Download as Errata?

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:12 am

Wow. Did I miss something? I'm pretty sure I said on a number of occasions that the new material will be made available. In fact, I know I have. Peter said it would be released as well. When? I can't honestly say.

I generally take at least one month to release a product in pdf after the print product comes out. And by generally I mean GENERALLY because a host of reasons from product placement, pre-orders, to time constraints impact that decision. Sometimes I do the very day its released, some times several months after.

But mostly what impacts the decision is the very thing that will finally determine the 'errata' (a word I singularly detest because it means rules that were written wrong, not grammar mistakes or updates) release date. What might that be you ask? Its the loyal retailers who lay out a great deal of money, up front, with risk to sell these books for me. They deserve some time to sell the hard copies before I release to direct market venues (which is basically what a pdf is). 'Errata' and new printings fall into that category. They don't get to hand out free docs like I do and make their consumers who bought previous editions happy. They have to choose how many books they are going to sell, from old and new, and then put their money forward. Its a risky business.

So out of deference to the retailers I'll hold off at least a month before releasing the updated material. If this is too long for some of you guys I sincerely apologize but I do have other factors to consider.

What form it takes is another thing. Treebore mentions an angle we are strongly leaning toward, putting it in the Crusader. But there will be downloads too I imagine. I can do both. I own the company. My guess is that Society members (Robert hinted at this) will have something special, but the basic rules doc will be released in the not distant future.

So please hold off on the pitch forks until AFTER I do something horrible...it won't be long, trust me, I manage to upset people almost every day...except Peter and Davis they are pretty unflappable...and Mac, he's deaf in one ear and he doesn't hear most of what I say.

Steve
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:26 am

I think it was the earlier 6-12 month delay comment that caused some of us alarm.

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:29 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
I think it was the earlier 6-12 month delay comment that caused some of us alarm.

Peter has a rather dry sense of humor and has worked with me for several years so knows my reaction time is less than sterling at times. But I can see where that would send out alarms.
Steve
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:32 am

Troll Lord wrote:
Peter has a rather dry sense of humor and has worked with me for several years so knows my reaction time is less than sterling at times. But I can see where that would send out alarms.
Steve

I'm so dry I'm half a martini.

Which, I never understood that anyhow? How can you have a dry anything that's a liquid?
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:32 am

And my pre-order is already in so when the updated info is released doesn't really affect me. It just seemed to run counter to the kick-ass for the customers attitude I've grown accustomed to from TLG.

Oh....and how come I don't have my pre-order yet? I'm twitching here man.

Twitching.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:33 am

6-12 months would be amazing, given that means 6-12 years of real time. Come on people! Don't you remember your Troll Time to Real Time integrals?
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:34 am

Troll Lord wrote:
Wow. Did I miss something? I'm pretty sure I said on a number of occasions that the new material will be made available. In fact, I know I have. Peter said it would be released as well. When? I can't honestly say.

I generally take at least one month to release a product in pdf after the print product comes out. And by generally I mean GENERALLY because a host of reasons from product placement, pre-orders, to time constraints impact that decision. Sometimes I do the very day its released, some times several months after.

But mostly what impacts the decision is the very thing that will finally determine the 'errata' (a word I singularly detest because it means rules that were written wrong, not grammar mistakes or updates) release date. What might that be you ask? Its the loyal retailers who lay out a great deal of money, up front, with risk to sell these books for me. They deserve some time to sell the hard copies before I release to direct market venues (which is basically what a pdf is). 'Errata' and new printings fall into that category. They don't get to hand out free docs like I do and make their consumers who bought previous editions happy. They have to choose how many books they are going to sell, from old and new, and then put their money forward. Its a risky business.

So out of deference to the retailers I'll hold off at least a month before releasing the updated material. If this is too long for some of you guys I sincerely apologize but I do have other factors to consider.

What form it takes is another thing. Treebore mentions an angle we are strongly leaning toward, putting it in the Crusader. But there will be downloads too I imagine. I can do both. I own the company. My guess is that Society members (Robert hinted at this) will have something special, but the basic rules doc will be released in the not distant future.

