Towers of Adventure & Engineering Dungeons=CK Excellence

Frost · Post by **Frost** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:25 pm

I picked up multiple copies of Towers of Adventure and Engineering Dungeons as birthday gifts for my GM friends. I am very pleased with these products and think they are vastly underrated by the gaming community.

I put these up there with the oft-praised (and rightfully so) Toolbox. One of the great things about C&C materials is that even if you don't play C&C, the stat stuff is so minimal, it serves as a perfect guideline for most FRPGs anyhow.

One of my buddies is running us through a Wilderlands campaign and I imagine both of these products will come in quite handy when the party heads out into the unknown and he needs something to stick in a hex.

I really like how ToA has just tons of "plug in play" stuff, such as NPCs, treasure, etc. ED, on the other hand, provides a great, systematic approach to dungeon design. I like how it works as a logical dungeon generator... each step provides the CK with a rationale... "Why is the dungeon here, because this guy made it. Why did he make it? To do this..." and so on.
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:30 pm

Agreed. Both are excellent products and I've already used both on more than one occasion. I even pulled a ToA base for my Dark Heresy game.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:44 pm

I've only used Serl's Dungeon book. I have to say at first I was just buying it to support TLG. Then I read it. It teaches me nothing new. SO I guess I have learned some things after 23 years.
What I do like about it is what Frost brings up. It makes me really think about what I am creating. It helps me make sure I consider every aspect, and most importantly, to me, it also helps me come up with story aspects that help me make the place feel more organic, alive, real, because it helps me create more depth to the history of the place.

All too often I am rushing. This helps me slow down and take the time to add a few more notations to add the depths that take a location form "just another location in which we kill things and take their stuff" to being a location with history, with meaning, with substance. Which is my measure of being a key difference between a good game and a great one.

Now with Frosts and BD's comments I am going to have to use Towers, which I also thought was just another "support TLG purchase", and it seems I have clearly misjudged its usefulness as well.
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:55 pm

Treebore wrote:
What I do like about [Engineering Dungeons] is what Frost brings up. It makes me really think about what I am creating. It helps me make sure I consider every aspect, and most importantly, to me, it also helps me come up with story aspects that help me make the place feel more organic, alive, real, because it helps me create more depth to the history of the place.

Right, this sums up it up nicely. I don't think Ser's purpose was to teach something new, but rather to help a CK generate a dungeon that has a rhyme and reason it to it. Like you said, it provides a nifty organic process. You end up with a dungeon that has some kind of point.

Treebore wrote:
Now with Frosts and BD's comments I am going to have to use Towers, which I also thought was just another "support TLG purchase", and it seems I have clearly misjudged its usefulness as well.

In a way, ToA is similar to the AGP's "100" products. The various volumes, especially 2 and 3, contain a lot of ready to rock stuff that a CK can use when in a pinch for, say, a treasure horde, etc. In some ways, the tower booklet is almost gravy.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:30 pm

Frost wrote:
Right, this sums up it up nicely. I don't think Ser's purpose was to teach something new, but rather to help a CK generate a dungeon that has a rhyme and reason it to it. Like you said, it provides a nifty organic process. You end up with a dungeon that has some kind of point.

When I want cool treasures I pull out Necromancer's "Mother of All Treasure Tables". Still, I get your meaning.

In a way, ToA is similar to the AGP's "100" products. The various volumes, especially 2 and 3, contain a lot of ready to rock stuff that a CK can use when in a pinch for, say, a treasure horde, etc. In some ways, the tower booklet is almost gravy.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:50 pm

Thank you for the kind words. Engineering Dungeons was intended to provide a more "realistic" simulation of the dungeon-building process, but also to teach a little: have people think about things they might not have otherwise, or to consider how a dungeon factors into the mythology of a world -- I think it provides a richness and depth that might be fun to explore, but is not necessarily required just to craft a dungeon with the tables. People who have been playing RPGs for many years likely don't need such things, but there are those who may. Also, it was my homage to Gary Gygax... his work in the AD&D DMG on dungeons was always an inspiration to me.

So, again, thank you. I am glad a pet project has turned into something more useful than I had thought.
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Buttmonkey · Post by **Buttmonkey** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:18 pm

I had a mixed reaction to ToA. The maps were fairly unnecessary. Is it that hard to draw a circle on the fly and stick in some walls to section the tower off? The montster/NPC encounter material was okay. I really liked the tricks/traps section. I would love to get my hands on a product focusing on that material that is 3-4 times as long. Tricks/traps are the hardest things for me to come up with as a GM, so I really appreciated that resource.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:51 pm

Buttmonkey wrote:
I had a mixed reaction to ToA. The maps were fairly unnecessary. Is it that hard to draw a circle on the fly and stick in some walls to section the tower off? The montster/NPC encounter material was okay. I really liked the tricks/traps section. I would love to get my hands on a product focusing on that material that is 3-4 times as long. Tricks/traps are the hardest things for me to come up with as a GM, so I really appreciated that resource.

Thats why I bought and still have, and treasure, my Grimtooth's Traps books, including Necromancers 3E version. You can never have too may tricks and traps up your sleeve.
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:44 pm

I think the reason I like these products so much is because they are CK toys. Do you really need something like these books to make an adventure? No, of course not. However, they can sort of turn adventure design into a game. Roll here, see what you get, etc. They sort of remind me of a Choose Your Own Adventure book in that sense.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:10 pm

I have both and like them a lot. I have not used them in an actual game, but plan on it in the near future. I think ToA stands on its own as a worthwhile purchase - to me it's an unusual purchase that will find plenty of use in the coming campaigns.

