How I miss thee, C&C

Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:27 pm

Don't get me wrong, I like 4e more than 3e, and am very thankful to be gaming at all.

But darn if I don't miss the old school, streamlined agility of C&C.

Maybe the next time I don't have full attendance, I'll see if anyone wants to try a one-shot C&C to pique their interest.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:29 pm

I find that beating them with a copy of the PHB until they relent works very well.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:58 pm

So what's your situation, Jyrdan? Have players that don't want to try it? Or did they try it and are not interested? Something else? I'm assuming it's the first, based on your post.

After 4e (and ironically, by players decided they wanted nothing to do with 4e), we continued playing 3.5. But I was looking into where I wanted my gaming budget to go. It went to GURPS and C&C. I finally got my core group to try it and, though it took a few sessions, they all came around. Now my core group plus two new guys are playing a 3.5 game, but that's only to get the new guys acclimated to the table...then a TPK might be in order, to make way for some more C&C goodness.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:09 pm

Sometimes it is a very long, hard road that to get players to downgrade to C&C. I say downgrade, because most players of the 3E and 4E games see C&C as a downgrade. It is hard to change perceptions. Best of luck.

-O
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tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:40 pm

I can imagine those people feeling that way. No feats, and skills for starters. I don't consider it a bad thing, but people largely reared on 3, 3.5, and 4 might. Experience progression is slower with C&C. Maybe there's the appeal of the full-color books from WOTC, as well. Who knows? Even getting people who grew up on early 80's AD&D, basic and expert, and 2nd edition can be difficult. And, that's people who liked 1st and 2nd, hated(but played)3rd(my friend's words-CRAP), 3.5(his words again-CRAP with a cherry on top), and 4E(his favorite edition of them all). It's not that he wouldn't like some things about C&C. People are sometimes reluctant to try new things. I had similar problems getting people into Savage Worlds, but my efforts have paid off in droves. Some of them commented that they've been having a better time(system-wise) playing Savage WOrlds vs. 4E as of late. Mind you, we weren't playing fantasy with Savage Worlds at the time, but you get my point. My advice, don't hit them over the head repeatedly with C&C, but occasionally suggest the one-shot adventure. Make sure you know your sh!t, give some great descriptions during combat, maybe even use figs on a mat(if your folks are accustomed to that), and run them through the best adventure possible. That's all you can do. Hope it works out for you. As long as the people I'm playing with keep clamoring for Savage Worlds, that's what we're going to do. I don't even mention 4E. When they do get a hankering for some fantasy again, that's when I'm going to pull out some C&C. If I create converts for my two systems-of-choice, I'll be a happy gamer indeed.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:48 pm

The reason for some players of the 3E and 4E game to see C&C as a downgrade is because these versions of the D&D game put so much "pwer" in the hands of the player. Instead of classic fantasy games where the player describes that he is going to attempt to do something, and the GM tells him the outcome, the newer games puts all of on the player, and not the GM. This has been both a blessing and a blight. The blessing is that there are codified rules on how to do certain things. The blight (and I think there are many) is that players don't try anything their skills, abilities and powers don't describe. At the same time, players who think this way give themselves perceived power to overrule GMs by saying to them that he or she can't do that because it's not in the book.

This is the reasons that the classic versions of these games are such great tools for the imagination.

-O
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:56 pm

Yeah, folks coming into gaming after the start of the d20 era can be a real pain in more classical gaming. 3e and later usually gets them into a completely different mindset. I'd rather teach a RPG newb C&C than teach a former 3e'er. It's easier to get them into the freedom that the SIEGE engine offers.

Taranthyll · Post by **Taranthyll** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:07 pm

Omote wrote:
The blight (and I think there are many) is that players don't try anything their skills, abilities and powers don't describe.

This has been my experience, exactly, with 4E. After 4E came out I promised my players that I would end my C&C campaign and let them try the new edition of D&D. Although I'm grateful to be on the other side of the GM screen for the first time in about two decades, I'm not enjoying the game very much. Role-playing has ceased entirely in our group, as the players are too busy staring at their character sheets trying to decide which "kewl pwr" to use. At our last session, one player spent several minutes during his turn staring at his sheet, saying "ummm, uhhh, I'm going to... ummm." Finally the DM got frustrated and told him that his character shot the kobold in the neck with an arrow and killed it, then moved on.

I sure miss not being able to just run up to something and hit it with my sword. 4E seems to be a game of tactical combat simulations rather than one of epic story-telling and role-playing.

tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:22 pm

Taranthyll, I totally agree. I'm sure there are some players, and gm's who can still combine descriptions, and role-playing in a 4E session, but I bet that number is dwindling. It does come down to tactical, power-playing in many games. Not my style in the end, but to each his own I guess.

Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:26 pm

DangerDwarf - I'm going to have to try that. Back when I was a kid, I was fond of smacking out-of-line players with a spare DM screen (one of the reasons my 2e screen is a battered mess!).

Lord Dynel - I've talked the system up, but as of yet no one else has expressed interest. When I was getting ready to take over DMing duties (amicably, I might add), I listed C&C as one of the options (as I recall, it was 4e, Lejendary Adventures, Warhammer 2e, and AD&D), but the rest of the group wanted to play the current and supported version of D&D.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:33 pm

Jyrdan Fairblade wrote:
but the rest of the group wanted to play the current and supported version of D&D.

You're in luck then my friend! That IS C&C!!!!

angelius · Post by **angelius** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:14 pm

I dont want to make this seem like a shameless plug here (even though it is I suppose), I'm working on a fantasy RPG currently that's very much old school flavour with tweaks for those looking for "statistical" character progression.

My feedback when running C&C was always - "We dont level enough"...."Whats the point of leveling? We get nothing new."

I'm just lucky I suppose that the BIV magazine has been a success and I'm able to invest the new funds into what I always wanted to do an actual RPG game.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:21 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
You're in luck then my friend! That IS C&C!!!!

Indeed!

Yeah, I got to agree on the codified rules of the last couple of editions being both a good and bad thing. Honestly, I think they are, in theory, wonderful. But in practice, they lack a little (IMHO). I, at first, thought, "man, this is so cool how you can define your character." No, I think it's too defining. That word, define, by it's own definition, means to specify. Well, if a character is a bunch of specifications...it's pretty limiting.

I've told my players, and yeah, even the ones who have played the older editions, that they have to open up, and free their minds. "Unlearn what they have learned," such as it is. It's only then will they realize that they have the freedom to act beyond the limitations that some recent editions have placed on them. To me, that's one of the greatest offerings of C&C.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:38 pm

angelius wrote:
I dont want to make this seem like a shameless plug here (even though it is I suppose), I'm working on a fantasy RPG currently that's very much old school flavour with tweaks for those looking for "statistical" character progression.

My feedback when running C&C was always - "We dont level enough"...."Whats the point of leveling? We get nothing new."

I'm just lucky I suppose that the BIV magazine has been a success and I'm able to invest the new funds into what I always wanted to do an actual RPG game.

I didn't get that, my players knew they get one more point towards saves, any kind of skill check, and to their SIEGE checks when trying unusual "feat like actions".

Now my kids did have a problem with how slowly they advanced, until it pretty much literally hit them one day, that something I had been telling them was true. "Dad, your right! My character has so much history now, he's done so many things, that I feel like I have been adventuring forever! I never felt that way with my "other" characters!"

This came about because they were sitting there talking abut how many things their PC's had accomplished, and comparing it to a couple of epic level characters they had played. The list of monsters and accomplishments for their 10th level C&C characters was about 4 times longer than it was for what their Epic level characters had done. Level 68 Epic level characters. Plus, unlike our (I played in the EPic game too) Epic level characters, our C&C characters still had much more left to do.
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:17 pm

We haven't been playing C&C lately but that is our go-to Fantasy game. My go-to modern game is currently Savage Worlds (this may change now that I've got my grubby little hands on Twilight 2013!) and also Savage Worlds for pulp goodness or space opera style Sci-Fi. Our current campaign is Dark Heresy, which I am personally loving. If you need gritty in-the-dirt RPing, you gotta love the WFRP/DH system. If you don't like this style of play, these systems won't appeal to you.

EDIT: We did notice one thing during last week's DH session: the book is horribly laid out with a practically useless index. The Inquisitor's Handbook is even worse. Hopefully now that FFG is at the helm, this will change for future releases. I have high hopes for Rogue Trader and Deathwatch.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:20 pm

He speaks the truth about Savage Worlds and Dark Heresy.

cinderblock · Post by **cinderblock** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:42 pm

Super +1. DH is awesome and SW is so much fun I haven't had a player who hasn't liked the system and what you can do with it. Course C&C is my fantasy game of choice

Taranthyll · Post by **Taranthyll** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:06 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
I've told my players, and yeah, even the ones who have played the older editions, that they have to open up, and free their minds. "Unlearn what they have learned," such as it is. It's only then will they realize that they have the freedom to act beyond the limitations that some recent editions have placed on them. To me, that's one of the greatest offerings of C&C.

I've tried explaining this to my players but most of them, whose prior rpg experience was limited to 3.5E, just can't get their heads around the freedom. I've explained that their C&C characters can do everything a 3E/4E character can do and more, but for some reason, without a codified list of abilities they just can't grasp the potential.

This does not hold true of the one player in my group who is brand new to role-playing and has learned to play with C&C. Ironically, he grasped the potential in C&C's free-form mechanics and went nuts researching his own spells, attempting his own made-up combat maneuvers, etc. None of the more experienced players ever embraced the system the way he has.