So please hold off on the pitch forks until AFTER I do something horrible...it won't be long, trust me, I manage to upset people almost every day...except Peter and Davis they are pretty unflappable...and Mac, he's deaf in one ear and he doesn't hear most of what I say.

Steve

I think looking at it as, "Hey, Steve! I/we consider this info a "high priority". So please treat it as one." is more accurate.

I also don't get how your saying it competes with the LGS'. WE are not asking for a full PDF of the whole book, just the changed info. So if an LGS store owner is going to feel threatened by a 10 or 15 page PDF (due to the illusionist spells) on a reformatted book with cool new covers then I think they need to take a bunch of sedatives and consider a new line of work.

We are asking for a nice and simple PDF with the limited and specific info nicely formatted with an eye towards it being cut apart and some how added to our older copies, via tape, or whatever ingenious way the fans come up with. Not duplicate copies of the pages from the new PH. Those won't "fit" the look of our old copies.

So I think it is in no way a threat to their sales what so ever. They may need to take some chill pills, but I don't see how it could cost them sales, unless they are looking at persuading/forcing us to buy the new copies in order to even get the info to begin with.
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:35 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
And my pre-order is already in so when the updated info is released doesn't really affect me. It just seemed to run counter to the kick-ass for the customers attitude I've grown accustomed to from TLG.

Oh....and how come I don't have my pre-order yet? I'm twitching here man.

Twitching.

You know, funny you should say that. This 3rd printing is driving me nuts, not because of the new material, but the paper. I really like that new paper in the M&T! It's really sweet!!!

Steve
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:35 am

Quote:
unless they are looking at persuading/forcing us to buy the new copies in order to even get the info to begin with.

They are stores. It is sort of their business to sell you something.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:36 am

Treebore wrote:
I think looking at it as, "Hey, Steve! I/we consider this info a "high priority". So please treat it as one." is more accurate.

Well put Tree.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:37 am

Troll Lord wrote:
You know, funny you should say that. This 3rd printing is driving me nuts, not because of the new material, but the paper. I really like that new paper in the M&T! It's really sweet!!!

Steve

Yeah, the new M&T and its paper are absolutely awesome. I assume our new PHB's will be made of the same wicked cool?

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:40 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yeah, the new M&T and its paper are absolutely awesome. I assume our new PHB's will be made of the same wicked cool?

Yup.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:41 am

serleran wrote:
They are stores. It is sort of their business to sell you something.

There is a fine line between trying to sell us something and extortion/blackmail. Making me feel extorted/blackmailed angers me faster than almost anything else outside of harming my wife and/or kids.

Trying to "force" me to buy the books in order to get the info will anger me. I don't turn into the hulk or anything when I am angered, but it does turn me into a non customer. Its why I don't buy software upgrades to Excel, Powerpoint, etc... I do with the old version until I buy a new computer in which the software happens to be offered as a free extra. If I don't get such a computer, I use openoffice.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:41 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Yup.

You think Walsworth Publishing would pepper spray me if I camped outside of their gates waiting for it then?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:42 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
Well put Tree.

Thanks.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:44 am

Oh, and I know we rabid fans can be a blessing and a curse.

We bitch because we care.

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:45 am

Treebore wrote:
I also don't get how your saying it competes with the LGS'. WE are not asking for a full PDF of the whole book, just the changed info. So if an LGS store owner is going to feel threatened by a 10 or 15 page PDF (due to the illusionist spells) on a reformatted book with cool new covers then I think they need to take a bunch of sedatives and consider a new line of work.

We are asking for a nice and simple PDF with the limited and specific info nicely formatted with an eye towards it being cut apart and some how added to our older copies, via tape, or whatever ingenious way the fans come up with. Not duplicate copies of the pages from the new PH. Those won't "fit" the look of our old copies.

So I think it is in no way a threat to their sales what so ever. They may need to take some chill pills, but I don't see how it could cost them sales, unless they are looking at persuading/forcing us to buy the new copies in order to even get the info to begin with.