Good purchases all around...and Frost mentioned Toolbox. Hope you like it sir - it's been such a boon to my games.
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dutch206 · Post by **dutch206** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:52 pm

Engineering Dungeons is one of my faves. I am still undecided about ToA.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:24 am

It's a good product, dutch. Will it be as useful as Engineering Dungeons? Probably not. And I guess it also depends on the CK, too. I think it'll be pretty useful in the coming games, though, at least to me. YMMV.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:58 pm

Of the two I think that ED stands up better. My biggest problem with ToA is, as mentioned above, the maps. Several are large open areas with encounter numbers placed. In my opinion this is fine for mini's gaming where you can have start points for each enemy but in the standard non-mini game it can create some confusion.

Description with the maps and the encounter areas can be equally difficult. Do you say you enter a Y x Y room and there are X goblins here or describe each location of goblin, barrel and random detrius?

Where ToA shines is in it's encounter groups, treasure groups NPC's and other things. This is the parts I come back to time and time again. Especially when using ED.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:46 pm

I think the two products offer the same basic thing, but do so from opposite spectra: Towers provides a pre-built and ready-to-use environment to plop down into whatever you have ongoing, in case you have nothing prepared; Dungeons, while possible to use it with existing material, is primarily designed to create from scratch. Each has its purpose, and I personally think they work very well together.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Fri May 01, 2009 4:24 pm

Buttmonkey wrote:
I had a mixed reaction to ToA. The maps were fairly unnecessary. Is it that hard to draw a circle on the fly and stick in some walls to section the tower off? The montster/NPC encounter material was okay. I really liked the tricks/traps section. I would love to get my hands on a product focusing on that material that is 3-4 times as long. Tricks/traps are the hardest things for me to come up with as a GM, so I really appreciated that resource.

I liked the map. And it's not like I got charged extra for it. Box sets are generally ToA priced or higher anyway.

In addition to the Grimtooth's books (Flying Buffalo Games) Treebore brought up there is also the Riddle Room series by Cloud Kingdom Games and Lethal Legacies by Goodman Games (3.x). And you couldnt go wrong picking up Traps & Treachery , either 1 or 2, from Fantasy Flight's Legends & Lairs series.
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Fri May 01, 2009 4:50 pm

The only thing I can't figure out is why two d10s were included with ToA.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri May 01, 2009 4:52 pm

Still a mystery here. The trolls never did comment on that.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 01, 2009 4:54 pm

Everyone likes dice. Maybe Jim had something planned for it, that did not make it to the final product?
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri May 01, 2009 5:01 pm

There are a bunch of random tables, right? Percentile based? 2d10? Percentiles?

To be clear, I have not bought this set yet, so I'm just guessing. Still, like Serl says, people like dice, and they aren't all that cheap anymore, and I bet the 2d10 are usable with the random tables.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri May 01, 2009 5:02 pm

The tables are not percentile based. That may have been the case in the beginning though.
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Fri May 01, 2009 5:23 pm

But there aren't any 1d10, 2d10, or 1d100 tables in ToA. Each PC, Item, etc. is numbered, but that is so you can key in the tower levels. E.g., NPC #264 is in this room, etc. I can only find one table meant for die-rolling and it uses a d6.

Anyhow, I like me some dice, so I'm far from complaining. It was a nice surprise, actually.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri May 01, 2009 5:32 pm

That is strange. Well, I can never have too many d10's! I play L5R!
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri May 01, 2009 6:28 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
In addition to the Grimtooth's books (Flying Buffalo Games) Treebore brought up there is also the Riddle Room series by Cloud Kingdom Games and Lethal Legacies by Goodman Games (3.x). And you couldnt go wrong picking up Traps & Treachery , either 1 or 2, from Fantasy Flight's Legends & Lairs series.

Riddle Rooms are spectacular...just ask my players. One of them (with different colored keys) had them perplexed for a few hours, iirc.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 01, 2009 6:41 pm

There are actually quite a number of riddle / trap / hazard books. I hope to make my own, one day.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri May 01, 2009 6:57 pm

There were supposed to be dice in ToA ?

I got ripped off then! Someone stole my dice!

Seriously though, I did not get any dice.

M
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri May 01, 2009 7:02 pm

That's because you are French Canadian. Maple hockey man... we got your waffles and poutine.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri May 01, 2009 7:32 pm

moriarty777 wrote:
There were supposed to be dice in ToA ?

I got ripped off then! Someone stole my dice!

Seriously though, I did not get any dice.

M

I was too buddy. No pair O' d10s.

-O
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sun May 03, 2009 12:25 am

Lord Dynel wrote:
Riddle Rooms are spectacular...just ask my players. One of them (with different colored keys) had them perplexed for a few hours, iirc.

We played Thieves Island just two months back. It was a Riddle Room adventure book with it's own mini-rules system. We had a blast even though when we beat it at the end we discovered our "points" put us in the lowest catagory of victory. Which didnt dampen any enthusiasm for the next one Altered Images. And two people that played it with us never played a RPG in any form before.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sun May 03, 2009 12:25 am

serleran wrote:
There are actually quite a number of riddle / trap / hazard books. I hope to make my own, one day.

What's the hold up , sheriff?
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun May 03, 2009 6:31 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
What's the hold up , sheriff?

Indeed.

Mine did come with a pair of d10s...a white one and a black one, IIRC. Sorry to hear if anyone missed out.
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