20! I'd still have them if not for Hurricane Hugo!
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:59 am

candy bars for a nickel or dime. comics for fifteen to twenty five cents.

A 32oz box of cereal was just over a buck. pick ups were 5,000. a nice 3 bedroom, 2 bath 1400 sq ft house with a quarter acre was around 50k.

absolutely scary increases since the early 70s.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:10 am

Go0gleplex wrote:
a nice 3 bedroom, 2 bath 1400 sq ft house with a quarter acre was around 50k.

absolutely scary increases since the early 70s.

What's absolutely scarey is the cost of living up your way if that was the '70s price.

I aint never movin!

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:48 am

I always get a little ticked when I think about this. I think that, and maybe I'm off base, that sure - inflation and priniting costs go up. But I think there are some "hidden" increases with some companies that they try to wrap up in the "costs are rising" reasoning in hopes that people won't notice. I think of the perfect example - the $19.99 Core D&D books when 3e first came out. It wasn't long before they shot up to $29.99 and I can hardly believe that prices went up that high, that fast.
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:26 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
I think of the perfect example - the $19.99 Core D&D books when 3e first came out. It wasn't long before they shot up to $29.99 and I can hardly believe that prices went up that high, that fast.

I was always under the assumption that price increase was well-known from the get-go... i.e., WotC hoped to encourage folks to pick up the books when they were first released by saying that those prices wouldn't stay that way for long.

Is that true or am I delusional?
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Lord Tryon · Post by **Lord Tryon** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:41 pm

Frost wrote:
I was always under the assumption that price increase was well-known from the get-go... i.e., WotC hoped to encourage folks to pick up the books when they were first released by saying that those prices wouldn't stay that way for long.

Is that true or am I delusional?

No you are correct they sold it at that price as a lose leader to attract people to buy their other products. Then after they gained a foothold in the market they increased the price to where is was profitable for them to continue selling it.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:59 pm

That may be the case. I don't know if it explains why they totally went away from a PB format and why the page cost went up so high...even after the PHB. *shrug*
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:08 pm

Lord Tryon wrote:
No you are correct they sold it at that price as a lose leader to attract people to buy their other products. Then after they gained a foothold in the market they increased the price to where is was profitable for them to continue selling it.

Ya... they went as far as announcing the low price when they released 3rd edition and was seen as an additional incentive for people who became disillusioned with how the TSR was doing business in the 90s and as a way to possibly sway older gamers to pick up the new books to check it out. I think it worked to a degree and at that time.

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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:27 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
That may be the case. I don't know if it explains why they totally went away from a PB format and why the page cost went up so high...even after the PHB. *shrug*

Lord Dynel = WotC's #1 Fan
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:49 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
I always get a little ticked when I think about this. I think that, and maybe I'm off base, that sure - inflation and priniting costs go up. But I think there are some "hidden" increases with some companies that they try to wrap up in the "costs are rising" reasoning in hopes that people won't notice. I think of the perfect example - the $19.99 Core D&D books when 3e first came out. It wasn't long before they shot up to $29.99 and I can hardly believe that prices went up that high, that fast.

They might have given an initial discount, but all that interior colour and paper type costs more.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:39 pm

Frost wrote:
Lord Dynel = WotC's #1 Fan

Heh. Maybe before the "4dventure" bullsh!t.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:43 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
They might have given an initial discount, but all that interior colour and paper type costs more.

True, true. I'm not disputing that...only the "sudden" increase without much reason.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:46 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
True, true. I'm not disputing that...only the "sudden" increase without much reason.

*grins* It has a perfectly sound reason. Marketing. That low introduction offer. Then the spending addiction kicks in with all the other 'must have official rulz' mentality.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:59 pm

Heh. Why am I not suprised it has little or nothing to do with the rising cost of material?
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:16 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
... True, true. I'm not disputing that...only the "sudden" increase without much reason.

When the books first came out at the low price, they stated that it was temporary and it would be going up to $29.95 after the three books were released. Release of the core set for 3.0 was also not simultaneous. I think what WOTC did back then was great!

This was before things went bad... (well before 3.5) and before thing went horribly wrong (4th Edition).

Regardless, it wasn't sudden and it did take a bit of time for WOTC to morph into that hideous evil. But there was a time, brief as it was, that I held WOTC in a much higher regard than the 90's TSR.
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Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:31 pm

I was another one who did not mind WotC when they first started their D&D 3.0 line. It was all those additional supplements (i.e. prestige classes) and the rapid release of the 3.5 version in such a short time that soured my opinion of them.