Logically of course you are correct. It won't compete. It really can't. The intra web is a bit of myth at any rate, it doesn't generate the vast conspiracy of stolen sales. The lion's share of revenue comes from retailers. PDF has crept up in the ranks, but is still much less than retail sales. Direct is good, the money better of course, but unless you combine all streams still doesn't meet retailer numbers. So what you are saying is true. A doc that 17 people download, or 300 people download, can't really compete with an area's market because the number of people downloading it will be defused over a huge area, impacting stores only slightly, if at all.

So you are right.

But in a market that is witnessing a horrible dirth in sales and in which the retailers are struggling they are looking for ANY reason to explain sales loss. When word gets around via the retailer mailing lists, wzl list, GPA, Delphi Forums and all the other way these folks communicate that we are giving away the new material for free, they will use that as a justification for cutting the line. Why? Well, do the math, if they sell one book they only make about 9.00 bucks. That's not much. That low price point cuts both ways. If they don't sell it they lose that 9 bucks. So basically they step back and cut the line because 1) sales are down and they need to par back 2) I'm giving away free stuff that they are counting on selling the book and 3) the profit margin for the book isn't that great.

And even one retailer carrying the line has exponential value as he is basically paying TLG to advertise our books.

Logically it doesn't add up, but business isn't about all logic, its about struggling with hard decisions. And retailing is very, very risky. So I attempt to tip my hat to the retailer when I can. I've owned a store and managed a store. And it is TOUGH. So I feel for these guys as they do have to compete with a rapidly changing market and market materials.

Does that make sense?

Steve
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:53 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
Oh, and I know we rabid fans can be a blessing and a curse.

We bitch because we care.

And we love ya for it!

I don't think anyone's bitching so much as carrying on a conversation that really only I can answer without me in it. I'm used to that though, I have kids and I'm married. haha

I know folks are concerned about this and its a no brainer for me. Its just when and how...and it won't be direct pages from the book as Treebore mentions. It will have to be a separate doc as the new spells are bled into the text alphabetically.

But we'll come up with something nice.

Maybe put it on a tshirt!!!! LOL

Steve
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:03 am

Troll Lord wrote:
Logically of course you are correct. It won't compete. It really can't. The intra web is a bit of myth at any rate, it doesn't generate the vast conspiracy of stolen sales. The lion's share of revenue comes from retailers. PDF has crept up in the ranks, but is still much less than retail sales. Direct is good, the money better of course, but unless you combine all streams still doesn't meet retailer numbers. So what you are saying is true. A doc that 17 people download, or 300 people download, can't really compete with an area's market because the number of people downloading it will be defused over a huge area, impacting stores only slightly, if at all.

So you are right.

But in a market that is witnessing a horrible dirth in sales and in which the retailers are struggling they are looking for ANY reason to explain sales loss. When word gets around via the retailer mailing lists, wzl list, GPA, Delphi Forums and all the other way these folks communicate that we are giving away the new material for free, they will use that as a justification for cutting the line. Why? Well, do the math, if they sell one book they only make about 9.00 bucks. That's not much. That low price point cuts both ways. If they don't sell it they lose that 9 bucks. So basically they step back and cut the line because 1) sales are down and they need to par back 2) I'm giving away free stuff that they are counting on selling the book and 3) the profit margin for the book isn't that great.

And even one retailer carrying the line has exponential value as he is basically paying TLG to advertise our books.

Logically it doesn't add up, but business isn't about all logic, its about struggling with hard decisions. And retailing is very, very risky. So I attempt to tip my hat to the retailer when I can. I've owned a store and managed a store. And it is TOUGH. So I feel for these guys as they do have to compete with a rapidly changing market and market materials.

Does that make sense?

Steve

Yeah, I see what your saying. I saw a lot of that from gem and jewelry stores when they discovered I was "competition". Never mind my wife and I did custom cuts and designs for each individual customer, something that these stores NEVER did, but they still treated us like the enemy, even though we did not directly compete with them. We did high value customer customized work, and we didn't offer lines of credit. Cash up front.

I used to refer them as the "THE SKY IS FALLING!!" store owners. They couldn't see what was actually causing their store to fail, so they just pointed at the nearest thing and blamed it.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:19 am

Thanks for coming on and explaining things, Steve. It makes this coversation make a lot more sense!
I totally understand the not wanting to cut the legs off of the retailers thing. That was kind of my view of it, but I wasn't able to put it as smoothly as you did. I said in an earlier post that I didn't eny the desicions you have to make in times like this, and your post talking about the finer points of releasing a pdf in response to the books release and the timing of such a move to keep the retailers happy is the kind of thing I was envisioning - but again, you said it much more tactfully than I did.

Thanks for coming on and not only clearing things up, but giving (at least) me a bit of insight!
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Sundog · Post by **Sundog** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:25 am

This is a cool thread; I am pleased and heartwarmed (is that a word?) by its contents.

I'm personally very glad that the updated information will be made available for use by those who must yet, or otherwise simply choose to, hang onto their current prints; this is a grand show of good faith by the Trolls and underlines their attitude toward their customers in what has become a somewhat predatory industry. I am counted amongst those who missed the original announcement and felt some slight concern about the wider changes taking place between the third and fourth prints. While I use the Barbarian and Monk only a little, the expanded Illusionist spells would make quite a difference to my campaign.

I'm sure we can all name a good number of companies who would leap at the chance to try for a repeat sale, even at the risk of turning the customers cold altogether. Some publishers ask "are we being fair?", while others ask simply "will the market bear the cost?".

Keeping the retailers sweet is, of course, the other side of this equation; it's not the reality that counts here, but rather the perception, especially in the eyes of those small number of individuals who have a tendency to perform the Headless Chicken Dance when over-excited. When you're competing for shelf-space, you have to make the retailer feel it's a good bet to put you there.

Nicely done, Trolls.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:35 am

Troll Lord wrote:
Maybe put it on a tshirt!!!! LOL

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:55 am

Oh, and just for kicks...

Troll Lord wrote:
They don't get to hand out free docs like I do and make their consumers who bought previous editions happy.

yell0w_lantern · Post by **yell0w_lantern** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:17 pm

Peter, I think 'dry' refers to how it leaves your mouth feeling - dry as in thirsty or dehydrated.

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:50 pm

Well, thanks Steve for chiming in, While I don't agree, I hear your challenges. Musing here, but I wonder if these "changes" had of been released as an "errata" download (or whatever you want to call it) prior to a 4th printing, would have changed the worldview in relation to retailers perceptions.

I guess, at the end of the day:

is this a new edition or just a new printing with errata changes added to the text?

The great thing about being a consumer is how immediately I can vote on a business decision. Because of this preferential treatment towards retailers, not to those fans who have already spent Hundreds of dollars on product and could be expected to spend hundreds more, I'll be voting with my wallet and stopping my TLG purchases until this updated material is released.

Having already invested in buying multiple copies of the "core rules" not only for myself, but also for other players. Introducing at least 15 people to C&C, purchasing every module and supplement released to date, and been a subscriber to Crusader since Issue #1, It would have been really nice to be allowed access to the same material at the same time without having to shell out another 20 bucks.

Cheers,

J.

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:43 pm

If it's a substantive change, such as revisions to multiple classes and/or sections of the rules, then I have no problem buying at least one new copy of the rules. For minor stuff, such as a few typos or a couple sentences then an errata is good.

Personally, I think the Trolls have been really good to us customers and they'll keep seeing my business as funds allow.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:54 pm

When have they made the errata available? I know Traveller does... but, is it on the website now?
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:00 pm

There's an (I think) old errata in the C&C resources section of the site.

Which brings up the point that I wish TLG hosted their own errata.

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:06 pm

it really is crazy, honestly, that the company that releases a game, doesn't maintain the games errata as a professional, living, sanctioned document. Every single other publisher maintains their own official errata. Sure, fans spot the mistakes and bicker over what is and isn't - that's supposed to happen, but the company must maintain the official list.

We all thanks Traveller for his efforts over the years with his document, but IMO, that should not be his responsibility.

Cheers,

J.

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:23 pm

Robert, Jmann,

You guys are of course 100% correct.

Steve
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