That's when I went back to playing ICE products (MERP & HARP) until I was brought back into the fold by the Troll's wonderful products.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:26 pm

Eh, I had a long reply, but I deleted it. I think it comes down to a matter of opinion. I don't think I ever said anything about WotC being "evil." Over a couple of years the page count went down, and the price went up or stayed the same. What I feel may be undue cost increases might not be for the next guy.

And I'm not picking on WotC specifically...some other companies do it as well. But I think it comes down to quality, too. I think that WotC's recent offerings (for example) are not of the quality where they demand the price they are asking. C&C, on the other hand, does () because I'm liking what they're releasing and even if they increase their prices, I feel that it'll still be worth it. Which brings my post full circle...in the end, it comes down to opinion.
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:37 pm

I've gotta say, Troll Lord products are really economical in price; I started a new C&C group recently and no one had quams about going out and getting copies of the PHB, so much so, that most picked up both core books.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:55 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
Eh, I had a long reply, but I deleted it. I think it comes down to a matter of opinion. I don't think I ever said anything about WotC being "evil." Over a couple of years the page count went down, and the price went up or stayed the same. What I feel may be undue cost increases might not be for the next guy.

And I'm not picking on WotC specifically...some other companies do it as well. But I think it comes down to quality, too. I think that WotC's recent offerings (for example) are not of the quality where they demand the price they are asking. C&C, on the other hand, does () because I'm liking what they're releasing and even if they increase their prices, I feel that it'll still be worth it. Which brings my post full circle...in the end, it comes down to opinion.

Hehehe... You may not have said anything about WOTC being evil but I tend to lean that way regardless.
Prices are rather high for many things and I will agree. Some are closer matched and some are easily lower than they could be. In those cases, it's partially a decision made like in TLG's case. Without a doubt we could be seeing a price increase down the line for C&C core books but thus far, that's been avoided. From what I've read, one reason for this is to help the C&C fanbase grow.

Aside from WOTC, I have to say that I've been rather taken a back at some of the prices such as AEG's Ultimate Toolbox. If you consider the price they are asking is for a softcover, it can really make you think twice before picking up a supplement like that. When your gaming dollar is a bit tighter than it had been, you begin to carefully consider your purchases.

Most of my gaming purchases has been going down in consequence to other economic concerns but I'm still buying. I just am more focused with my purchases lately. Admittedly, I'm still buying WOTC material but this is restricted to the collectible plastic crack they put out (aka D&D Mini's). However, with the new format starting up, my spending there might also be cut down.

M
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:01 pm

Lord Dynel, I was just teasing a bit. You seem to knock WotC at times, but I guess that is usually about 4e. Not being a fan of 4e, I typically concur anyhow. Although I play 3.5, its release did leave a bad taste in my mouth. That had more to do with the way it was marketed though. At first we were told it was simply a revision and it really turned into a new edition (in my mind, 3.5 really should be called 4e and 4e is the 5th edition). Other than that, I don't fault WotC too much for their business practices. They are a business, after all.

C&C is certainly an economical game. I mean, usually we're talking about a $10-$20 range for C&C products, while it seems everyone else starts at $20.00. I just wish the boys could find a way to get C&C into mainstream retailers. In one of the various podcasts out there, Steve mentions that TLG really tries to keep the price on C&C low because a guy might take a chance on $20 for a book. I think that is smart thinking. I just hope one day to walk into my local Borders and see C&C sitting on the shelf next to the 4e stuff.... hopefully that would result in someone saying... "hmm, never heard of this game.... looks kind of neat... heck for $20, why not?"
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:05 pm

moriarty777 wrote:
I have to say that I've been rather taken a back at some of the prices such as AEG's Ultimate Toolbox. If you consider the price they are asking is for a softcover, it can really make you think twice before picking up a supplement like that.

Robbery!

Highway robbery says I!

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:20 pm

I think a large part of their price increases is in response to Amazon. They have to raise the end price to get a bigger price as publisher.

Sure, it may hurt sales in brick stores, but if 70% of your sales are via Amazon in the first place, the sales lost in the brick stores are likely going to Amazon instead anyways.

So you may as well raise your retail price so you can increase your profits as publisher, IE your cut from Amazon sales will be higher since they will be discounting 34% off of $50 instead of $30 (as a possible example).

Its what I would do to increase my profit margin.
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Cost of RPG books these days, whats up?

Cost of RPG books these days, whats up?

Re: Cost of RPG books these days, whats up?

Re: Cost of RPG books these days, whats up?